Is there anyone not for tanking at this point?

[Guest Walter]

We're 7 down with 10 to go. Where tankers thought we be if we did not tank! It's an near impossibility to make the playoffs and the only thing uplifting that can come out of the remainder of the season is the playing of the youngins almost exclusively. A decided part of any tank plan.

Who is still not for tanking, please stand up, say why. I believe all those currently for tanking should refrain from a response and let the few, sickly anti-tankers struggle amongst themselves to explain morality over franchise.

W

[AtLaS]

I think JDU is still on the win bandwagon, maybe someone else. But I see no logical reason NOW for anyone to be on the win bandwagon, there's just no point.

I do, however, think it was ludicrous to think we should tank when there were 50 games left.

[Guest Walter]

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I do, however, think it was ludicrous to think we should tank when there were 50 games left.

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Imagine how well placed we could be had we tanked just before JS returned. We would be top 2 right now in the Oden/Durant sweeps. Maybe you think the 30 games inbetween have all been worth it. I don't. But whatever. We're here now and fortunate to have a shot at 4th place.

W

[AtLaS]

... and ruin their great season's by asking them to play less minutes. JJ wouldn't be an all-star. With 50 games left!! You give up on a season before it's halfway over, ALL the players will want out. That lets the entire league know that your ownership doesn't give a damn. In case you didn't know, players talk to players on other teams. Word gets around, as soon as players on other teams found out, soon EVERYONE would know, and NOONE would want to play for the Hawks.. I can't believe you still stand behind that belief. Plus we still had a ton of injuries at that point and were still close to playoff contention.

Besides, when JJ went out (which would have been a dream come true for you and the Reject), we went on a 4 game winning streak.

Bottom line, when you have 50 games left, you don't pack it in and call it a season, ESPECIALLY when you still have a 35% chance of getting no pick at all, IF you have the worst record. With 20 games or less, fine.

[thescout5]

I don't see to many Cleveland Cavalier players complaining now they have Lebron.

[AtLaS]

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I don't see to many Cleveland Cavalier players complaining now they have Lebron.

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Completely different scenario. They didn't have an all-star in JJ, plus numerous 1sts in Marvin, Smith, Childress, Shelden, and Zaza already on their roster. They had Ricky Davis as their franchise player with no legit draft picks. They picked Dejuan Wagner who was possibly the biggest bust in 10 years. They were in a worse position than the 04-05 Hawks, and we know how bad BK screwed up that draft.

[Guest Walter]

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... and ruin their great season's by asking them to play less minutes.

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By "great season" do you mean the one that had JJ begging for Gasol at the trade deadline and repeatedly publically questioning his team before his injury?

Yes, the short-term wouldn't have been roses. That's why I stressed forthrightness and honesty to the players about the situation. As unattractive as any tank plan is, it's more attractive than no plan and frankly that's what had quiet man JJ about to jump off the Phillips.

Long-term, with Oden or Durant, people not only forgive and forget, they praise. JJ would be at ease. Right now all we've got is the sense that if we try hard we STILL lose. Now that's some kind of character builder I'm sure, but it doesn't build confidence.

W

[Guest Walter]

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I don't see to many Cleveland Cavalier players complaining now they have Lebron.

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Completely different scenario. They didn't have an all-star in JJ, plus numerous 1sts in Marvin, Smith, Childress, Shelden, and Zaza already on their roster. They had Ricky Davis as their franchise player with no legit draft picks. They picked Dejuan Wagner who was possibly the biggest bust in 10 years. They were in a worse position than the 04-05 Hawks, and we know how bad BK screwed up that draft.

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They had Boozer, Big Z, & Ricky Davis so it was bad but it wasn't as bad as you suggest...AND THEY HADN'T TRADED THEIR PICK (unless top 3), they weren't out of salary cap space, and they didn't have our chaos scaring away FAs or our ownership problems scaring away our owners from FAs! Similar year with Lebron vs Oden, Carmelo vs Durant.

I think the difference in talent now favoring us VS the difference in our overall future potential capital situation then favoring the Cavs is at least a push. Lastly, you've seen what Lebron did to a horrible team, made them a mediocre one (who sells tickets like crazy). Add Oden to a not so horrible one like ours and instead of mediocrity maybe we get somewhere. Frankly, I think tanking this year was a perfect storm opportunity for us. Tanking doesn't usually have this level of talent, particularly including the center position, nor is it usually available to teams with our talent level. Instead of last to passable, we could have gone fast from lesser midlin' to rockin' immediately. It was almost like the SA, Duncan situation if we played our cards right. You don't hear anyone from SA complaining.

