To play Devil's Advocate...

[ATL_BALLER]

Are we being too hard on him, too impatient, with unreasonable expectations?

He has brought in arguably the two best players since 'Nique was shipped to Clipperland. He got us out of a horrible mess of overpaid "talent". He signed Za on the cheap, and though he's a defensive liabilty, he's a solid offensive player who's output at least matches his contract. He stole Solomon in the second round.

To BossTweed's point, we're measuring him against only the perfect scenarios. As Levenson said, 11 other GM's passed on Smoove - should they be canned? The winning Memphis teams were of Billy's design - Jerry West's tenure has not been successful. As for the other drafts, yes, he's drafted the worst player of the three available. That's with hindsight, though. Chillz I beleive (I don't recall exactly) was held in similar regard to Deng/Iggy, and though he hasn't evolved on par with the other two, there's no denying he's a good player. Marvin was added at a time when it was argued that we had such a lack of talent, we needed that BPA, which he was widely considered (or at least the one with the most upside). With hindsight, the only truly inexcusable move was drafting Shelden (shudder). Also, spending $13 mil on back-up points-and neglecting time and time again to find us a starting-caliber one - is tough to stomach.

Personally, I don't like most of what Billy has done, and don't think he's the right guy to continue. However, the next guy to step in will have some assets to work with. And looking back, was it ridiculous that we drafted Chillz and Marvin, or are we just saying that knowing what we do now?

Levenson has said we're trying to build the right way, and it takes time (and yes, tests our patience). I want to look at this objectionably as possible - maybe we're being unreasonable? How does he stack up with other GM's who've had to tear everything down and build it back up? And if they got it right, how long did it take them?

[lunar]

the four other teams that you could say broke down around atlanta's time were the jazz, blazers, bobcats, and hornets.

so when you look at everything this is how it all went down.

the jazz had to deal with malone and stockton leaving and they tried to build a team around kirilenko. he signed okur and boozer to deals at the same time we were still trying to get rid of our vets. they also tried to get terry but the Atlanta GM (i can't remember which one) matched the offer. after taking a hell of alot of flack from his fans for boozer and okur's "bad contract" he ended up with the sixth pick which he traded into deron williams. he had to deal with alot of stuff, but he got players that were alittle more ahead of the curve than ours and now with jerry sloan (jesus christ to our barabas). they now have a great team

*moral of the story, every GM is going to get chewed out by his fans when rebuilding but as long as you have a good coach, you can withstand anything*

portland was still going through the pains of being the "jailblazers" they had a young darius miles that was starting to come along and a young zach randolph, along with rasheed wallace and damon stoudmire. then the GM who also had the worst relationship with the media in the history of the game, blew up his team. trading sheed to the hawks and letting stoudmire go. he also started going high school crazy picking up travis outlaw and martell webster in consecutive drafts. he also gave miles a "bad contract" and randolph a "semi-bad contract" after seeing their attendence fall through the floor and bad coach after bad coach, he was finally fired before the 2006 draft.

*moral of the story, you have to maintain control of your team. if you let the players, media, fans, and coaches run the show, everyone is bound to go down.

the bobcats came into existence around 2004 and they have taken the slow conservative approach to building a team through the draft. the got their big in okafor and found two gems in the expansion draft with gerald wallace and primoz brezec. next they got a capable point guard in raymond felton and a backup big in sean may. finally they picked up a scorer in adam morrison. coach and GM bickerstaff picked up high character guys and taught them how never to give up. this year they have been one of the feel-good stories for never being blown out and for being admirible even in defeat. they will soon be a force to be reackoned with.

