If we get the #1 pick in the draft........

[Nicholasp27]

i'd do it in a heartbeat if it was oden for howard

i wouldn't do oden/marvin for howard...no way

i MIGHT consider oden/marvin for howard/nelson, depending on how nelson's potential is shaping up these days

pg/speedy/lue

jj/chill/slim

marvin/chill/smoove

smoove/shelden/howard

howard/zaza/solo

would be nice...

[AtLaS]

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I can understand why so many people are high on Oden, he's really a great talent........but, he lacks when it comes to scoring.

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Howard is the one who lacks scoring ability and he has been in the league 3 years.

Oden played most of the season with one hand. he dominated Floridas front line in the Finals dropping 25 on them. He already has more post moves than Howard.

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lol, Dwight would have dropped 40 on Florida's line. Oden is no more advanced offensively than Howard.

The reason Howard has so many turnovers is because they give him the ball on EVERY possession. Jameer Nelson has regressed into a horrible shoot first PG, and there is noone to help Dwight out. He gets doubled, and Orlando can't do anything to make the other team pay for it. Oden also averages 2 turnovers a game in college with a great all around team, so he isn't exactly non-turnover prone.

I'd rather have Dwight, but I doubt our ownership will have 3 max contracts (or near max with Smith) so I doubt we do it. On the other hand, I doubt Orlando does it either.

[exodus]

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The reason Howard has so many turnovers is because they give him the ball on EVERY possession.

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If he gets the ball on every possession then why does he only average 17 pts and 2 assists?

Howard gets 6 ppg on dunks yet only averages 17.5 ppg. Even Shaq only gets 4 ppg on dunks. Amare and Marion get 4.6 and 4.2. If howard gets so many points on dunks why can't he average 20ppg? because his bball skills are lame.

http://www.82games.com/0607/06ORL15A.HTM

Howard only scores 1 ppg on jumpers shooting a pathetic 27%. By contrast Dalembert, not known for his basketball skills, scores 3.3 ppg on jumpers shooting 44%.

Duncan only scores 1 ppg on dunks yet averages 20 ppg. How? because he actually has basketball skills. Howard doesn't.

Howard leads the league in lost ball turnovers by a mile.

http://www.82games.com/random29.htm

And lets not forget that he shoots 60% from the foul line. His team also gives up 2.7 ppg more when he is playing.

Howard has great size and athleticism which allow him to be a great rebounder but his overall basketball skills are negligible.

[AtLaS]

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Howard is OVERRATED

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Please don't tell me that a 21 year old averaging 17.5 and 12.3 with 2 blocks on 60% SHOOTING, with NO point guard and a horrible team around him is overrated. Especially one who is quite possibly the greatest physical speciman in the NBA, with as much potential on top of how good he already is.

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If he gets the ball on every possession then why does he only average 17 pts and 2 assists?

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I didn't say he was a good passer. I just said they throw the ball to him almost every possession, kind of like how Shaq used to be. He kicks it out a lot too, but he's still shooting 60%.

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Howard gets 6 ppg on dunks yet only averages 17.5 ppg. Even Shaq only gets 4 ppg on dunks. Amare and Marion get 4.6 and 4.2. If howard gets so many points on dunks why can't he average 20ppg? because his bball skills are lame.

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That stat is completely meaningless. It's easier for Howard to dunk than all of those players. Dunks from Howard are layups for others. Amare is a better shooter so that explains Amare's situation. Marion is an SF/PF who doesn't play inside so that's really not a good comparison. Shaq can't dunk NEARLY as easily as he once could.

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Howard only scores 1 ppg on jumpers shooting a pathetic 27%. By contrast Dalembert, not known for his basketball skills, scores 3.3 ppg on jumpers shooting 44%.

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Are you trying to say Oden is a better shooter? If you are expecting Oden to come in and hit jumpshots, then you are sadly mistaken.

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Duncan only scores 1 ppg on dunks yet averages 20 ppg. How? because he actually has basketball skills. Howard doesn't.

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How are you making this comparison. Neither Howard NOR Oden have the offensive skills of Duncan, this point is completely moot.

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His team also gives up 2.7 ppg more when he is playing.

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We give up 1.5 more when Smoove is on the court, and 1.2 more with JJ on the court. Are you saying they are better without Dwight? Stats can be used to make any kind of point. Stats can only slightly support an argument, they don't MAKE an argument as you are attempting to do.

