Who Stole Shelden's Minutes???

[AtLaS]

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Or to play Shelden at the 5, which is what we all knew would have to happen if he was to get minutes. You act as if this is a startling revelation, but it's exactly why people wanted Randy Foye instead.

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I also wanted Roy/Foye and was pissed that we drafted Shelden, and still am.. Shelden was a HORRIBLE pick.. However, that doesn't mean Marvin deserves to start and play over him. Shelden is a lot better than most here give him credit for. He's not an athletic freak, but he's strong, can position D, can rebound, and he knows the game.

[Popeye]

You can also say that Solomon took Shelden's minutes because Solo was starting at 4 for a few games. How are you going to take Marvin out and let Shelden guard quicker guys on the perimeter?? It's all about machups, You can't have Smoove and Shelden togeter guarding much quicker guys.

JSmoove stole most of the Shelden's minutes because he moved to the PF. He sucked at SF for the first couple of weeks.

[exodus]

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He's had a really bad +/- all season long.

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There is one point i wanted to make which doesn't really have much relevance to the argument here.

Early in the year it was pointed out that Sheldens defensive +/- was horrible, that the team gave up way more points when he was on the floor. I said at the time that it was too early in the season for those numbers to be relevant.

Now his numbers look a little different.

http://www.82games.com/0607/06ATL15D.HTM

The team gives up 1.3 fewer ppg when he is playing. Early in the year his number showed the team giving up something like 8 more ppg when Shelden played.

Of course Shelden's overall +/- still sucks (but isn't as bad as it was early in the year) because of his problems on offense.

The same situation happened with Childress only it was reversed. The early season numbers showed him as a defensive stopper. They Hawks were giving up almost 10 fewer ppg when Childress played. Now he is at -2 which is still a big improvement over the last two years.

[mrhonline]

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The team gives up 1.3 fewer ppg when he is playing. Early in the year his number showed the team giving up something like 8 more ppg when Shelden played.

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I don't see those numbers, Ex. I see the team giving up 0.9 more points/game on defense when he's on the court.

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Now he is at -2 which is still a big improvement over the last two years.

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I've seen Marvin's numbers go way up as well...it's part of maturing as a player. You have to learn how to make the team better. (Some players never learn).

[Diesel]

Last time I looked, Childress was backing up the 2 position. Those who play 3 are Marvin and Smoove. When Marvin plays, Smoove is pushed to 4 and Shelden plays 5 minutes per game. Yet.. Marvin is not so effective in any lineup.

Seems to me that he plays to try to validate picking him.

Shelden plays fills a purpose. He rebounds, he plays positional defense on the other teams big. He gives us some sort of post presence. What does Marvin bring?? Hope that one day he can be as good as Al Harrington? Hope that one day he can put up 18 ppg consistently? Come on man. Marvin hasn't brung one thing to the table that we don't already have.

[mrhonline]

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Last time I looked, Childress was backing up the 2 position.

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Yep, a 35 min./game backup SG. That's what he is.

[exodus]

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I don't see those numbers, Ex. I see the team giving up 0.9

more

points/game on defense when he's on the court.

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LOL they must have just updated them. And you are reading them wrong anyway. His number is -.9 which means the team gives up .9 FEWER ppg. His offensive number is -5.7 but his overall number is -4.8.

However the basic point remains the same. Early in the year the numbers showed the team giving up way more points when he was playing. Now that is not the case.

[Diesel]

He also played some Point Guard throughout the season, what's your point?

Childress is not the issue or the problem. The problem is Marvin. He plays over 30 minutes a game and really he doesn't deserve to.

So again, let me ask it. What is it that Marvin brings? Other than HOPE that "one day, he will turn into..."..

We're going into year three of the hope plan. Think about how much we have wagered on this hope plan? We could have done a lot better with a Bob Hope plan and just picked CP3.

[mrhonline]

You're not really worth the effort, but for ole' times sake:

He's put up 14/6 since the All-Star break, and his numbers are nearly identical to Childress', despite being three years younger.

Do I think Childress could have put up 14/6 after the All-Star break if he were 20? Not in a million years.

Al Harrington only managed 8/5 at the same age.

[AHF]

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He also played some Point Guard throughout the season, what's your point?

Childress is not the issue or the problem. The problem is Marvin. He plays over 30 minutes a game and really he doesn't deserve to.

So again, let me ask it. What is it that Marvin brings? Other than HOPE that "one day, he will turn into..."..

We're going into year three of the hope plan. Think about how much we have wagered on this hope plan? We could have done a lot better with a Bob Hope plan and just picked CP3.

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90% of the board acknoledges Paul or Deron would have been a better choice.

