PGs vs. Bigs....

[Diesel]

Below are listed the top PGs by ESPN efficiency. The question of "Eliteness" comes to mind. Does an Elite PG have more influence on weather his team will be successful vs. an Elite Big? I think the answer is yes. I think the determining factor is weather these top PGs have elite teams.

Funny is that it's being said that LAC has bowed out this year because of the injury to Livingston and the inconsistency of Sam Cassell. What about Elton Brand?

Steve Nash , PHX

Gilbert Arenas , WAS

Jason Kidd , NJN

Baron Davis , GSW

Chris Paul , NOK

Chauncey Billups , DET

Deron Williams , UTA

Tony Parker , SAS

Maurice Williams , MIL

Kirk Hinrich , CHI

Andre Miller , PHI-DEN

Jason Terry , DAL

Leandro Barbosa , PHX

Ben Gordon , CHI

Brandon Roy , POR

T.J. Ford , TOR

Monta Ellis , GSW

Stephon Marbury , NYK

Mike Bibby , SAC

Raymond Felton , CHA

Jamal Crawford , NYK

Jamaal Tinsley , IND

Jarrett Jack , POR

Boris Diaw , PHX

Rafer Alston , HOU

Anthony Parker , TOR

Earl Boykins , MIL-DEN

Delonte West , BOS

Brevin Knight , CHA

Sam Cassell , LAC

Shaun Livingston , LAC

Charlie Bell , MIL

Jason Williams , MIA

Chucky Atkins , MEM

[Packfill]

The thing is there are really only about a half dozen true "elite" point guards (Nash, Kidd, Paul, Deron, Arenas, Billups) and about the same number of "elite" big men (Shaq, Yao, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Brand) that can really be considered elite.

That is why you get one when you have the opportunity. Having one doesn't necessarily guarantee success since many of those guys wil miss the playoffs, but it is a nice foundation to build on.

[Diesel]

My point still is that a foundation of an elite Big doesn't seem to be as prosperous as it use to be.

It used to be if you got an "elite" big, you were set.

However, now... You get an elite PG, you have better chances. I think that's all do to the style of play which is more dominant right now.

Another thing is that both ways, you listing of elite is limited to teams that are winning and not what the players is doing.

Zach Randolph is not on your list. However, he's put up MVP type numbers this year. Baron Davis is not on your list. Ditto.

I think we've fallen into the trap of letting media dictate who is elite and who is not. I was shocked to see Ray Allen still in the top 5. The reason I was shocked is because the National media doesn't show the Sonics. Only the Suns, Mavs, Heat, and Cavs. You've been made to believe tht these teams and teams like this have elite players. They just have Marketable. players. If Jordan said he was coming back to be a Hawk. The Hawks would have 27 games on national TV next year.

[AHF]

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Zach Randolph is not on your list. However, he's put up MVP type numbers this year.

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Randolph is far from a top 5 big man in the league. He is not close to Duncan, Garnett, etc. - particularly because he does not influence a game defensively.

[DJlaysitup]

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My point still is that a foundation of an elite Big doesn't seem to be as prosperous as it use to be....

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That's horse poop. Name me one "elite big" that plays on a losing team (except Zaza that is ).

Elite bigs (like Bosh) don't always win it all - but they lead their teams to the playoffs.

[Packfill]

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My point still is that a foundation of an elite Big doesn't seem to be as prosperous as it use to be....

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That's horse poop. Name me one "elite big" that plays on a losing team (except Zaza that is ).

Elite bigs (like Bosh) don't always win it all - but they lead their teams to the playoffs.

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Garnett?

[Packfill]

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My point still is that a foundation of an elite Big doesn't seem to be as prosperous as it use to be.

It used to be if you got an "elite" big, you were set.

However, now... You get an elite PG, you have better chances. I think that's all do to the style of play which is more dominant right now.

Another thing is that both ways, you listing of elite is limited to teams that are winning and not what the players is doing.

Zach Randolph is not on your list. However, he's put up MVP type numbers this year. Baron Davis is not on your list. Ditto.

I think we've fallen into the trap of letting media dictate who is elite and who is not. I was shocked to see Ray Allen still in the top 5. The reason I was shocked is because the National media doesn't show the Sonics. Only the Suns, Mavs, Heat, and Cavs. You've been made to believe tht these teams and teams like this have elite players. They just have Marketable. players. If Jordan said he was coming back to be a Hawk. The Hawks would have 27 games on national TV next year.

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Again, this goes to the question of who is truly an "elite" big or point guard. Once you get past guys like Nash, Kidd (a younger Kidd really), Garnett, Shaq and a few others you are not talking about the same caliber of player that led champions of yesteryear (i.e., Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Jordan, etc.).

This is why everyone wants Oden. He has the potential to be a game changer. Obviously he needs some work, but the potential is there because of his athletic ability, youth, attitude and awareness.

[Diesel]

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That's horse poop. Name me one "elite big" that plays on a losing team (except Zaza that is ).

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Kevin Garnett.

Dwight Howard.

Elton Brand.

Zach Randolph.

These guys were either Allstars or supposed to have been Allstars.

All on losing teams.

[BusBoyIsBack]

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That's horse poop. Name me one "elite big" that plays on a losing team (except Zaza that is ).

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Kevin Garnett.

Dwight Howard.

Elton Brand.

Zach Randolph.

These guys were either Allstars or supposed to have been Allstars.

All on losing teams.

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You're missing the point. Having a true center doesn't automatically mean your team is championship caliber. Because the center is only ONE POSITION.

So saying that someone like KG is ineffective when they don't have a team around him is ridiculous because you throw a guard on that team instead of him and they don't win any more games.

Same thing if you take off Randolph and just make Jack an elite guard.

Brand and Howard have average teams around them and they look like they will both make the playoffs.

Point is if you build around a big, the success rate is very high. But you can't just have the big and nothing else. Obviously no one player can make that big of an impact.

If he did his contract would be ridiculous.

[Diesel]

Yet, people argue me down that Shaq and Duncan wins championships almost singlehandedly...

That's the poop in the room. It's been a long time since Shaq or Duncan has ever been on a team with little talent.

Moreover, in this conversation, a allstar calibre PG trumps a allstar calbre big. If you have JO and JKidd.. JKidd has shown that he can make his team championship calibre.

Just look at the difference a CP3 makes.