[thescout5]

I still would take Oden over Howard.You have to remember Oden's forte is defense and he changes shots like no other big man NBA or College. Add to that the guy played most of the year with his opposite hand on offense yet still ranks favorably with most all of the centers there first yr of college then no way would I trade him for Dwight.

Oden is 18 yrs old so his game will continue to develop and has more size than Dwight giving him a better shot blocking capability. Dwight is a heck of a player but if I had to choose its Oden.

[Diesel]

I'd do it.

However, there is this one down point.

Howard is about to cash in... That being the case, we'd have to know that it's Howard, JSmoove, JJ for the future forever. Because we'd have to carry those three contracts!

However, I would do it because Howard is a rebounding Monster!!! Him and Smoove and Shelden and Solomon make up the strongest front line in the game for years.

[AtLaS]

I'd be happy with either, frankly it doesn't matter with me. But since I doubt the Spirit is going to pay 3 max or near max contracts, I see no way of it actually happening. I still see Howard as a better offensive player than Oden(although Howard does have flaws), and a better rebounder.

[Diesel]

Doesn't understand the impact that rebounds can have on a game.

When Horace Grant went to Orlando, Orlando beat a Bulls team with Jordan...

Jordan and company regrouped and got Dennis Rodman. That made a 60+ win team into a 72+ win team. The Bulls became invincible because now they had a guy who could get them rebounds and second chance opportunities.

A second chance opportunity for a team like ours would be a great thing. We would wear teams down Physically and Mentally because it's hard to "get up" for another defensive stand after you've made one and the team got the ball back.

I'm not speaking for Oden, But Howard is getting 12+ per game. DANG!!! Plus he does have offensive moves. The guy has a drop step... and he can play back to the basket. And Just like Smoove, he's still learning!!

We would be the most dangerous team in the game and an automatic championship threat.

[exodus]

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Please don't tell me that a 21 year old averaging 17.5 and 12.3 with 2 blocks on 60% SHOOTING, with NO point guard and a horrible team around him is overrated.

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He is absolutely overrated. People are judging him based on what he COULD BE instead of what he is. You mention his age, implying that you expect him to improve. However looking at his time in the league he hasn't been improving. He has gotten much stronger and bigger but his skills have gotten no better.

The reason he shoots 60% is because half of his made field goals are dunks. It isn't because he has any shooting skills at all.

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Shaq can't dunk NEARLY as easily as he once could.

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But he can shoot jumpers much better than Howard, shooting 35%. It is sad when you don't have as much shooting range as Shaq.

All Howard is good at on offense is dunking. He has no midrange J AT ALL and his post moves are weak. Plus he turns it over more than anyone in the league when he tries to score in the post.

He is also second in the league in traveling violations in addition to leading the league in lost ball turnovers.

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Are you trying to say Oden is a better shooter?

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What i am saying is that Howard has no skills at all other than dunking. it isn't possible for oden to have less scoring skill than Howard because Howard doesn't have any.

Plus Oden played most of the season one handed. We don't know all of what he can do offensively.

I didn't know Patrick Ewing could shoot a jumper until he came to the NBA.

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How are you making this comparison.

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Because people are claiming that Howard is a great player, which he isn't. This becomes obvious when you compare Howard with someone who IS a great player.

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Especially one who is quite possibly the greatest physical speciman in the NBA, with as much potential on top of how good he already is.

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All he has going for him is size and athleticism. And i am not sold on the potential improvement of someone who has played a ton of minutes for 3 years and hasn't shown even marginal improvement in his basketball skills.

Howard is 45th in the league in scoring, one of the worst turnover machines in the league. He can't shoot foul shots. He doesn't get assists. All he is good at is rebounding and dunking. That doesn't make him a great player.

[AtLaS]

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He is absolutely overrated. People are judging him based on what he COULD BE instead of what he is.

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OK this is what he IS. 17 and 12.3 with 2 blocks on 60% shooting. He's already the 2nd best center in the NBA at age 21, JUST TURNED 21 mind you.

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The reason he shoots 60% is because half of his made field goals are dunks. It isn't because he has any shooting skills at all.

