Does Oden Have Any Heart At All...?

[AHF]

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The only real question is do you think what Oden does Sparadically will translate in the pros?

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Yes, I do. I think Oden's game will translate very nicely in the pros.

[Diesel]

I'm talking about Offense.

I don't think he will get that kind of position in the NBA. I don't think he will post up a whole lot of 6'8 players in the NBA. There will be a Bogut effect. Remember everybody was riding Bogut hard a few years ago. It's easy to look good in the college ranks, but translation is always the question. If he doesn't work on his offense, he will be another project Center turned Okafor.

[AHF]

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I'm talking about Offense.

I don't think he will get that kind of position in the NBA. I don't think he will post up a whole lot of 6'8 players in the NBA. There will be a Bogut effect. Remember everybody was riding Bogut hard a few years ago. It's easy to look good in the college ranks, but translation is always the question. If he doesn't work on his offense, he will be another project Center turned Okafor.

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I think Oden's offense will take more time to translate but will be effective from day 1 (someone who can score efficiently and fairly consistently -- not someone to run the offense like Kobe, Duncan, etc.) and will translate very well over the long run.

[Diesel]

And that's what I'm talking about also. The translation of the offense taking time as compared to the other guys. Moreover, if he takes it for granted, he will never be a dominant offensive player and thus will never be a great player.

Here's what I see:

1. His offense is not going to be ready to go (meaning him being a goto guy) in yr 1 maybe not 2 or 3 either.

2. His defense will be good, but not great from the get go. He's big, but he's not NBA big yet.

3. His speed is good, but in the absence of real offensive moves, that doesn't mean a lot.

I think he will come in and possibly struggle for a season. Why struggle? Because there's a lot of pressure on him to be the man. PLUS, he's not going to be able to lead a team right away.

I don't think any of that's bad if he goes to a team that already has some semblence of where they are going. I think a very good fit for him would be Boston.

The Celtics have pierce, all those Young Gaurds and Jefferson. Oden and Jefferson would be a killer young duo.

If you recall, Jefferson looked really good coming out of HS, he averaged like 60 ppg with almost 20 rpg too. However, that kind of stuff didn't translate and won't ever translate because playing against Kids who know less than you is no comparison to pros who know more than you do.

I expect the same learning curve for Oden.

[thesheedera]

I think there will be a learning curve, but while he's learning, he'll score much more points just being around the rim with better size than Jefferson and Okafor had a rookies, his passing will be more advanced out of the post than those guys, and his defense will be better than both as well.

He'll hold his own right from the get-go. He'll dominate within a couple of years.

[AHF]

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I think there will be a learning curve, but while he's learning, he'll score much more points just being around the rim with better size than Jefferson and Okafor had a rookies, his passing will be more advanced out of the post than those guys, and his defense will be better than both as well.

He'll hold his own right from the get-go. He'll dominate within a couple of years.

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Yep.

[Diesel]

Being big doesn't guarantee you getting points. If it did, guys like Olowakandi, Okafor, and Pryzibilla would be standouts. Getting points really requires having some offensive ability. I don't think Oden has offensive ability yet. I think he has to really go and work on it. Defensively, he has the timing of a shot blocker and strength and size. ON defense that means a whole lot. However, offensively he will struggle unless he puts in work.

Let's take a relevant example here:

LaMarcus ALdridge was one of the better scoring Big men in the college game. He actually had offensive moves and could be a goto guy. Still, it's taken him most of the season to develop his offense. Oden is coming in as a dominant player with very little in the way of offensive moves. He's big, but hell so was Stanley Roberts. If he doesn't develop an offense, forget leading his team to a championship, he will be a cog.

[thesheedera]

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Being big doesn't guarantee you getting points.

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I agree, and from what I've seen of Oden he already has more offensive ability than any of those guys. I think Oden CLEARLY has better post moves than Aldridge did, that was the biggest knock on Lamarcus, that he didn't have an inside game. He just cleaned up trash.

With any projection of a player there's an assumption of whether or not they'll put in the work. I assume he will, especially the way he handled his injury this season. the guy developed his left shooting hand better than most guards probably could have.

Your whole argument is based on the assumption that Oden will NOT work on his game. I think that's highly unlikely.

Oden's not a polished offensive center compared to NBA all star centers. He's without a doubt a polished center compared to other college centers out there, save for Spencer Hawes. A few may be more polished, but not too many, and I'm willing to be they're older than freshman.

He has post moves, he just doesn't finish them as well as he needs to. That requires more time, experience, and yes of course, work. But he's shown us that he has the ability to make the moves that are necessary.

In my mind he's already ahead of the curve compared to centers his age in the one department that he needs the most improvement on.

The other department of concern is how bad he "wants it" and last night it looke dpretty clear to me that he in fact does.

[AHF]

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Being big doesn't guarantee you getting points. If it did, guys like Olowakandi, Okafor, and Pryzibilla would be standouts. Getting points really requires having some offensive ability. I don't think Oden has offensive ability yet. I think he has to really go and work on it. Defensively, he has the timing of a shot blocker and strength and size. ON defense that means a whole lot. However, offensively he will struggle unless he puts in work.

Let's take a relevant example here:

LaMarcus ALdridge was one of the better scoring Big men in the college game. He actually had offensive moves and could be a goto guy. Still, it's taken him most of the season to develop his offense. Oden is coming in as a dominant player with very little in the way of offensive moves. He's big, but hell so was Stanley Roberts. If he doesn't develop an offense, forget leading his team to a championship, he will be a cog.

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I will be shocked if Oden doesn't average double digit points his rookie season.