*moral of the story, build with balance and you'll have a great team in time.

finally the hornets began the 03 season riding baron davis, jamal magloire, and jamall magloire. but with injuries to everyone, the GM decided to blowup the team. finishing the 2004 season with only JR smith and a young david west to hang their hopes to, they went into the draft hoping to get the player to help their cause. after finding a gem in chris paul, their GM decided to go into playoff mode. he traded JR Smith and PJ brown for a "bad contract" big in tyson chandler and signed a declining peja stojakovic to a "bad contract" however injuries and a lack of backup depth kept the new orleans/oklahoma city hornets fighting for a spot in the playoffs

*moral of the story, just because you find a gem, doesn't mean your team is ready to contend. you have to play out rebuilding.

overall, i would say he stacks up 4 of 5. i didn't include the chicago bulls because they started rebuilding years before and had more to work with. if i did then knight would be 5 of 6. he would have been tied with charlotte, but their better "coaching choice" tipped the scales in their favor.

1) Utah

2) New Orleans

3) Charlotte

4) Atlanta

5) Portland

[TroyMcClure]

I agree with what you've said ATL BALLER. One omission would be his hiring and continual support of his buddy Mike. That alone makes me want him gone. I can live with his other moves. I kind of like most of our team.

[AtLaS]

No, BK is by far worse than any GM in the league. The only draft pick he got right was the one that you aren't supposed to get right. All the picks that he SHOULD have gotten right (#6, #2, #5) he's blown. We already had 3 first round SFs AND Harrington, along with a high 2nd rounder in Donta when he selected Marvin. WHY? Marvin didn't even start and only averaged 11 ppg, and choked in big games, why make that pick? I can understand if he had a Durant/Melo freshman season, but he was nowhere NEAR that.

Not to mention how bad the Shelden promise was. The JT trade was HORRIBLE. The AJ trade was HORRIBLE. The Walker trade was HORRIBLE (result of the horrible JT trade). All of his FA signings have turned out bad. Zaza isn't a bad deal, but it's not like he's made a difference, it's not exactly a good deal. All the capspace he's created has been destroyed by stupid signings/trades. We have Lue, AJ, Speedy, Lo, Slava making like 15 million, and none are making a difference. BK got one pick right by getting Smith (an OBVIOUS pick), but has blown the ones that were expected to be impact players. In my eyes, the only true positive of BK is the JJ trade.

He's drafted over 10 players for the Hawks, and not ONE has been a PG or C. He has DIRECTLY passed the ROY 2 years in a row.

He continues to support Woodson also, which really irks me. Although Woodson is bad, BK is MILES worse. We'd be a playoff team regardless if not for BK's time after time again draft/FA/trade squanders.

There is no way possible I will give BK some slack.

[BusBoyIsBack]

To say BK is the worst GM in the league is absurd.

If BK is fired it will just be like Memphis where his team wasn't appreciated until they developed after he left.

We have a potential championship corp on this team with two all-star caliber players in Joe Johnson and Josh Smith.

What will determine how far these two go is what we put at the 1 and 5 positions and how much Marvin Williams blossoms.

We don't need Marvin to become a star. We don't need that 1 or 5 to be a star. We just need two of the three players to be above average.

I have faith in Marvin Williams being an above average player two years from now.

Im sorry he didn't dominate from day one like Lebron or Carmelo but that doesn't mean he is a bust. Everyone knew Marvin was going to take 3-4 years to develop and people are giving up on what really is his first year starting since he was in high school. And he hasn't even been healthy for this season.

I think when Marvin develops by that time Smoove will be a borderline superstar and Joe Johnson will be up there as well.

I have faith in us landing that Indy pick and using it wisely on a PG in this loaded class.

We are a 7th or 8th seed next year and a true playoff contender two years from now.

Some may say that's too far away but I think saying that's too far away for a team with it's oldest core player 25 is a little absurd.

[AtLaS]

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To say BK is the worst GM in the league is absurd.

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Actually, it's the opposite.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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No, BK is by far worse than any GM in the league. The only draft pick he got right was the one that you aren't supposed to get right. All the picks that he SHOULD have gotten right (#6, #2, #5) he's blown. We already had 3 first round SFs AND Harrington, along with a high 2nd rounder in Donta when he selected Marvin. WHY? Marvin didn't even start and only averaged 11 ppg, and choked in big games, why make that pick? I can understand if he had a Durant/Melo freshman season, but he was nowhere NEAR that.