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What does this matter? If someone is averaging 17+ and 12+ on 60% shooting, how is that bad? It isn't like he's playing Tyrus Thomas's role on the Bulls and is just getting assisted wide open dunks. He has NO HELP. Jameer has been horrible this year.

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But he can shoot jumpers much better than Howard, shooting 35%. It is sad when you don't have as much shooting range as Shaq.

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LMAO at Shaq shooting jumpers. You are reaching on this one. Please show me a video of Shaq hitting a jumper. Shooting 60% is what matters.

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Plus he turns it over more than anyone in the league when he tries to score in the post.

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That's because he tries to score in the paint more than anyone. Orlando HAS to get him to do that, they have no other choice, it's no coincidence that he's leading the league in turnovers. Put Oden on the Magic and he'd lead the league also.

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What i am saying is that Howard has no skills at all other than dunking. it isn't possible for oden to have less scoring skill than Howard because Howard doesn't have any.

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Doesn't have any? You're just making stuff up. Please stop. You know for a fact Howard has post moves, but it's hard to perform them when you are doubled and your teammates can't make the other team pay for it.

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How are you making this comparison.

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Because people are claiming that Howard is a great player, which he isn't. This becomes obvious when you compare Howard with someone who IS a great player.

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What does this have to do with ODEN VS HOWARD?? Why is Duncan being brought into this conversation? Are you REALLY expecting Oden to be Duncan offensively?? If you think he has the potential too, fine, but to say that Howard doesn't also is hypocritical.

Howard can't shoot like Duncan, so what! Oden can't either!

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All he has going for him is size and athleticism. And i am not sold on the potential improvement of someone who has played a ton of minutes for 3 years and hasn't shown even marginal improvement in his basketball skills.

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Please tell me you're kidding. Dwight has actually developed a GREAT spin move around the basket.

So you don't think he's going to improve over what he's putting up now, even though he's only 21 and has improved his numbers in every category, EVERY YEAR?? That's some serious n00bness.

Lmao you defend the washed up Webber as still being a great player, yet you claim the 21 year old Dwight hasn't improved and you see no reason he will improve in the future.

[exodus]

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That's because he tries to score in the paint more than anyone.

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So he tries to score in the paint more than anyone yet is 45th in the league in scoring. OK

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What does this matter? If someone is averaging 17+ and 12+ on 60% shooting, how is that bad?

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I guess you still don't get it so i will explain it again.

Howard scores totally because of his size and athleticism. As far as skills go, if he had any he would average over 20 easily.

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He has NO HELP

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Neither does Garnett, but that doesn't stop him from scoring over 20 every year.

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You know for a fact Howard has post moves, but it's hard to perform them when you are doubled and your teammates can't make the other team pay for it.

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He isn't doubled at all unless he gets close to the basket. If he is 10 feet away from the rim everyone can just leave him alone and dare him to shoot.

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What does this have to do with ODEN VS HOWARD?? Why is Duncan being brought into this conversation? Are you REALLY expecting Oden to be Duncan offensively?? If you think he has the potential too, fine, but to say that Howard doesn't also is hypocritical.

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Because people are trying to say Oden doesn't have the scoring skills of Howard, which is ridiculous. Howard scores because of his size and athleticism. That is all.

Oden played most of the year with one hand, a fact that you and Diesel seem incapable of grasping.

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Dwight has actually developed a GREAT spin move around the basket.

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That is probably where he picks up all his traveling calls, second most in the league.

Oden showed more post moves in the title game than i have ever seen from Howard.

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even though he's only 21 and has improved his numbers in every category, EVERY YEAR??

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Rookie year he scored 1 ppg on jumpers, shooting 27.8%

This year he is scoring 1 ppg on jumpers, shooting 27.4%.

Rookie year he shot 67% from the line. This year he is shooting 60%.

Last year he averaged 2.65 turnovers. This year it is 3.9.

Not impressed. Just because this is a weak era for centers people are acting like Howard is DRob. He isn't anywhere close.

The idea that Howard has developed offensive skills that Oden doesn't is laughable. Howards lone offensive talent is to try to overpower or outquick someone for a dunk. If he can't get inside of 5 feet he can't score at all.

And you wanted to know about Shaq.

http://www.82games.com/0607/06MIA16A.HTM

[exodus]

LOL i just checked another board and found this.

