Season of injuries frustrates Woodson (AJC)

[gsuteke]

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it's a stupid analogy. period. you've been backed into a corner so now you have resorted to name calling. cute.

who should I trust, the doctors, training staff, and athletes themselves in particular on a professional sports team, or an internet message board bomb thrower?

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...and a professional. I've been consulted by orthopaedists on a player's readiness. I've even consulted (paid and unpaid) with players in this very situation on the college and in similar situations on the professional level. The later an NFL starting running back treated "off the books" because the player didn't want it known he was injured by team staff during contract negotiations. I do know quite a bit about this.

I can tell you that the pressure to get a player back is immense, on everyone involved it seems, including the physician. That pressure leads to mistakes but more importantly NEVER is a player after a STRESS fracture "cleared" to undergo significantly MORE STRESS than the amunt of STRESS that originally caused the injury (certainly not this soon). It was a STRESS injury. It shouldn't be too hard for the average person to comprehend that MORE STRESS will significantly more likely cause the exact same or similar other reinjury.

It's you that is a message board bomb thrower on this account. You want to call hyperbole "stupid". That's on you cowboy. And frankly, I don't know what your "point" is. Is the coach not at all responsible for the health of his players? If not, who is? If so, wouldn't a responsible coach not play an already injured player who had played 40+ MPG in 16-18 games (many blow-out loses) 45 minutes? Wouldn't a responsible coach not increase a player's MPG frmo 25 to 43 AFTER a STRESS injury? It would seem they would. When they don't and it blows up, shouldn't it blow up in their face? It would seem it should.

Where exacly are you on this but against hyperbole? Do you have an opinion or are you going to keep bashing hyperbole? Nothing like the easy target of bashing intended hyperbole as not realistic. You're captain obvious! Good for you.

W

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it wasn't "hyperbole" until you got yourself backed into a corner over throwing out sensationalistic garbage on the internet in a lame attempt to prove some off the wall theory you have. it was a legitimate half baked attempt on your part to add substance to a flimsy argument.

you decide whom to believe:

1. pro team's doctors, trainers, athlete himself

2. internet message board guy

[macdaddy]

'haven't had our 9-10 man rotation'.....ever in Woody's tenure. Its always been about a 7 man rotation injuries or not. Unless you count Royal playing 30 seconds at the end of the first quarter as 'rotation'

Also, I don't think we really did lead the league in games lost to injury this year. I could be wrong but I swear I heard them say we were actually middle of the road.

[gsuteke]

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'haven't had our 9-10 man rotation'.....ever in Woody's tenure. Its always been about a 7 man rotation injuries or not. Unless you count Royal playing 30 seconds at the end of the first quarter as 'rotation'

Also, I don't think we really did lead the league in games lost to injury this year. I could be wrong but I swear I heard them say we were actually middle of the road.

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i thought they led the league as of a week or so ago. that was second hand knowledge.

[Swatguy]

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'haven't had our 9-10 man rotation'.....ever in Woody's tenure. Its always been about a 7 man rotation injuries or not. Unless you count Royal playing 30 seconds at the end of the first quarter as 'rotation'

Also, I don't think we really did lead the league in games lost to injury this year. I could be wrong but I swear I heard them say we were actually middle of the road.

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Wrong 144 games missed by players. No. 1

Didn't JJ get injured by Este, not fatigue?

[gsuteke]

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'haven't had our 9-10 man rotation'.....ever in Woody's tenure. Its always been about a 7 man rotation injuries or not. Unless you count Royal playing 30 seconds at the end of the first quarter as 'rotation'

Also, I don't think we really did lead the league in games lost to injury this year. I could be wrong but I swear I heard them say we were actually middle of the road.

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Wrong 144 games missed by players. No. 1

Didn't JJ get injured by Este, not fatigue?

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and he didn't get sat down for a long time afterwards.

[AHF]

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'haven't had our 9-10 man rotation'.....ever in Woody's tenure. Its always been about a 7 man rotation injuries or not. Unless you count Royal playing 30 seconds at the end of the first quarter as 'rotation'

Also, I don't think we really did lead the league in games lost to injury this year. I could be wrong but I swear I heard them say we were actually middle of the road.

