The era of the dominant Center might be on Hold?

[AHF]

Yao and the Rockets may not win anything but it isn't like Phoenix has won anything either.

Shaq, though, is still winning titles as recently as last season.

[BusBoyIsBack]

When was the last time a running team won a championship?

League is moving away from true center but to say they aren't successful anymore is a load of crap because all the teams with the best big men are all elite.

[Diesel]

Shaq did win... But this is the year that Shaq bows out. Just like the Pistons (Bad Boys) held on as long as they could until Jordan was finally ready. I think the same thing is going to happen to the Heat. I know that Flash is back, but they are entirely too slow to win this year.

[Sothron]

No running team has won since er...the Sonics in 1978 or so?I'm not counting the Showtime Lakers since they had Kareem.

[Diesel]

"The best big men."

I think this is the statement that needs the most examination.

Are they the best big men because they are on winning teams and doing well? What about the Other guys??

Let's name some:

Dwight Howard.

Zach Randolph.

Andrew Bogut.

Eddy Curry.

Elton Brand.

Jermaine Oneal.

Kevin Garnett.

Emeka Okafor.

Tyson Chandler.

I would say that all of these Big men are pretty good. Some Allstars, some should be allstars... Are you telling me that you don't consider these guys "good big men" because their teams are not elite? And if you consider them "good big men" why aren't their teams elite?

I haven't opened up the comparison yet, but consider we take the best PG and the best big and compare their teams "eliteness"... What do you think we'd find?

[AHF]

Quote:

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I haven't opened up the comparison yet, but consider we take the best PG and the best big and compare their teams "eliteness"... What do you think we'd find?

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That Steve Nash and Jason Kidd have no championships (Nash hasn't even made the finals) while Shaq and Duncan are counting their championship rings.

I expect that trend to continue with great big men - although the dearth of quality depth at center will open the door for the next few years to teams like Dallas, Phoenix, etc.

[Diesel]

Like I said, the turnaround happened only a few seasons ago. Up until the major rule changes, you are right... Bigs ruled the plans of basketball. We'd see Shaq vs. Deke in the finals..

However, since that time...

Bigs have fallen off.

Shaq has another ring, thanks mostly to Wade. (35ppg, 8rpg, 4apg)

However, there are other teams moving up and the bigs are starting to disappear.

Amazing is the fact that Jason Kidd was able to take NJ to the finals twice.

Amazing is the fact that the Suns played a whole year without Amare and won 60+ games and was in the WCFs.

Amazing is that Dallas gets to the finals, Passed Tim Duncan.... with no true low post dominate player.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Quote:

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"The best big men."

I think this is the statement that needs the most examination.

Are they the best big men because they are on winning teams and doing well? What about the Other guys??

Let's name some:

Dwight Howard.

Zach Randolph.

Andrew Bogut.

Eddy Curry.

Elton Brand.

Jermaine Oneal.

Kevin Garnett.

Emeka Okafor.

Tyson Chandler.

I would say that all of these Big men are pretty good. Some Allstars, some should be allstars... Are you telling me that you don't consider these guys "good big men" because their teams are not elite? And if you consider them "good big men" why aren't their teams elite?

I haven't opened up the comparison yet, but consider we take the best PG and the best big and compare their teams "eliteness"... What do you think we'd find?

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How many guys on your list are true centers?

Most of those guys would be consider PFs in the old days. Randoplph on the list as a true center is especially laughable.

[Diesel]

Well, originally, the comment was about dominant bigs.

If you want to talk about true Centers...

The record shows that most "true" Centers will be bust.

Don't think Shaq and Yao were the only Centers with Hype coming out of the draft... That's hindsight. You look over various guys who was hyped pretty good like Kwame Brown, Bogut, Olowakandi, Foyle, etc...

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Quote:

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Quote:

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"The best big men."

I think this is the statement that needs the most examination.

Are they the best big men because they are on winning teams and doing well? What about the Other guys??

Let's name some:

Dwight Howard.

Zach Randolph.

Andrew Bogut.

Eddy Curry.

Elton Brand.

Jermaine Oneal.

Kevin Garnett.

Emeka Okafor.

Tyson Chandler.

I would say that all of these Big men are pretty good. Some Allstars, some should be allstars... Are you telling me that you don't consider these guys "good big men" because their teams are not elite? And if you consider them "good big men" why aren't their teams elite?

I haven't opened up the comparison yet, but consider we take the best PG and the best big and compare their teams "eliteness"... What do you think we'd find?

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How many guys on your list are true centers?

Most of those guys would be consider PFs in the old days. Randoplph on the list as a true center is especially laughable.

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Actually, most centers in the old days would be considered PFs in today's game.

Olajuwon: 6-10 . . 250 ( smaller than ZaZa )

Moses Malone: 6-10 . . 215 ( thinner than Marvin )

Bill Laimbeer: 6-11 . . 245

Jack Sikma: 6-11 . . 230

James Edwards: 7-0 . . 225

The centers 20 years ago had the height, but few had the bulk that the PFs even have now. A guy like a Zack Randolph could've easily played center 20 years ago, because he has the weight to bang with people on the block, if need be.

