If someone said that in Year 2 Marvin would......

[BusBoyIsBack]

Marvin gets bashed a whole lot but if you really look at his age and numbers he's not so bad.

The fact that he basically improves every month in the numbers department is even more encouraging.

I really think next year could be his breakout year like Smoove.

[AHF]

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Marvin gets bashed a whole lot but if you really look at his age and numbers he's not so bad.

The fact that he basically improves every month in the numbers department is even more encouraging.

I really think next year could be his breakout year like Smoove.

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Look at Diesel's thread. I posted his month by month improvement earlier today.

[AtLaS]

These Marvin "support" threads are getting redundant. All he can do is score on open jumpers. He shoots a low %, can't drive, dribble, and always gets his lunch packed inside. He doesn't do anything outside of making jumpers either, and he's not the defender the Marvin "lovers" make him out to be.

He needs to gain weight and get a LOT stronger, as well as develop some basketball skills.

[DJlaysitup]

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...I really think next year could be his breakout year like Smoove.

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The danger is...what if his breakout year is when he is 24 or 25. Still young, but by drafting him at 19 we really have to wait a long time.

[Dejay]

That's my opinion on him. I would expect him to be at least on par with average NBA small forwards in terms of production. He simply isn't. To me, he's a 6'9" shooting guard who hangs around the perimeter waiting on an open jumper more times than not. That will get you a 16/6 type of career if he continues to improve his shot (which may be pretty but not that effective if he's only hitting 42% from the field) but not much more. And with the 2nd pick of the draft being spent on him, that's simply NOT ENOUGH to justify him being here instead of (insert point guard here).

So the answer to that question is yes, I'd still be a little disappointed in terms of his production due to where he was picked and who was passed over, not in terms of his age.

[Guest Walter]

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Marvin wouldn't start on most NBA teams right now, so let's not even talk about "superstar" status. I was expecting Marvin to be at least an average NBA starting forward at this point. He is not. He will be, eventually, but "average" is not what the #2 pick is supposed to be.

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And that is why. He couldn't be much of a role player on a very good team. He gets an incredible amøunt of opportunity øn this team and puts up meager numbers in an unimpressive way. Just doesn't cut it IMO.

W

[bfwolf]

I supported the Marvin pick when it happened, but I'll admit I hadn't watched much UNC footage so I was really going on what the so-called experts said about him.

And what I distinctly remember them saying is that he had a picture-perfect looking jump shot and incredible athleticism. The picture-perfect looking jump shot is true, and I believe that in time Marvin can become a good marksman in the NBA. But what I think I was sold on that's NOT true is the incredible athleticism. For an NBA small forward, Marvin has good athleticism. I'd put him in the 70th to 75th percentile. But he's by no means a freak like Josh Smith is. And I feel like the experts were talking about him like he's a freak. And without that kind of freakish athleticism, his upside is a lot more limited than I believed when we drafted him and made him very unworthy of the #2 pick given his limited collegiate accomplishments.

[BusBoyIsBack]

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That's my opinion on him. I would expect him to be at least on par with average NBA small forwards in terms of production. He simply isn't.

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If the average SF was 20 years old in their first year as a starter you'd have a point.

[Dejay]

And if the average draft position of a small forward was 2nd, you'd have one also.

[Traceman]

etc. EVERYONE'S numbers on this team are likely inflated somewhat when compared to what their numbers would likely be on a good team. Why should Marvin's numbers be looked at any differently than anyone else's?

Last year, Josh and Josh put up really good numbers toward the end of the season just as Josh, Marvin and Shelden did this year. They all put up bigger numbers based on more opportunities. Bottom line is that Marvin's numbers MAY be inflated, but no more so than they are for other young players in similar situations - including players on this team.

[Diesel]

Your problem is this:

You can't draft a guy 2nd overall and then hide behind his age as the reason for lack of production. That doesn't fly. People love to call up KG or Kobe at this time.. however, KG and Kobe didn't have the minutes nor the opportunity that Marvin has had. Given the minutes and the opportunity, they would have done much better than we see from Marvin. If you want to bring up Age, why not mention Amare, Lebron, Mello? Do these guys not fit your argument. In the grand scheme of things, with the development that Marvin has, I would say that PT and opportunity trumps Age.

[chillzatl]

Nobody is hiding behind his age and his production is just fine for a 20 year old guy on his 2nd partial year in the league. The only problem, and this is only a problem for some, is when you lump in your expectations for a 2nd overall pick and refuse to acknowledge the role his age and lack of overall experience plays in it all. Many want and expect him to be a Carmello or Lebron simply because of where he was drafted, but those are rare items. Most 19 year old players that come into the NBA take a few years to develop and where they are picked doesn't change that.

Also, minutes do not equal opportunity. You throw them out there as if they are one in the same. Marvin gets minutes, but how many plays were being run for him specifically before JJ went down? It's no different for Marvin than it is and was for Josh Smith. Josh has been getting minutes since day one, but why is he suddenly looking like a much better player? opportunity. Many of us have expected a lot from Josh since day one and haven't really gotten it with any consistency until the last month or so. Is he allowed the logical development time that most 19 year olds require simply because drafted later than Marvin? If so then that's the most illogical thought progression of all time.

We're coming off THE era of highly drafted, very young players who were expected to need time to develop. We're really only a year removed from that era. Yet some here treat Marvin as if he's the first young player to be taken in the top 5 and not be a consistent, above average player out of the gate.