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Wrong 144 games missed by players. No. 1

Didn't JJ get injured by Este, not fatigue?

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He got hurt by Este early in the game and then Woodson played him more than 40 minutes over the rest of the game. Then the injury is so severe that he is shut down for the rest of the season.

[Yeti]

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Wrong 144 games missed by players. No. 1

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I thought I saw a graphic at the end of the Celtics game that showed they had a lot more games missed than us.

But that is all BS. Woody has got to quit playing the "I'm just a victim" card. That is bull. He is responsible for the level of play, development of young players, tactics in the game, etc. If he can't step up and take responsibility then he shouldn't be a head coach. If he's the head coach and he doesn't have what he needs to be successful then he should be in BK's face demanding what he needs. He's got to show some leadership or go back to being an assistant. This whining, "wo is me" just shows that he isn't ready to be in charge.

By the way, have you ever seen a sports franchise where the coach, GM, and owners try so hard to hide from the fans and the media? I haven't heard of a radio interview in a long time. I thought it was poor last year, but now it is worse.

[AHF]

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Wrong 144 games missed by players. No. 1

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I thought I saw a graphic at the end of the Celtics game that showed they had a lot more games missed than us.

But that is all BS. Woody has got to quit playing the "I'm just a victim" card. That is bull. He is responsible for the level of play, development of young players, tactics in the game, etc. If he can't step up and take responsibility then he shouldn't be a head coach. If he's the head coach and he doesn't have what he needs to be successful then he should be in BK's face demanding what he needs. He's got to show some leadership or go back to being an assistant. This whining, "wo is me" just shows that he isn't ready to be in charge.

By the way, have you ever seen a sports franchise where the coach, GM, and owners try so hard to hide from the fans and the media? I haven't heard of a radio interview in a long time. I thought it was poor last year, but now it is worse.

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Bernie Mullins will be on tomorrow morning around 8:30 - 9:00 on AM 680. He is on nearly every Friday morning.

The one strategic move that really gets me from Woody is that Lo played more minutes with much lower efficiency than all our other frontcourt players when we were trying to win games and then played less when we were trying to lose them. Once it became clear he wasn't as productive as the other players, shouldn't there have been some kind of adjustment like playing the young guys until they fouled out and then having Lo in reserve?

[Guest Walter]

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it wasn't "hyperbole" until you got yourself backed into a corner over throwing out sensationalistic garbage on the internet in a lame attempt to prove some off the wall theory you have. it was a legitimate half baked attempt on your part to add substance to a flimsy argument.

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Blah, blah, blah...

GSUteke, If you thought a "100 hour work week" was a serious, non-hyperbole then you're just plain gullable. It was meant to get the point across, but I would expect you to get lost in the hyperbole and run your mouth off like a spicket.

Of course I provided you with the same boss/employee example providing a "30% increase in work hours" verses the 100 hour work week and you ran from it like a crying baby like you run from everything else. Whah. Face it. You whine and whine and whine about intended hyperbole but you can't face the example itself. I'll present it again for you:

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Gsuteke, let's say you are suffering from mono but continue to work your job in construction and your boss says "I need you to work 30% more hours and significantly harder for the next 4 weeks" (without more pay, of course). Let's say it's not really solely to earn the company more money but also to aid the boss personally as he is struggling to keep his job. Let's say the boss doesn't ask the same sacrifice of other, healthier employees. In fact, he keeps them out of work. How would you feel and do you think your compromised body could manage the stress/strain?

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You aren't man enough but to wine about hyperbole.

Anyhow, next...

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you decide whom to believe:

1. pro team's doctors, trainers, athlete himself

2. internet message board guy

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Two points:

1) TWO players were DIRECTLY injured seriously in a span of 3 weeks as a result of the coach's decision to STRESS both JJ by playing him 45 minutes in a game immediately after a practice injury and Childress and average of 43 MPG over 3 weeks just 3 months following his return from another STRESS related foot fracture. These are the facts. They are stress related injuries and Woodson is being accused of over-STRESSING his players. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to connect the two.