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Howard stunned by Garnett's remarks

BY JOHN DENTON

ORLANDO - Part heartbroken, part frustrated and part realistic, Dwight Howard didn't know how to interpret Kevin Garnett's rather harsh critique of the Orlando Magic center's progress in the NBA.

Howard grew up idolizing Garnett, doing everything from studying his game tapes to hanging a poster of the Minnesota Timberwolves star on the wall of his Atlanta home.

While the two talked cordially recently at the NBA All-Star Game, they have had their scrapes on the court. Garnett was whistled for a technical foul two years ago for shoving Howard when they wrestled for a rebound. And veteran referee Jess Kersey admonished them for wrestling and trash talking late in Sunday's game.

So maybe it was no surprise that Garnett was somewhat critical of the 21-year-old Howard, questioning his inability to add a mid-range jump shot and his propensity for turning the ball over.

Said Garnett of Howard: "Now you're going to see what kind of player Dwight wants to be and if he evolves his game into other aspects. We'll see if he starts to attack defenses differently and if he does his homework. . . . There are ways that you can make everyone else around you better and at the same time make yourself better. But he has to do his homework to evolve his game

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click

I guess Garnett doesn't know what he is talking about either.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Once again the Magic would never make that move so it's ridiculous to even think about.

Howard is a 21 year old guy on the verge of superstardom if not already there.

You really think the Magic would be that stupid and trade that away for an unproven guy who may or may not be better?

That wouldn't be a good move for fan support nor basketball wise.

Also how the hell do you guys think we will get that lucky and land that pick?

And how the hell could you complain about Greg Oden if we landed it?

[AtLaS]

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So he tries to score in the paint more than anyone yet is 45th in the league in scoring. OK

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Yes, because they always give him the ball inside, and he doesn't have a shot so that's the only way right now. They also don't have a PG so he doesn't get many easy baskets. Despite that he still shoots 60%.

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Howard scores totally because of his size and athleticism.

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What does this matter? Isn't that an advantage for Howard?

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Neither does Garnett, but that doesn't stop him from scoring over 20 every year.

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Garnett's 3rd season: 49% FIELD GOALS, 18.5 ppg, 9.6 rebounds, 4.6 apg, 1.8 blocks.

Dwight this season: 60% FIELD GOALS, 17.5 ppg, 12.3 rebounds, 2 apg, 2 blocks.

KG only scored ONE MORE PPG than Dwight in his 3rd season, despite shooting 49%!! They are VERY similar at this time in their respective careers, with Garnett being the better passer and SLIGHTLY better scorer, and Dwight being the better rebounder.

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He isn't doubled at all unless he gets close to the basket.

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Thanks for proving my point. You don't see Shaq being doubled at the 3pt line do you? Shaq isn't doubled unless he has good low post position either.

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What does this have to do with ODEN VS HOWARD?? Why is Duncan being brought into this conversation? Are you REALLY expecting Oden to be Duncan offensively?? If you think he has the potential too, fine, but to say that Howard doesn't also is hypocritical.

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Because people are trying to say Oden doesn't have the scoring skills of Howard, which is ridiculous. Howard scores because of his size and athleticism. That is all.

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At this point, Oden DOESN'T have the low post moves of Howard. I'm not saying he never will, but he is certainly not a dominant offensive post player at this point. And I'm not saying Howard is either, Howard definitely needs to improve, but to say he's not going to improve from where he is now is rediculous.

On the same token, do you think Oden will average better than 17.5 and 12.3 on 60% shooting by his 2nd season??

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Oden played most of the year with one hand, a fact that you and Diesel seem incapable of grasping.

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OK. He still only averaged 16 ppg in the tourney while being healthy, he pretty much scored EXCLUSIVELY on size and athleticism (as you say Dwight does). Noah is a freakin toothpick, don't use him as an example. Dwight would drop 40 on him.

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Oden showed more post moves in the title game than i have ever seen from Howard.

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If you consider all of those post moves (Oden was WAY bigger than those players), than Dwight can do all of that too.

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Rookie year he scored 1 ppg on jumpers, shooting 27.8%

This year he is scoring 1 ppg on jumpers, shooting 27.4%.