Not to mention how bad the Shelden promise was. The JT trade was HORRIBLE. The AJ trade was HORRIBLE. The Walker trade was HORRIBLE (result of the horrible JT trade). All of his FA signings have turned out bad. Zaza isn't a bad deal, but it's not like he's made a difference, it's not exactly a good deal. All the capspace he's created has been destroyed by stupid signings/trades. We have Lue, AJ, Speedy, Lo, Slava making like 15 million, and none are making a difference. BK got one pick right by getting Smith (an OBVIOUS pick), but has blown the ones that were expected to be impact players. In my eyes, the only true positive of BK is the JJ trade.

He's drafted over 10 players for the Hawks, and not ONE has been a PG or C. He has DIRECTLY passed the ROY 2 years in a row.

He continues to support Woodson also, which really irks me. Although Woodson is bad, BK is MILES worse. We'd be a playoff team regardless if not for BK's time after time again draft/FA/trade squanders.

There is no way possible I will give BK some slack.

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No way BK is worse than Kevin McHale or Isaiah Thomas. Mr. "I need to holla at Kevin Durant's mama and violate the NBA code of conduct for GMs" ( Ainge ) isn't a worldbeater either. Mitchy K. in La La Land can be put in that group as well. And I named those right off the top of my head.

LOL . . there are a lot of bad GMs in this league, when you really look at the teams and the moves/draft picks that they've made.

I say BK ranks somewhere between 17th and 25th. Somewhere close to middle of the road, to just above the bottom 5. If you think hard enough, I'm sure we can come up with some more who are worst, or at least on BK's level.

[AtLaS]

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No way BK is worse than Kevin McHale or Isaiah Thomas. Mr. "I need to holla at Kevin Durant's mama and violate the NBA code of conduct for GMs" ( Ainge ) isn't a worldbeater either. Mitchy K. in La La Land can be put in that group as well. And I named those right off the top of my head.

LOL . . there are a lot of bad GMs in this league, when you really look at the teams and the moves/draft picks that they've made.

I say BK ranks somewhere between 17th and 25th. Somewhere close to middle of the road, to just above the bottom 5. If you think hard enough, I'm sure we can come up with some more who are worst, or at least on BK's level.

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FWIW, McHale was voted as the #1 GM in sports recently by Forbes. I know that isn't true, but he also hasn't had tons of cap space, a #6, #2, and #5 either. Same with Isiah, Ainge, etc.

I actually don't think Isiah is that bad, he's just so strapped with being over the cap in NY that it doesn't matter. Being the GM of NYK is completely different, they have mediocre teams every year and are like 40 million over the cap. Yeah he's eaten a bunch of bad contracts, but when you are already going to be capped out the next 5 years anyway, and the ownership doesn't mind, why NOT take on additional salary for a better player? Isiah has never really been given an opportunity to BUILD a team. But he has certainly accumulated talent in NYK.

Ainge has dispursed talent at pretty much EVERY position for Boston, despite not having ONE top pick. BK has had 3. Jefferson is Ainge's highest pick, and he certainly made the most of it. After this season (which is Ainge's worst), let's see if he blows his first high pick as BK has done 3 times.

McHale isn't that bad, KG's contract is. With KG's contract they couldn't sign anyone of note, but he still managed to get them to the WCF 2 years ago, despite not having a 1st round pick for 2 straight years.

BK has had many more opportunities than those other GMs combined.

[BusBoyIsBack]

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FWIW, McHale was voted as the #1 GM in sports recently by Forbes. I know that isn't true, but he also hasn't had tons of cap space, a #6, #2, and #5 either. Same with Isiah, Ainge, etc.