2) I'm not just an "internet message board guy" and I demonstrated that by saying the following, which you also ran from:

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I have faced a similar situation as an athlete and medical professional. I've been consulted by orthopaedists on a player's readiness. I've even consulted (paid and unpaid) with players in this very situation on the college and in similar situations on the professional level. The later an NFL starting running back treated "off the books" because the player didn't want it known he was injured by team staff during contract negotiations. I do know quite a bit about this.

I can tell you that the pressure to get a player back is immense, on everyone involved it seems, including the physician. That pressure leads to mistakes but more importantly

NEVER is a player after a STRESS fracture "cleared" to undergo significantly MORE STRESS than the amunt of STRESS that originally caused the injury (certainly not this soon). It was a STRESS injury.

It shouldn't be too hard for the average person to comprehend that MORE STRESS will significantly more likely cause the exact same or similar other reinjury.

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And yes, I do expect you to believe me. Why? Because of:

1) the above, my personal and professional experience.

2) Your own common sense. It doesn't take much to connect the OVER-STRESSING Woody does to certain players relative to a league average to their STRESS injuries.

3) That just TWO DAYS prior to Childress' injury I stated that Woody was about to run Childress and JS "into the ground"...TWO DAYS prior!

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Note: JS is averaging 42.6 MPG. Josh Childress is averaging 43.2 in the last 5

...is this really necessary?

Just absurd.

Run them into the ground like you did JJ

, Woody. All to save your sorry ass.

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link

Sadly, I called it just TWO DAYS prior. Not that it was hard given the extrordinary many MPG these players were getting. But I did call it...Of course, I don't know nothing about this as I am only a former athlete (with a foot stress fracture as a cross country runner), a medical professional who has dealt with athletes, and have been a consultant to physicians and amateur and professional players. I don't no nothing and apparently Woodson does despite TWO of his players getting easily avoidable, serious STRESS injuries.

GSUteke, you ain't got nuttin' in this one. Quit your whining and either face up or go home. No more hiding behind your criticism of intended hyperbole. Examine the evidence or tuck tail.

BTW, it isn't hyperbole to say your the world's biggest [censored].

W

[gsuteke]

who are you going to believe?

1. doctors, trainers, the athelete himself

2. crazy wacky internet message board guy

you chase your own tail like a dog Walt.

[Guest Walter]

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who are you going to believe?

1. doctors, trainers, the athelete himself

2. crazy wacky internet message board guy

you chase your own tail like a dog Walt.

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See teke run away. Buy, buy teke. Scared of a little truth, but more than willing to beat up on a little intended hyperbole. "Take that sarcasm!" You go tough guy.

GSUteke, you obviously don't have a clue yourself about doctors, trainers, and athletes, the politics that surrounds sports injuries, and the fact that doctors clear players to return to their PRIOR LEVEL OF FUNCTION (PLOF) not 30% MORE THAN their PLOF. The JC instance is also corroborated by the JJ incidence in which Woody played JJ FOURTY FIVE MINUTES after he was injured in practice. I would expect you to appeal to authority when you have no first hand knowledge and are a consistently ignorant, but I think the facts are fairly clear. The only thing more clear is that you run from them.

If intende hyperbole were a sofa, GSUteke would be doing this:

Come out GSUteke and state you believe Woody bears no responsibility for the STRESS induced injuries to his players!

[Final_quest]

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Buy, buy teke.

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Sell! Sell!

[Guest Walter]

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Buy, buy teke.

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Sell! Sell!

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I never proof read enough. Oh well.

W

[BusBoyIsBack]

Woodson is a bonehead but in his defense no coach can do anything with a time that is injured the whole season and doesn't have a 1 or a 5.

[gsuteke]

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It is a matter of fact, the Hawks had the Most injuries in the league. A coach can only coach his players. With as injured as this roster has been it is a wonder to win 20 games. Woody has done as good a job as any.

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Woodson played JJ FOURTY SIX MINUTES after he was already injured and kicked in the calf. This led to a hematoma which his kept him out until now. Prior to this injury JJ had played 16 of 18 games over 40 minutes. How many of those were we really in? Unreal abuse.

JC was averaging 43 MPG in the span following JJ's injury. This despite him being 3 months returned from a STRESS fracture and having a 25 MPG average prior. You don't put THAT amount of STRESS on a healing STRESS fracture even if you're competing for a playoff position, much less the 3rd worst record.

