Interesting conversation in the game last night.

[Diesel]

That's the biggest bunch of Bull...

I do think that there is a need to do a psych test, but as I understand it, Atlanta officials met with Shelden while he was here for the NCAA tourney last year.

As far as asking him questions...I gather to learn his BBIQ... I think you can figure that out pretty easily watching him play. For instance, everybody knew that Chris Webber was going to be a very good player that you just couldn't trust in the clutch situation. This played out to be true so often and you knew this was the case after "the timeout". If you're picking do you need to bring Chris Webber in for a workout?

A few years ago, BK was really high on Dwight Howard. Even offered JT and a first for the chance to draft him. Do you think that had Orlando given us the #1 for that package that anything that Howard could have done in the workout Badly would have caused us to say: "NO, we don't want him... I think we need to go with Okafor?"

Obviously not. Paul had his best workout with us, Marvin had a sorry workout with us... BK spent his time conning ownership to pick Marvin.

Like I said, the workouts are meaningless.

So for all of you guys who keep crying about us not working out Shelden..

Would you feel any differently had we worked out Shelden and still picked him???

You'd still hate him.

[TroyMcClure]

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Paul had his best workout with us, Marvin had a sorry workout with us...

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Who is the more ready player?

All I'm saying is that I would like to spend a few minutes with the guy in the work environment he would be in. You don't just hand over the keys to the shop. Unless you want to be like the Hawks. But hey, that's fantasy world stuff. In the real world, your businness has to improve and turn a profit in order to stay around.

[AHF]

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If you are stuck between Durant and Oden, though, you may notice some things that give one player an edge over another. For example, if Oden hits 41 of 45 NBA 3pt attempts that shows you something you didn't know and may push you to select him over Durant if you evaluated them as equal prospects based on the game footage. With Oden you could also see how well his wrist has healed and he may be able to do some things he couldn't a month or two before. There is still some real value to be taken from a workout.

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As BK once said, they get a full complete Physical for every player in the draft. He explained that when talking about a player (I believe Roy or Aldridge) with a bad foot. SO the need for a look at the wrist is moot. As a GM or scout, you already know that if the doctor says it will be fine..even if it's only 30% today, you will have to trust the Doctor's word.

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How would a physical tell you about Oden's perimeter shooting ability or his ability to do things he didn't show at Ohio State? How would game tape of him in the low post show you whether he can handle the ball effectively? I think you and I must not be on the same page on this one. I didn't mention the risk because I thought BK would be able to perform a medical assessment of his recovery based on watching a workout.

While we are talking about workouts, though, what is the possible downside to working out all the players in the range you are looking to draft?

[Diesel]

Why would you want to know if Oden can shoot from the perimeter. NO coach in his right mind would put him on the 3 pt line. ITS MOOT!!! If you were working out YOUNG SHAQ, how much would it matter than he can drain the three pointer? Hell, Shaq can't even hit free throws, would that stop you from drafting him??

Now, this is what I'm saying about the workout. The workout can only give you information about the player's pschological make up and if you want you can run him through superman drills to see in what shape he is in at the time of the workout... But just about everything else you will already have in front of you via health reports, game footage, or notes from where you have already scouted the guy.

As far as these other things that you mentioned, they won't stop you from picking the player. If BK had his mind set that he would pick Shelden Williams, only a bad psyche evaluation would have changed his mind. Weather or not Shelden can hit a three pointer would not have mattered so much.

AHF, I don't understand why you and others try to make so much from a personal visit. Does it change anything that the player has done over his college career?

Since we're talking about that....For those who cry about ROY, let me ask you... If workouts mean so much, what does it mean when your golden Boy Roy pulls out of the workout scheduled for Atlanta?? I mean, this never gets any discussion on this board. Only the fact that we didn't workout Shelden. However, the ROY snub never seems to get any talk... What does it mean?

[AHF]

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Why would you want to know if Oden can shoot from the perimeter. NO coach in his right mind would put him on the 3 pt line. ITS MOOT!!!

If you were working out YOUNG SHAQ, how much would it matter than he can drain the three pointer? Hell, Shaq can't even hit free throws, would that stop you from drafting him??

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This is terrible analysis Diesel.

First, the premise for this discussion is that a team has Durant and Oden rated equally. That was never the case with Shaq. So yeah - knowing that Shaq can't hit free throws could be a difference maker if he is being compared to a comparable player in Michael Jordan.