I actually don't think Isiah is that bad, he's just so strapped with being over the cap in NY that it doesn't matter. Being the GM of NYK is completely different, they have mediocre teams every year and are like 40 million over the cap. Yeah he's eaten a bunch of bad contracts, but when you are already going to be capped out the next 5 years anyway, and the ownership doesn't mind, why NOT take on additional salary for a better player? Isiah has never really been given an opportunity to BUILD a team. But he has certainly accumulated talent in NYK.

Ainge has dispursed talent at pretty much EVERY position for Boston, despite not having ONE top pick. BK has had 3. Jefferson is Ainge's highest pick, and he certainly made the most of it. After this season (which is Ainge's worst), let's see if he blows his first high pick as BK has done 3 times.

McHale isn't that bad, KG's contract is. With KG's contract they couldn't sign anyone of note, but he still managed to get them to the WCF 2 years ago, despite not having a 1st round pick for 2 straight years.

BK has had many more opportunities than those other GMs combined.

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BK has also put us in position to be a better team than Boston like by acquiring the two best players on this team in Joe Johnson and Josh Smith.

Neither one of those was a no brainer because A)He had to have the testicular fortitude to offer Joe JOhnson a max contract that nobody thought he was worth at the time and B) he was clever enough to trade for Sheed and trade Sheed for a draft pick that was used to acquire Smoove.

[Diesel]

A lot of them are just hiding behind good coaches or great players.

The key is can you find the Good GMs?

1. Utah's GM.

2. Orlando's GM

3. Phoenix's GM.

4. San Antonio's GM.

5. Miami's GM

[Packfill]

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Are we being too hard on him, too impatient, with unreasonable expectations?

He has brought in arguably the two best players since 'Nique was shipped to Clipperland. He got us out of a horrible mess of overpaid "talent". He signed Za on the cheap, and though he's a defensive liabilty, he's a solid offensive player who's output at least matches his contract. He stole Solomon in the second round.

To BossTweed's point, we're measuring him against only the perfect scenarios. As Levenson said, 11 other GM's passed on Smoove - should they be canned? The winning Memphis teams were of Billy's design - Jerry West's tenure has not been successful. As for the other drafts, yes, he's drafted the worst player of the three available. That's with hindsight, though. Chillz I beleive (I don't recall exactly) was held in similar regard to Deng/Iggy, and though he hasn't evolved on par with the other two, there's no denying he's a good player. Marvin was added at a time when it was argued that we had such a lack of talent, we needed that BPA, which he was widely considered (or at least the one with the most upside). With hindsight, the only truly inexcusable move was drafting Shelden (shudder). Also, spending $13 mil on back-up points-and neglecting time and time again to find us a starting-caliber one - is tough to stomach.

Personally, I don't like most of what Billy has done, and don't think he's the right guy to continue. However, the next guy to step in will have some assets to work with. And looking back, was it ridiculous that we drafted Chillz and Marvin, or are we just saying that knowing what we do now?

Levenson has said we're trying to build the right way, and it takes time (and yes, tests our patience). I want to look at this objectionably as possible - maybe we're being unreasonable? How does he stack up with other GM's who've had to tear everything down and build it back up? And if they got it right, how long did it take them?

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How were the winning teams in Memphis BK's design? That team never gets to the playoffs in the first place unless West comes in and hires a decent coach, trades for Mike Miller, obtains James Posey (who had a career year that year to carry that team into the playoffs).

BK's entire legacy in Memphis is Gasol and Battier, an impressive draft hall to be sure, but that is it.

[Vol4ever]

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Are we being too hard on him, too impatient, with unreasonable expectations?

He has brought in arguably the two best players since 'Nique was shipped to Clipperland. He got us out of a horrible mess of overpaid "talent". He signed Za on the cheap, and though he's a defensive liabilty, he's a solid offensive player who's output at least matches his contract. He stole Solomon in the second round.