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Again, what does this matter? Not everyone is or has to be a jumpshooter. ODEN IS NOT A JUMPSHOOTER! Please show me footage of Oden hitting a jumpshot, ANYWHERE. He didn't hit ONE that I remember in the NCAA tourney, and his hand was fine then.

As long as my player can get his points on 60% shooting, I don't give a damn how he does it. Do you honestly think Dwight won't improve his scoring by 2.5 points? He's 21! If he improves his scoring by 2.5 points, thats 20 and 12.5 with 2 blocks on 60% shooting.. That's GREAT by any standard. Plus when he gets help on his team, those turnovers will go down.

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people are acting like Howard is DRob. He isn't anywhere close.

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Um.. who said that? Howard just turned 21, Robinson wasn't EVEN IN THE NBA UNTIL AGE 24. In 3 years, it's certainly possible that Howard could raise his PPG by 7. I'm not saying it will happen, but it's DAMN SURE possible.

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Howards lone offensive talent is to try to overpower or outquick someone for a dunk.

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I'll take that at a 60% rate.

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And you wanted to know about Shaq.

http://www.82games.com/0607/06MIA16A.HTM

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Since Shaq makes these jumpers, please show me some kind of footage, I would LOVE to see it. Better yet, go ask a Heat/Laker fan about Shaq hitting jumpers, and let's see what they have to say about it.

[AtLaS]

Anyway I'm done with this, there's no reason to argue this point, because it's unlikely we get #1 anyway, and if we do, Orlando isn't going to do the deal.

Fact is, I'd be extremely happy with Oden or Howard.

[exodus]

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Again, what does this matter? Not everyone is or has to be a jumpshooter.

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They do if they want to be a great player. You have to expand your game to keep the defenses honest.

Of course if you are content with scoring 17 ppg then i guess you don't have to improve on anything.

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What does this matter? Isn't that an advantage for Howard?

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Because the thread starter said Howard has a 3 year advantage on Oden in terms of SKILLS, not athleticism. RIF.

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Again, what does this matter?

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Because you said Howard has improved his game in EVERY area, which he hasn't. In reality the weaknesses he showed as a rookie are the exact same weaknesses he has now, and he hasn't improved them.

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Since Shaq makes these jumpers, please show me some kind of footage, I would LOVE to see it

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Shaq has been shooting turnaround jumpers in the post his whole career. Granted he is only about 10 feet away but he still shoots them and makes them at a far higher rate than Howard, who hasn't improved this area of his game AT ALL.

[AHF]

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Fact is, I'd be extremely happy with Oden or Howard.

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That is my bottom-line, too.

I'm not sure which of those two I would prefer but I would rather have either of them for this team over Durant.

[CBAreject]

Ex., I think Howard's deficiencies are because of youth. He is awesome in many ways. You can't count on guys to develop always, though. From the looks of it, he doesn't seem to have a natural feel for the offensive game.

I also believe Howard is not a true 5. He can play 5 in the East, but he's a better 4. He's a sick rebounder, though, and because of that, his teams will always compete.

Oden, I believe, will be as good defensively (better shot blocking...maybe not quite as much rebounding). The difference is that he seems to have a post game developing that could make him a go-to option.

Because of the fact that Oden is a true C, a better shot-blocker, and most likely a better scorer, I could not trade him for Howard.

[Swatguy]

No doubt I'd do it. Exton, DH gets to the rim in ways others cannot. His athletism is way over Oden. To see Oden panting in the second half Monday gave me pause. DH is physically dominate and has not fully matured. Orlando has not figured out How to address DH offensively. They should have him in motion more with face-up opportunities. DH has handles, he started as a point guard. I saw a different Oden Monday and if he addresses his breathing issue he will be a every good player in the NBA, But I'd take Dwight.

[exodus]

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Oden, I believe, will be as good defensively (better shot blocking...maybe not quite as much rebounding). The difference is that he seems to have a post game developing that could make him a go-to option.

Because of the fact that Oden is a true C, a better shot-blocker, and most likely a better scorer, I could not trade him for Howard.

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Exactly. If i am going to pay someone $87 million he needs to be more than just a great rebounder.

There is something else that bothers me about Howard that I can't really quatify. I just get the feeling that he just doesn't have the drive to be a great player. Josh Smiths drive is obvious watching him play. Even though he may never develop the skills to be truly great you can tell the drive is there. I don't get that impression from Howard.