Woodson injures his players in the name of job security and then blames injuries to his players for his job insecurity.

And you support him in his endeavor. YUCK!

W

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Walter perhaps after I'm done schooling you on the ins and outs of how wrong you are on the medical side of your half baked conspiracy theories you'll shut the hell up once and for all.

Sit down and take notes son:

Walter says

Woodson played JJ FOURTY SIX MINUTES after he was already injured and kicked in the calf. This led to a hematoma which his kept him out until now.

A hematoma such as this is caused when the initial trauma results in displacement of skin and subcutaneous fatty tissue away from more deeply located, fixed fascia and underlying muscle, with the consequent formation of blood-filled cysts surrounded by dense fibrous tissue. The lesion's self-perpetuating, expanding nature appears to be due to the irritant effects of blood and its breakdown products leading to repeated exudation or bleeding from capillaries in the granulation tissue of the cyst wall. Typical hematomas form within 30 minutes of the initial trauma and last from 2 to 4 weeks.

This hematoma formed under Joe's calf after Este kicked him during the game. Joe didn't complain or ask to come out of the game so how was Woodson to know Joe had a hematoma forming under his calf muscle without setting up a Magnetic resonance (MR) images booth for each player to walk through as they go into each TV timeout? Walt you're a genius! You could even get Hartsfield-International to sponsor one of these things with real NSA Employees! I can see it now, "Excuse me Mr. Smoove, please place any loose metal objects on your person such as jewelry into this tray as you exit the bench please."

Walt says

Prior to this injury JJ had played 16 of 18 games over 40 minutes. How many of those were we really in? Unreal abuse.

In the 18 games prior to the Miami game in which Joe got injured the Hawks won 7, lost 3 by 4 points or less, and lost 3 by 7 points to the West's San Antonio, LA Lakers, and NOK Hornets. Since you're the supposed medical guy Walt let the sales guy do something you're seemingly terrible at... math. The Hawks were in 72.2% of those games!

Walter says

JC was averaging 43 MPG in the span following JJ's injury. This despite him being 3 months returned from a STRESS fracture and having a 25 MPG average prior. You don't put THAT amount of STRESS on a healing STRESS fracture even if you're competing for a playoff position, much less the 3rd worst record.

On Tuesday, April 3rd the Hawks announced Josh Childress would miss the rest of the season with a right foot fracture. This is not to be confused with the left foot fracture which caused him to miss 19 games, from Nov. 19 to Dec. 23. There was no "healing STRESS fracture" injured. You're talking about the wrong damn foot Walter! You must have Childress' left foot confused with the one you are perpetually sticking in your mouth.

Although it is lost on you in a completely unrelated event it takes 4 to 6 weeks for a stress fracture to fully heal in a human foot. I bet you already knew that didn't you Walt? Well if that's the case why are you posting this crap on Hawksquawk? You're bringing up something that happened to his left foot 4 1/2 months ago. *my best Walter impersonation* "Or was it the right foot?" LOL @ Walt.

Walter you've got all these crazy, wacky opinions you bombard everyone of us every day with and for the most part they're a waste of bandwidth on an internet message board.

Walter, for the love of God, please take your blanket and go the hell home!

for those of you whom enjoy the crap Walter makes up you can see him and the rest of his Dungeons and Dragons crew at www.therearealiensamongus.org

Buy, Buy Walt

[DJlaysitup]

Well in my opinion you are both wrong and both a little bit right.

JJ is sitting out for the good of the tanking effort. He could play tomorrow - no problem - hell I used to play football - you get kicked all the time - with heavier shoes. Your muscles hurt for a day or two but you play through it.

[gsuteke]

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Well in my opinion you are both wrong and both a little bit right.

JJ is sitting out for the good of the tanking effort. He could play tomorrow - no problem - hell I used to play football - you get kicked all the time - with heavier shoes. Your muscles hurt for a day or two but you play through it.

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please don't mistake me pointing out that Walter is clueless with me taking up for Mike Woodson. the two are mutually exclusive. i just want to clarify there big guy.

[Guest Walter]

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Walter perhaps after I'm done schooling you on the ins and outs of how wrong you are on the medical side of your half baked conspiracy theories you'll shut the hell up once and for all.