To BossTweed's point, we're measuring him against only the perfect scenarios. As Levenson said, 11 other GM's passed on Smoove - should they be canned? The winning Memphis teams were of Billy's design - Jerry West's tenure has not been successful. As for the other drafts, yes, he's drafted the worst player of the three available. That's with hindsight, though. Chillz I beleive (I don't recall exactly) was held in similar regard to Deng/Iggy, and though he hasn't evolved on par with the other two, there's no denying he's a good player. Marvin was added at a time when it was argued that we had such a lack of talent, we needed that BPA, which he was widely considered (or at least the one with the most upside). With hindsight, the only truly inexcusable move was drafting Shelden (shudder). Also, spending $13 mil on back-up points-and neglecting time and time again to find us a starting-caliber one - is tough to stomach.

Personally, I don't like most of what Billy has done, and don't think he's the right guy to continue. However, the next guy to step in will have some assets to work with. And looking back, was it ridiculous that we drafted Chillz and Marvin, or are we just saying that knowing what we do now?

Levenson has said we're trying to build the right way, and it takes time (and yes, tests our patience). I want to look at this objectionably as possible - maybe we're being unreasonable? How does he stack up with other GM's who've had to tear everything down and build it back up? And if they got it right, how long did it take them?

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Well I have followed the Hawks pretty close since the 1980s. Your above statement could be looked at from a different point of view. Actually in the past the hawks won games especially back in the 1990s and any team that is successful in the league is strapped with big contracts. So essentially what Knight did was put on a BIG FIRE SALE so the new ownership would not have to pay out. I remember back when the car guy from Texas wanted to buy the team, a lot of people on HawkSquawk did not want him to get the team because he would not spend the money. Now, this ownership group has operated on the CHEAP and this team is nothing more than a tax write-off. I do not care for BK but I think his hands are tied IMO.

Babcock definitely had his downfalls but at least he tried to make moves to improve the team to win and I don't see that at all with this bunch.

There is simply NOT a commitment to winning with the Hawks franchise today!

[macdaddy]

Everyone continues to overlook the fact that BK is working with no money in NBA terms. Comparing to Utah or NY is not fair. Could we have signed Okur, Boozer, Curry to the deals they got? No way. Don't believe the Spirit when they say there are no financial constraints. Every trade we've made or tried to make the other teams always say the Hawks refuse to take back ANY contracts. Our team is riding solely on JJ and our own draft picks.

[TheDude]

good point...

people complaining also about our draft picks when those draft picks are why we are on the cusp of being perennial playoff contenders..PERENNIAL..

offensively zaza is one of the best in the league at the center position but we definitely need an upgrade defensively....that's why i dont think we're in as bad a shape as many think..

i think we get a young point to groom behind AJ, Lue, and ug, maybe Speedy in the draft and we're good on that front...we can get a defensive center in free agency to replace LWright...

EVEN IF WE DO NOT DO A DAM THING ABOUT EITHER POSITION WE STILL ARE PERENNIAL PLAYOFF CONTENDERS....

heck we get somebody like billups or get lucky in the draft and we're ahead of the game..the only thing holding further back in my opinion woud be Woody.

[DJlaysitup]

All I can add is:

13 - 26 - 30 (probably).

- The Big Tuna

[Diesel]

I can't say we were always on the cheap. I think we were selectively on the cheap.

Remember, we wined and Dined KMart and supposedly offered him 66 million.

We also supposedly were willing to make Damp a max deal the year after (although I believe this was not true, just Damp's agent using us)..

However, the KMart deal tells me that we are on the cheap, but it's selective. Now is that bad? I don't think so. I would actually say that's what a good GM does. Keep the payroll low until the 1 talent you want comes along. Unfortunately, it's sad that Kmart was that guy!

[AHF]

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I actually don't think Isiah is that bad, he's just so strapped with being over the cap in NY that it doesn't matter. Being the GM of NYK is completely different, they have mediocre teams every year and are like 40 million over the cap. Yeah he's eaten a bunch of bad contracts, but when you are already going to be capped out the next 5 years anyway, and the ownership doesn't mind, why NOT take on additional salary for a better player? Isiah has never really been given an opportunity to BUILD a team. But he has certainly accumulated talent in NYK.