Marvin gives me some hope for the following reason:

5.5 ppg, 4.0 rpg

6.2 ppg, 4.6 rpg

8.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg

9.3 ppg, 5.4 rpg

10.4 ppg, 5.3 rpg

12.3 ppg, 6.1 rpg

12.4 ppg, 4.2 rpg

11.8 ppg, 4.9 rpg

13.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg

12.6 ppg, 5.9 rpg

16.0 ppg, 6.1 rpg

What worries me most about Marvin, however, is his passive play.

[thesheedera]

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What worries me most about Marvin, however, is his passive play.

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Agreed 100%. He's showing rather clearly that his production will increase with time and experience. His aggressiveness is still inconsistent, like his production used to be. It would be logical to think that he will be more consistently aggressive the more experience he gets.

Seems like a good reason to keep him on the court.

But why play Lorenzen? Why not give Shelden Lorenzen's 15 MPG?

Hmmm, must be Marvin's fault for being picked #2.

Atlas, Diesel, what can Lorenzen do that Shelden can't do? Why did Lorenzen get on the court ahead of Shelden for so much time?

[AHF]

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What worries me most about Marvin, however, is his passive play.

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Agreed 100%. He's showing rather clearly that his production will increase with time and experience. His aggressiveness is still inconsistent, like his production used to be. It would be logical to think that he will be more consistently aggressive the more experience he gets.

Seems like a good reason to keep him on the court.

But why play Lorenzen? Why not give Shelden Lorenzen's 15 MPG?

Hmmm, must be Marvin's fault for being picked #2.

Atlas, Diesel, what can Lorenzen do that Shelden can't do? Why did Lorenzen get on the court ahead of Shelden for so much time?

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Questions that can only be answered by Mike Woodson. Like you, I think Shelden should have been playing backup minutes at PF and center once Josh Smith, Josh Childress, JJ, and Marvin were all healthy. I think Shelden would have been more productive than Lorenzen and the time would have better served his development. Of course, that assumes his injury would have permitted playing those minutes and I am in the dark about how much of an impact that injury had.

[jerrywest]

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What worries me most about Marvin, however, is his passive play.

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Agreed 100%. He's showing rather clearly that his production will increase with time and experience. His aggressiveness is still inconsistent, like his production used to be. It would be logical to think that he will be more consistently aggressive the more experience he gets.

Seems like a good reason to keep him on the court.

But why play Lorenzen? Why not give Shelden Lorenzen's 15 MPG?

Hmmm, must be Marvin's fault for being picked #2.

Atlas, Diesel, what can Lorenzen do that Shelden can't do? Why did Lorenzen get on the court ahead of Shelden for so much time?

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Questions that can only be answered by Mike Woodson. Like you, I think Shelden should have been playing backup minutes at PF and center once Josh Smith, Josh Childress, JJ, and Marvin were all healthy. I think Shelden would have been more productive than Lorenzen and the time would have better served his development. Of course, that assumes his injury would have permitted playing those minutes and I am in the dark about how much of an impact that injury had.

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Another reason last summers free agent signings were disastrous - Lo took away all the time from Shelden. Even the few wins Speedy and AJ brought to us may cost us Oden/Durant. Actually Speedy made that up by losing a lot of games for us. I loved the AJ trade, and he is a player, but for this draft, the wins he got could kill us.

[Traceman]

best future position is PF. I was not ready to call Smoove a PF (or a SF) early in the season because I believed that the jury was still out on what his best position would ultimately be. But after watching him for an entire season, I think it is clear that PF is where he needs to be. Smoove played mostly SF in November and averaged around 12/8/2. That is not bad but certainly nowhere near the numbers he has put up at mostly PF since then. He is averaging 20/10/3 in March and April, mostly at PF. Obviously, some of that is due to JJ being out but he averaged 17/9/3 in February and JJ was still playing.

As for Shelden, his minutes bottomed out in February at 8 mpg when Smoove was putting up 17/9/3 at PF.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Who stole Shelden's minutes? Zaza Pachulia!

I really think Shelden could have been a better 5.

Especially on D.

[PureGreatness]

the fact is that nobody stole sheldons minutes HE WAS JUST REPLACED AT THE MOMENT and woodson and sheldon wasnt seeing eye 2 eye.

[Gray Mule]

Noticed - All 5 starters for the Hawks were in double figures in their final game of the year.

Couldn't watch, Thrashers took the TV. I believe both

Williams boys started. My guess is that Shelden played

center, where he just may end up. He's not tall enouhg?

But he's strong enough and rebounds well.

Who robbed who of what? The combination of injury (Remember, Shelden wore a brace until recently) and the doghouse must be kept warm and filled.

If anyone really stole minutes, it was Woody. He always insisted on overusing all his "Favorite" players refusing to let them rest because he had no faith in whoever he had benched - - - (Or hid in the doghouse)