W

[AtLaS]

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By "great season" do you mean the one that had JJ begging for Gasol at the trade deadline and repeatedly publically questioning his team before his injury?

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No player on this team was going to sit and play less minutes with 50 games to go, just to lose on purpose, to get a higher "chance" at a top 3 pick. There was still a 35% chance to get NOTHING AT ALL! That's IF WE HAD THE WORST RECORD! Plus we had been injured all year at that point, and were still only a few games away from the playoffs. It wasn't illogical to think that we could have went on a decent run once we became healthy, especially with 50 games to go, the run wouldn't have even had to be that great.

[AtLaS]

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They had Boozer, Big Z, & Ricky Davis

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Yeah the 10 and 7 Boozer was GREAT. Ricky is a bench player for every team he's ever played for, and shot 41% that year. Big Z is a horrible defensive player who shot 44% that year. Not one of those was a first round pick. Although Boozer's 1st season was promising, it was nothing to go head over heels over. If you put that team back together, they wouldn't win more than 15 games. It was VERY comparable to the 04-05 Hawk team.

We had an all-star, a #17, #2, #5, and a #6 on our team this year, Cleveland didn't even COMPARE, or even come close for that matter.

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AND THEY HADN'T TRADED THEIR PICK (unless top 3), they weren't out of salary cap space, and they didn't have our chaos scaring away FAs or our ownership problems scaring away our owners from FAs!

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Lmao, that argument goes AGAINST what you are trying to say, and actually helps my point! EXACTLY, they hadn't traded their pick so it was a lot more reasonable to tank (as we did in 04-05) since they didn't run the risk of losing their pick altogether!

What legit FA would have signed with that team??? I would LOVE to know.

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I think the difference in talent now favoring us VS the difference in our overall future potential capital situation then favoring the Cavs is at least a push.

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JJ > BigZ, Davis and a rookie Boozer combined. Throw Josh Smith on top of that, and by themselves they murder the entire 02-03 Cleveland roster. Tyronne Lue is better than any PG they've seen in the last 4 years. Plus, when we still had 50 games left, we hadn't yet traded for AJ, so we still had some considerable cap space. Also, next year Lue, AJ and Lo all come off the books, so that's about 8-10 million more in cap.

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It was almost like the SA, Duncan situation if we played our cards right. You don't hear anyone from SA complaining.

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So in other words you wish Josh Smith or JJ tore an ACL, or had to get microscopic knee surgery in order for a chance at a top 3 pick? Playing them less minutes would not get us to the worst record, or even 2nd worst for that matter.

[Seano]

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Who is still not for tanking, please stand up, say why. I believe all those currently for tanking should refrain from a response and let the few, sickly anti-tankers struggle amongst themselves to explain morality over franchise.

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Damn, you're about a strange one, dude. Seriously, your behavior on this forum is not only obnoxious but it's borderline whacked. I really hope for your own sake that you're more well-adjusted in real life than the person we see on this message board.

Why do you keep going on about this (as you do with every other topic you decide to harangue us about)? What difference does your question possibly make? Why does it seem so difficult for you to understand that people have differences of opinion? Why can't you just accept that fact and respect it, without feeling the need to browbeat them like a total arsehole simply because their opinion might happen to differ from yours? Are you that miserable, or that bored, or that insecure in your own beliefs and opinions....or what the hell is your deal exactly? Can you explain these things for me without going into some random diatribe or rant?

Somehow I doubt it. You're a real piece of work there, Walter....

[Guest Walter]

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Who is still not for tanking, please stand up, say why. I believe all those currently for tanking should refrain from a response and let the few, sickly anti-tankers struggle amongst themselves to explain morality over franchise.

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Damn, you're about a strange one, dude. Seriously, your behavior on this forum is not only obnoxious but it's borderline whacked. I really hope for your own sake that you're more well-adjusted in real life than the person we see on this message board.

Why do you keep going on about this (as you do with every other topic you decide to harangue us about)? What difference does your question possibly make? Why does it seem so difficult for you to understand that people have differences of opinion? Why can't you just accept that fact and respect it, without feeling the need to browbeat them like a total arsehole simply because their opinion might happen to differ from yours? Are you that miserable, or that bored, or that insecure in your own beliefs and opinions....or what the hell is your deal exactly? Can you explain these things for me without going into some random diatribe or rant?

Somehow I doubt it. You're a real piece of work there, Walter....

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Good grief. Thanks for demonstrating what "normal" is for you. After that display of self-control (how much attempted "browbeating of me did you manage to fit in one paragraph against "borwbeating"?), I don't think I'm far off from your apparent standards for yourself.