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Are you serious? Isiah is a terrible, terrible GM. He isn't the worst because he has a decent eye for talent in the draft but he is absolutely aweful at every other aspect of being a GM.

Why not take on Jerome James, Jalen Rose, etc.? Do you really need to ask?

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Ainge has dispursed talent at pretty much EVERY position for Boston, despite not having ONE top pick. BK has had 3. Jefferson is Ainge's highest pick, and he certainly made the most of it. After this season (which is Ainge's worst), let's see if he blows his first high pick as BK has done 3 times.

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Before you go lamenting Ainge's lack of opportunity, remember he traded the #7 pick that translated into Brandon Roy (actually Foye was selected and traded for Roy) for Sebastian Telfair. Ouch.

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McHale isn't that bad, KG's contract is. With KG's contract they couldn't sign anyone of note, but he still managed to get them to the WCF 2 years ago, despite not having a 1st round pick for 2 straight years.

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McHale is very likely the worst GM in the NBA. His total inability to anything right other than select Garnett is mindboggling. With one of the top 4 players in the NBA he has absolutely wasted Garnett's career to date from the Joe Smith debacle, to letting Billups go, to blowing draft picks repeatedly (not lottery picks for the most part but even those have been BK-esque like Sczerbiak over Hamilton, Miller and Marion; McCants over Granger, Green, Jack, Robinson, Head; Foye over Roy; etc.), to the free agent signings he has blown. Just an aweful GM, IMO.

Defending McHale damages the credibility of your argument in my mind. You would do better by trying to lump him and BK into the same category if you want to go after BK.

[macdaddy]

Right. I think that is a good thing too, but the deals you are talking about are pre-Belkingate. Since then I think we've had our own salary cap which is why nothing could come back for Harrington and why we can't really pull off any kind of major trade. It will be interesting to see if payroll increases any this summer. I'm not expecting it to other than extending Smoove I hope.

[AtLaS]

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Are you serious? Isiah is a terrible, terrible GM. He isn't the worst because he has a decent eye for talent in the draft but he is absolutely aweful at every other aspect of being a GM.

Why not take on Jerome James, Jalen Rose, etc.? Do you really need to ask?

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Because they had the money, they were already strapped down for the next 5 years, and the owners agreed to it. Why NOT take the chance?? James had just come off a very productive playoff series. Jalen had always been an effective player, he just had an attrocious contract. But again, it didn't matter because they were $50 million over the cap anyway. Isiah has never been given an opportunity like BK, period.

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Before you go lamenting Ainge's lack of opportunity, remember he traded the #7 pick that translated into Brandon Roy (actually Foye was selected and traded for Roy) for Sebastian Telfair. Ouch.

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That's one legit bad move, BK has made many more. BK traded JT for nothing. Drafted Marvin over 2 franchise PGs, promised Shelden, signed horrible FA's. He has directly passed 2 straight ROY's. Wasted a high 2nd and MORE cap for a rental of a 33 year old AJ who does NOTHING for our future. Ainge at least has built a core of a team, and has talent at pretty much every position, and the highest pick he's had, he made the most of it. When BK sees an SF he bends at the knees begs for mercy. He's drafted over 10 players for the Hawks, not ONE has been a PG or Center! Not one!

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Defending McHale damages the credibility of your argument in my mind. You would do better by trying to lump him and BK into the same category if you want to go after BK.

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I'm not saying McHale is a good GM, just saying that he isn't as bad as BK. He may be AS bad, but not worse. Even if they had those 2 1sts that they missed out on because of Joe Smith, they wouldn't have been high picks.

And that's why I said FWIW (For what it's worth) when I posted that he was voted the #1 GM in sports recently, but I do agree it was way off.

[Diesel]

Before you say too many bad things about Isiah...

You have to take each move as just that a move. He has made some very good moves and some bad ones. I think he's middle of the road. For instance, he found David Lee in the draft.