Aldridge is not a good comparison (1) because of the difference in size and athleticism and (2) he is only averaging 22 mpg. Roberts is not in the same league as a prospect as Oden. He was the 23rd overall pick in the draft, as you probably remember.

I expect Oden to average around 12 ppg his rookie season and to be a consistent contributor offensively.

[TexasPete]

What about Oden being only 18 do you not understand? Patrick Ewing had about 1/2 of Odens offensive game when Patrick was a freshman. Oden is now still at 80-90% with his injury. He played most of the year with one hand. Akeem the dream was not much either as a freshman but he improved light years as his career at the college Houston wore on.

Why do you make silly comparisons like Okafor as a senior to Oden the freshman? When Oden is 22 he will be so far ahead of Okafor it is just silly to compare them. Come on.

[exodus]

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What about Oden being only 18 do you not understand? Patrick Ewing had about 1/2 of Odens offensive game when Patrick was a freshman. Oden is now still at 80-90% with his injury. He played most of the year with one hand.

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Whenever facts get in the way of Diesel's argument he simply ignores them.

[BusBoyIsBack]

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I've seen Amare and Dwight and now Oden in person, and I still don't think that, athletically speaking, Oden is quite on the same level as those guys in terms of pure leaping ability, explosiveness, and quickness. Don't get me wrong, Oden is close to those guys athletically, but I'd still say he's a teir below them.

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I thought this too until I saw him make that poster dunk attempt vs Georgetown.

Only a big man with world class athleticism could have made that move.

He also shows other flashes as well.

[Guest Walter]

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The only real question is do you think what Oden does Sparadically will translate in the pros?...it won't translate.

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...in the pros, much less his offense. I'd say you are marginalized as to whether anyone's game translates to the NBA.

W

[DrReality]

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Imagine Greg Oden and Josh Smith together...basically no one would get a layup against us again.

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Image them together with Woody as coach. That would make me wnat to gag. Like putting bald tires on an Escalade.

[Diesel]

Age has nothing to do with the argument... It's all about translation. How does his game now translate. I notice that age only comes up with deficient players. Nobody ever mentioned Lebron's age... in respect to translation? I wonder why?

[Diesel]

First off, My argument was that Oden HAS TO WORK ON HIS GAME... Get that straight. I'm not argueing that Oden is a bust. I'm argueing that his sporadic office will not translate well right now and IT WILL REQUIRE WORK ON HIS GAME FOR HIM TO BE ABLE TO LEAD A TEAM TO THE PLAYOFFS OR THE CHAMPIONSHIP.

[thesheedera]

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First off, My argument was that Oden HAS TO WORK ON HIS GAME... Get that straight. I'm not argueing that Oden is a bust. I'm argueing that his sporadic office will not translate well right now and IT WILL REQUIRE WORK ON HIS GAME FOR HIM TO BE ABLE TO LEAD A TEAM TO THE PLAYOFFS OR THE CHAMPIONSHIP.

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Isn't that true for every single player that ever played and will play the game?

Name one player who came into the NBA and didn't need to improve a single thing about the way they played the game in order for his team to be successful.

Magic is the only one I can think of who had instant success and seemed to be at his very best while his team enjoyed the highest success from the very beginning. And he happend to be playing alongside a few Hall of Famers and for a Hall of Fame coach.

[Sothron]

No player that ever went from college to the pros had the luxury of NOT working on their game Diesel. What you are trying to insinuate (I assume) is that Oden is lazy and won't work hard.

Which I think is insane. The kid was dominant against a team with at least 3 first rounders in the NBA draft and two other players who can be in the NBA. And Oden killed them left, right and sideways.

I said in another thread it will take Oden probably at least 2-3 years to develop in the NBA and I stand by that. That being said...he's probably going to be a dominant big man. On both sides of the ball. And for someone who made a thread to say Shellhead is as good as Karl Malone, well, your attacks on Oden just qualify as "strange."

[AtLaS]

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Right now, if all parties were to come out, Noah and Hibbert would make a bigger impact than Oden right away because these guys know how to score and play offense.

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Noah knows how to play offense? You don't watch too much college basketball do you?

I really hope you were kidding. Noah averages 12 and 8, Hibbert averages 12 and 6. You think their numbers will INCREASE in the NBA their rookie seasons?

Oden is only 18 and a FRESHMAN, and he already averages 16 and 10, and he DOMINATED Noah. I see no legit argument that says either one will have a better rookie year than Oden. The only way Noah will is if he goes to PHX, because he can run. But to say Noah knows how to play offense is absurd. Hibbert is 7'2" and only averages 6 rebounds!!

[Guest Walter]

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Age has nothing to do with the argument... It's all about translation. How does his game now translate. I notice that age only comes up with deficient players. Nobody ever mentioned Lebron's age... in respect to translation? I wonder why?

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You already will owe $20 bucks thanks to Oden. Put up what you think Oden will average next year to indicate just how poorly you think his game will translate. Set the numbers too high and you undermine your argument. Too low? I'll take the bet and you'll end up owing $20 more. Put your money where your mouth is.

I'm not kidding. I'll even make it somehow a more fair deal. I'll let AHF as our legal 3rd party, judge, should he accept this responsibility, if the numbers you suggest Oden will average are representative of a franchise center or even one of the games greats at this point in their career (undermining your argument and making the bet moot) or whether the numbers you suggest reflect an initial poor translation for a college freshman center prospect to the NBA (meaning I must take the bet). I don't see a middle but if he deems so, anything inbetween and I'll be happy to decide.

I'd ask the same regarding Shelden but I know you aren't that stupid.

From here on out, if Diesel isn't willing to back it up, he should shut up. Show me the money and make HS rich, Diesel.

W