Sit down and take notes son:

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You've got to be kidding.

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A hematoma such as this is caused when the initial trauma results in displacement of skin and subcutaneous fatty tissue away from more deeply located, fixed fascia and underlying muscle, with the consequent formation of blood-filled cysts surrounded by dense fibrous tissue. The lesion's self-perpetuating, expanding nature appears to be due to the irritant effects of blood and its breakdown products leading to repeated exudation or bleeding from capillaries in the granulation tissue of the cyst wall. Typical hematomas form within 30 minutes of the initial trauma and last from 2 to 4 weeks.

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Son, I do this for a living. I am a Masters level Physical Therapist and have practiced as a Physical Therapist Assistant and been a personal trainer for years. What the above Wikipedia crop doesn't tell you is that hematomas in the lower leg where swelling would tend to pool, venous return easily becomes overwhelmed, and fascial compartments limit where pooling blood can go, can lead to life threatening conditions with less warning than would be expected. Fasciotomies, wound vacs, etc. are a common practice where I work for this very reason. JJ didn't reach this level, but the mere mention of "compartmental syndrome" indicates how serious this was. This wasn't a simple bruise although frankly I'm not sure what your were trying to show by cropping Winkipedia other than your own ignorance of the subject. I could pop off that encyclo-babble with my mind turned off. You had to research it. Nice try son.

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Walter says

Woodson played JJ FOURTY SIX MINUTES

after

he was already injured and kicked in the calf. This led to a hematoma which his kept him out until now.

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This hematoma formed under Joe's calf after Este kicked him during the game.

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THE ORIGINAL INJURY OCCURED IN THE PRACTICE BEFORE THE GAME ACCORDING TO BRUCE LEVENSON! I will not post the entire email as I did not receive his permission which I usually ask for. However, I made the same in game injury claim as you and was corrected by Levenson:

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...JJ's injury was the result of a kick from a teammate in practice...

Bruce

-----Original Message-----

From: Walter Hill [mailto:@hotmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 10:27 PM

To: Bruce Levenson

Subject: Please shut it down. Woody has cost JJ's health and now JC.

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Joe didn't complain or ask to come out of the game so how was Woodson to know Joe had a hematoma forming

under

his calf muscle without setting up a Magnetic resonance (MR) images booth for each player to walk through as they go into each TV timeout?

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Ignorance is no defense. Levenson even knew when the injury occured and certainly Woody knew. The fact that Woody was not only NOT taking the necessary precaution with our All-star in a meaningless game AFTER he was injured IN PRACTICE, but was playing him FOURTY SIX MINUTES is just player homicide. JJ is an iron man. He'll NEVER and I mean NEVER ask to come out. It doesn't take a genius to observe this about him. That is wonderful but as a coach it forces you to protect your player and the franchise more. When you not only don't protect him, but insist he play FOURTY FIVE minutes, you may appeal to ignorance, something you do well GSUteke, but for a professional ignorance is not an excuse.

...I stopped reading your ramblings...maybe you cut them out of Winkipedia. Onto the next point...

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Walter says

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JC was averaging

43 MPG

in the span following JJ's injury. This despite him being 3 months returned from a STRESS fracture and having a 25 MPG average prior. You don't put THAT amount of STRESS on a healing STRESS fracture even if you're competing for a playoff position, much less the 3rd worst record.

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On Tuesday, April 3rd the Hawks announced Josh Childress would miss the rest of the season with a right foot fracture. This is not to be confused with the left foot fracture which caused him to miss 19 games, from Nov. 19 to Dec. 23. There was no "healing STRESS fracture" injured.

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Do you not realize he's had at least one prior foot fracture at Stanford. This guy has a propensity for them.

What often happens after a foot stress fracture is the other foot or LE, often similarly succeptible (see Childress' propensity for them), compensates with increased weight bearing or increassed STRESS. Poor weight bearing habits form, pain in the involved foot reduces weight bearing in that foot and increases it in the other (compensation). The other foot's Spring ligament if not already elongated, elongates due to the increased stress. Without the support of the Spring ligament the foots' longitudinal and mid-tarsal arches drop resulting in increased stress in the metatarsals (If it's a 4th or 5th metatarsal fx there is a different mode of injury, but I can't go into everything.). Arch supports may help this (I'm assuming they were provided, but if your weight bearing is so altered off the formerly injured and on the not yet injured (or maybe not recently injured) foot, no semi-rigid arch support would hold under such athletic stress and a rigid arch support might cause it's own list of problems.