Their "opinion" is a moralist one and has been proven wrong. I'm a "mad as hell..." fan who can't rightly take his frustrations out on the powers at be, so instead finds fault in those here who reflect our ownership's/managment's incompetence or somehow manage to continue supporting them.

W

[bird_dirt]

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Who is still not for tanking, please stand up, say why. I believe all those currently for tanking should refrain from a response and let the few, sickly anti-tankers struggle amongst themselves to explain morality over franchise.

---

Damn, you're about a strange one, dude. Seriously, your behavior on this forum is not only obnoxious but it's borderline whacked. I really hope for your own sake that you're more well-adjusted in real life than the person we see on this message board.

Why do you keep going on about this (as you do with every other topic you decide to harangue us about)? What difference does your question possibly make? Why does it seem so difficult for you to understand that people have differences of opinion? Why can't you just accept that fact and respect it, without feeling the need to browbeat them like a total arsehole simply because their opinion might happen to differ from yours? Are you that miserable, or that bored, or that insecure in your own beliefs and opinions....or what the hell is your deal exactly? Can you explain these things for me without going into some random diatribe or rant?

Somehow I doubt it. You're a real piece of work there, Walter....

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you put it a little more bluntly or harshly than i would, but i have to agree with this.

i am among the "anti-tank" party. why? i don't know, because i guess i actually want my team to play to win. yes, there would be a CHANCE that would could luck out and get a top three pick to better the franchise in the long run, but i really don't care. i would not follow or support any team that mails it in. that's not to say that i am against playing soloman or some other youngsters more to give them serious playing time to develop their games when there is nothing else to play for. that's like baseball teams calling up their prospects and playing them at the end of the season when they know they won't make the playoffs. that's not tanking, thats developing, as long as they are still playing to win, even if the players out there gives the team less of a chance to win. but to purposely lose games, for a chance at a high pick that's not even guaranteed? if i knew the hawks would tank on purpose for that, then i would honestly hope they would draw the no. 4 pick so that they wouldn't even get to keep it.

sorry if you think my sense of pride or morality is weak, but anyone who honestly pulls for their team to lose are even bigger losers themselves. i'll never convince you to change your opinion, and you'll never convince me to change mine, so we will just have to agree to disagree. and i will continue to skip 90% of these stupid tanking posts again, as i'm sure there will be a couple million more coming, despite the fact that no new light is ever really shed on such posts.

[exodus]

that Jones, Batista, Shelden and Salim should play a lot more and get more opportunities. We agree that Blo and Speedy shouldn't play at all.

I'll leave it at that.

[drzachary]

I'm still an anti-tanker. I'm still of the opinion that sporting contests are things that should be won, not lost. I understand that there is a small chance that the team will not get a possible draft stud by doing so, but on a fundamental level, losing intentionally is poor sportsmanship. Even more importantly than this, I believe that tanking damages the psyche of young players more than losing inadvertently

[Guest Walter]

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I'm still of the opinion that sporting contests are things that should be won, not lost.

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Aside from the above moralistic argument which I can say reduces our ability to win in the future, do you believe that tanking AND Oden or Durant...

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damages the psyche of young players more than losing inadvertantly

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?

W

[AHF]

Why are you assuming we land Oden and/or Durant? I am on the tanking bandwagon at this point in this season, but I have no reason to assume that we will actually get one of those players. We just have a better chance at getting one - albeit a less than 50% chance regardless of whether we have the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. worst record.

[Guest Walter]

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Why are you assuming we land Oden and/or Durant? I am on the tanking bandwagon at this point in this season, but I have no reason to assume that we will actually get one of those players. We just have a better chance at getting one - albeit a less than 50% chance regardless of whether we have the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. worst record.

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I'm not assuming it, never have. I simply asked a question.

W

[bird_dirt]

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Aside from the above moralistic argument which I can say reduces our ability to win in the future, do you believe that tanking AND Oden or Durant...

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damages the psyche of young players more than losing inadvertantly

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?

W

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yes.

for me, personally, you can't put the moralistic argument aside. that is a huge part of the equation.

that's like asking, "aside from the moralistic argument, is adultry wrong?" "well, i'm destroying my current family life, and i may damage the psyche of my children, but in the long run i may end up with an even better woman for a wife, and the kids should come around eventually to recognize that." quite a bit extreme, i know, but principles do apply, and they do matter.

[BusBoyIsBack]

I have shamefully turned to the dark side but I still have respect for those of us that still want to see wins and honestly I won't be too pissed if we finish off on a winning note.

So I guess Im not a hardcore pro-tanker but I've definitely conceded the fact that we have zero shot at the playoffs.