The game is different now. The glamour position is at SF and SG. That's where the majority of your talent in the league is located.

[VarsitySlacker]

Quote:

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"The best big men."

I think this is the statement that needs the most examination.

Are they the best big men because they are on winning teams and doing well? What about the Other guys??

Let's name some:

Dwight Howard.

Zach Randolph.

Andrew Bogut.

Eddy Curry.

Elton Brand.

Jermaine Oneal.

Kevin Garnett.

Emeka Okafor.

Tyson Chandler.

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"the best big men" apparantly means something else to you, Diesel. To me, "best," when being stretched, means 4 players, maybe 5. 5 players who have the ability to dominate the post on both the offensive and defensive end of the court. Shaq was historically one, still is when he decides to be. Duncan is one. Stoudamire, when healthy, is one. Howard is probably there, if he isn't, he's close. Elton Brand and Carlos Boozer can make a case if we're going to use true PFs who split time. A healthy Yao Ming might top the list. I exceeded my limits, but I didn't come anywhere close to the likes of Eddy Curry or Zach Randolph, neither of which have any defensive presence whatsoever, the whole point of having a "best big man"

Of the 7 I listed, 3 of them are in the top 5 teams in basketball, one has stopped trying to do anything but put on a show, so probably shouldn't be considered elite after last year ended, all of them are in the playoffs, though Howard is carrying his team by himself, as Brand all but is.

The best "non big men"? Kevin Garnett tops this list. While he is big in the dictionary sense of the word, he's always played like a PG in a center's body. Because he doesn't play the "big man game," he's not one of the "best big men" (thought certainly one of the best players), but see where his team is. Shawn Marion is again one of the most talented all-around players in the past decade, but you saw what he was capable of by himself. Ray Allen is the best shooter in basketball, Gilbert Arenas is the best scorer. None of them would be in the playoffs if they were forced to carry a team on their back as do Howard and Brand. The "best big men" probably could. It wouldn't be pretty (and I have my reservations if Amare could), but they could at least squeak out a playoff birth, unlike, say, Minnesota. There are gifted players who can do that without a big man, but LeBron is the only one I can think of offhand, with a healthy Wade a good shot as well. Obviously, a team that's stacked from the top down like Detroit or Dallas doesn't need one, but that's because they're stacked.

The point has already been made in this thread, but it bears reiterating: Since Michael Jordan retired and it was "the age of the dominant center" again, how many championships have been won by a team that did not include Tim Duncan or Shaquille O'Neal? The only one that I can think of is the one that had Ben Wallace make up for not being dominant offensively by being extra-dominant. And even taking the whole Decade into affect, take away Jordan's rings and you have the championships by Hakeem.

I rambled here, but my point is, the age of the dominant center will NEVER be over. Overshadowed, perhaps, but there is maybe one player per decade who can when without a dominant big man. Jordan was the 90s. Kobe is the 2000s. LeBron will likely be the 2010s, and MAYBE Wade can do the same. But that's stretching it.

[Guest Walter]

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I rambled here, but my point is, the age of the dominant center will NEVER be over. Overshadowed, perhaps, but there is maybe one player per decade who can when without a dominant big man. Jordan was the 90s. Kobe is the 2000s. LeBron will likely be the 2010s, and MAYBE Wade can do the same. But that's stretching it.

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Well put. Duncan (or Robinson), Shaq (two teams), Hakeem...With a dominant enough center you also can begin an era. Thes e guys have all won multiple titles. You have the exception that may win one title with an super-duper star (whatever that is). But since Jordan there hasn't been a multiple winner without a dominant center.

W

[Diesel]

Persona...

Basketball Championships have been dominated by Personas more than Centers/Bigs.

Follow:

Bird/Johnson/Erving/Thomas = 80s/90s.

Jordan = 90s.

Duncan/Shaq = 2000s.

However, that's not to suggest that a dominant big always wins.

Pat Ewing has no rings.

Charles Barkley has no rings.

Karl Malone has no rings.

And the only reason Olajuwon has a ring is because Jordan thought he could play Baseball.

The only reason David Robinson has a ring is because he met up with Tim Duncan.

However, the game is doing that about face again.

Check the History.. More than just recent History...

Go back to the late 70s... go back to the Celtics era. It's been proven over and over again... After a time for dominance for 1 big like Miken, like Wilt, Like Shaq,..... There comes time for uptempo teams to dominate. And if a well coached uptempo team wants to, it will dominate beyond a good to great big man.

That's where we headed. I'm not proclaiming who that team will be, I'm just proclaiming that just like the other cycles in basketball, the slow plodding offense will disappear and unless you have a big that can run ala Russell, Kareem, Sikma, your team won't win.

For instance, Yao is supposed to be the next great big Center... right... With him Houston will win 0 championships. Not unless things change quickly.