This happens all the time. Put an eye patch on and you get adjacent eye fatigue or neck problems. A guy with seemingly unilateral knee degeneration favors his right knee and 2 months later begins having left knee problems that show up on x-ray (where they didn't before). I know as I am that later guy.

In short, I'm not suprised at all that a STRESS fracture to one foot + a MAJOR increase in STRESS demands (43 MPG) and an uncertain, prior related injury history resulted in a STRESS fracture in the other foot.

Anymore questions Winkipedia?

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Although it is lost on you in a completely unrelated event it takes 4 to 6 weeks for a stress fracture to fully heal in a human foot. I bet you already knew that didn't you Walt?

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Where did you get that from? "Unrelated"? You're a hoot!

More Winkipedia? Bone heals in 6-8 weeks given a complete break. A stress fx if not complete, maybe 4 weeks. However, bone remodels for a year after a fracture and soft tissue injuries remain. More importantly, PAIN remains, compensations ensue and endanger the seemingly healthy (but likely already similarly at risk) foot or don't and endager the formerly hurt one. You act like you don't have a clue of what you're talking about. Have you EVER had an injury in your life? Did you go to Winkipedia for answers? No, you came to me. Yes, unless you live in a bubble, bubble boy, you've seen me and I've explained your injury, rehab prognosis, etc. to you. I didn't get it off of Winkipedia and I dAmn sure didn't brag about doing so.

GSUteke, you are about as nuanced and enlightened as a rock. My little pet rock.

W

[gsuteke]

Fall on your sword already Walter!

admit you were being a melodramatic narcissistic internet message board geek and move the hell on.

[Guest Walter]

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Fall on your sword already Walter!

admit you were being a melodramatic narcissistic internet message board geek and move the hell on.

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That's your response?

I demonstrate the calf injury occured in a practice BEFORE the game in which JJ was played 46 minutes AND I demonstrate sophisticated knowledge explaining the injury to JC and your Winkipedia-self can only come back with "oh, give up already"? THAT'S your response?!?

You sound like Sir Black Knight of Hawksquawk:

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Walter: Look, you stupid bastard. You've got no arms left.

The Black Knight of Hawksquawk: Yes, I have.

Walter: Look!

The Black Knight of Hawksquawk: Just a flesh wound.

[kick]

Walter: Look, stop that.

The Black Knight of Hawksquawk: Chicken!

[kick]

Chickennn!

Walter: Look, I'll have your leg.

[kick]

[whop]

[Walter chops the The Black Knight of Hawksquawk's right leg off]

The Black Knight of Hawksquawk: Right. I'll do you for that!

Walter: You'll what?

The Black Knight of Hawksquawk: Come here!

Walter: What are you going to do, bleed on me?

The Black Knight of Hawksquawk: I'm invincible!

Walter: You're a looney.

The Black Knight of Hawksquawk: The Black Knight of Hawksquawk always triumphs! Have at you! Come on, then.

[whop]

[Walter chops the The Black Knight of Hawksquawk's last leg off]

The Black Knight of Hawksquawk: Oh? All right, we'll call it a draw.

Walter: Come, Patsy.

The Black Knight of Hawksquawk: Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off! FALL ON YOUR SWORD WALTER!

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What a simpleton, idiot you are. The Black Knight of Hawksquawk Winkipedias a definition of "hematoma" and "fractures heal in 4-6 weeks" like he knows what the hell it means and then makes a complete fool of himself by arguing with an orthopaedic Physical Therapist (who custom makes orthotics, no less...for GUESS WHAT...among other things...foot fractures) about not only medicine but an orthopaedic injury. What do you have Sir Black Knight of Hawksquawk but an idiot's death wish?

Don't argue with an orthopaedic physical therapist about non-surgical orthopaedic injuries, Sir Black Knight of Hawksquawk. That's like arguing with AHF about...well, anything else.

Go Winkipedia something.

W