If you know you want a defensive big man and that no other player is comparable (ala Duncan in 1997) then there is no purpose to working someone out - other than developing relationships by bringing in Van Horn, Chauncy Billups, etc. as well as getting a better scouting report on those guys who you will be competing against. And both those guys made multiple moves around the league for the next five years so clearly having an edge in FA might really pay off if it means you land Billups over the Pistons because of the positive relationship you started back in the draft process.

Second, the reason it is important to know whether a big man can shoot the ball is that it is essential to his ability to play in the high post. Shaq can't play in the high post because he has no jumper. Duncan, Ewing, Robinson and many other centers had that kind of versatility. Why wouldn't you want to know that? If someone calls offering Dwight Howard for your pick wouldn't you want to know if Oden had a whole side of his game that hadn't been shown on game tape because of the role he was asked to play at Ohio State?

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Now, this is what I'm saying about the workout. The workout can only give you information about the player's pschological make up and if you want you can run him through superman drills to see in what shape he is in at the time of the workout... But just about everything else you will already have in front of you via health reports, game footage, or notes from where you have already scouted the guy.

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Aren't you someone who thinks that Marvin showing up out of shape for his workout was a red flag? Why pass up another chance to evaluate not only your top choice but the players around him?

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Since we're talking about that....For those who cry about ROY, let me ask you... If workouts mean so much, what does it mean when your golden Boy Roy pulls out of the workout scheduled for Atlanta?? I mean, this never gets any discussion on this board. Only the fact that we didn't workout Shelden. However, the ROY snub never seems to get any talk... What does it mean?

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Personally, I think it means that word of our promise to Shelden had gotten out. I may be remembering incorrectly but I believe he canceled his workout with us after Shelden shut down his workouts with a promise from the Hawks.

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Again, what is the possible downside to working players out?

[Guest Walter]

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However, Let's say you do have Durant and Oden. Let's say you are the Hawks. Our Biggest Need is a defensive big.

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Our biggest need wasn't just a defensive big (whatever that means) last year. It was certainly more specific than "big" and required a significant talent consideration. I believe our needs fell in this order (all interdependent):

1) a center prospect, preferably a defensive one

2a) talent

2b) a Pg prospect (recognizing JJ's playmaking ability)

4) A starting quality Pf or hybrid Pf/C to help ZaZa if not replace him

The draft didn't have any perfect positional fits. Sene was the only defensive center prospect but he was too raw and his talent too questionable. SW was a talent negative, didn't project well to the NBA, and the need for him with MW and JS at "the forwards" meant diminishing our existing talent. For me that made the nuanced decision easy. While Roy and Foye weren't "pure Pgs", if only because of height and experience at the position regarding Roy, they were next to ideal alongside JJ. Talent-wise they were head and shoulders above the competition. Roy for me was ahead of Foye because he could pass like and had the court vision of a Pg. I believe that I have only been proven correct with this assessment and Portland's consistent mentioning of Roy as their Pg of the future is just one example.

In short, 2a + 2b is > 1 (alone) > 4 (alone).

Anyhow, We picked number 4 on my draft list, not choosing to work SW out alone or against similar others. We got burned which leaves you, Diesel, to say AGAIN "our biggest need is a defensive big". If it were only so easy you wouldn't be saying the same "need" as last year.

It's obviously different with Oden. He's a center with talent. That's 1 + 2a on my list.

Note: a guy like Marcus Williams was more valuable to us in this scenario. Let's say he's not "talented". He still trumps a Pf. as 2b > 4

W

[exodus]

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As Bruce said, Shelden was drafted to play a certain position to fill a certain need.

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Which he can't do because his standing reach is 4" shorter than Marvin. You can't learn something like that from watching game tapes.

[Guest Walter]

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As Bruce said, Shelden was drafted to play a certain position to fill a certain need.

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Which he can't do because his standing reach is 4" shorter than Marvin. You can't learn something like that from watching game tapes.

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What we didn't need the workouts for was the fact that everyone knew SW wasn't athletic enough to make up for such a remarkable reach inadequacy.

Almost everyone, it seems.

W

[Diesel]

With everybody... once he was asured that somehow PTL would get him.

Ask the Charlotte Bobkitten fans about him cancelling on them 2 times and then shutting it down.

[BusBoyIsBack]

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Keep in mind we haven't drafted an All Star in over 20 years. We have to have the worst draft history of any team ever.

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I wouldn't bet against Josh Smith if I were you.

Joe Johnson was traded for draft picks so he might as well count