So as much as you claim others give him a pass because of his age, you are just as guilty of condemning the kid because of where he was drafted without considering the other factors. It's sad that nearly two years after he was drafted we're still having the EXACT same discussions about him.

[Diesel]

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Nobody is hiding behind his age and his production is just fine

for a 20 year old guy

on his

2nd partial year

in the league.

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Two quick notes. Production = Just fine for a 20 year old guy... Is hiding behind his age. Production and Age are totally unrelated issues when you are a pro. If him being 19 was such a big deal when we drafted him, then maybe we shouldn't have drafted him.

Show me another case in basketball where AGE was more of a factor than playing time.

Even Monte Ellis has found his niche at a much harder position.

There are guys who came directly out of HS, who didn't get that one year of experience in college and certainly wasn't drafted as high as Marvin that are performing better. And Age doesn't matter.

#2. "2nd Partial year". What's this?? Is this the excuse machine's newest invention. NOW Marvin only plays 64 out of 82 games and it's a "partial season". Let's do this OLD SCHOOL...

Marvin played 2179 minutes this year.

That's 140 more minutes than Chillz

That's 180 less minutes than JJ (who everybody says played too much).

That's over 800 more minutes than Shelden who played in 80 games this year.

in the league:

That's only 300 less than JOneal who played in 7 more games than Marvin.

That's 300 more than Grant Hill who played in the same number of games as Marvin EXACTLY...

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Also, minutes do not equal opportunity. You throw them out there as if they are one in the same.

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You're kinda right here. Minutes doesn't really equal opportunity.. however, on a team with no definite second scorer, Marvin doesn't step up and make himself available. He lacks the aggression needed to do that. He's just a glorified Jump Shooter, soaking up good minutes that somebody else could be using and being productive. If you're in the game for 41 minutes and come back with just 4 points and 2 rebounds, you're wasting time on the floor. Crying and complaining about no plays run for me is a waste.

[chillzatl]

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Two quick notes. Production = Just fine for a 20 year old guy... Is hiding behind his age. Production and Age are totally unrelated issues when you are a pro.

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That's an absurd thing to say! Age is always a qualifier when talking about a young player in ANY pro sport. The NBA is NO different. You have the rare players who excel beyond the natural and undeniable limitations of youth, but they are rare indeed.

I have 100% confidence that I could supply you with an infinite number of quotes from columnists and insiders where the production of young player (in every sport imaginable) is discussed and age is always a factor in it. It will always be that way.

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#2. "2nd Partial year". What's this?? Is this the excuse machine's newest invention. NOW Marvin only plays 64 out of 82 games and it's a "partial season". Let's do this OLD SCHOOL...

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Missing 25% of the season qualifies as partial. It had an obvious impact on his production and not acknowledging it is dishonest. You were even on his side before the season started. Need I pull up any of your positive, forward looking comments from then to remind you? When young players are adjusting to and learning the pro game (in any sport) missing significant time due to injury typically sets them back.

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Crying and complaining about no plays run for me is a waste.

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I've you're going to dog a players production and be honest about it, you have to consider all the factors. Role is a definite factor. You may choose to write him off and crack jokes about his lack of aggression, but I see no less of it from him than I saw from Josh Smith in his second year. He's learning the pro game and finding his spot within the team. Few young players walk into a team and say "GIVE ME THE DAMNED BALL, NOW". Besides, I've seen Marvin have some great games this year where he was plenty aggressive.

[exodus]

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on a team with no definite second scorer,

Childress

doesn't step up and make himself available. He lacks the aggression needed to do that.

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Your comments could just as easily be about Childress yet somehow he gets a pass from you even though he is older more experienced.

[Joker]

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give us 13/6 and improve his scoring average from 8 to 13 would you be disappointed if you knew this information before hand and we picked him over Paul? I think that In Hindsight if I knew this I would have pick him over those guys because he was only 19 years old if we didn't all ready have all those forwards.

However, I'm dissappointed in his season because i thought from actually seeing him perform in summer league that he could get 20 points a game easy but he was unable to because Woody turned him into a jump shooter instead of utilizing him on the post more. If he adds a jump hook to his post game and a turn around jumper he would be devestating because that move that he has when he turn and face the basket with a jab step and ball fake is pretty much unstoppable. he beats opponents with that same move at least once a game. We are hard on Marvin but in reality he is developing quite nicely.

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expected, I don't see him avg. more then 20 a game in his career. He will be a defevise type of player in my opinon

[BusBoyIsBack]

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Your problem is this:

You can't draft a guy 2nd overall and then hide behind his age as the reason for lack of production. That doesn't fly. People love to call up KG or Kobe at this time.. however, KG and Kobe didn't have the minutes nor the opportunity that Marvin has had. Given the minutes and the opportunity, they would have done much better than we see from Marvin. If you want to bring up Age, why not mention Amare, Lebron, Mello? Do these guys not fit your argument. In the grand scheme of things, with the development that Marvin has, I would say that PT and opportunity trumps Age.

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Opportunity?

This was his FIRST YEAR AS A STARTER.

And he didn't even start the season because of an injury.

This was his first year starting since he was a Senior in high school and people are saying what he will never amount to based off of that season.

Absolutely ridiculous no matter how you spin it.

How can you ignore that?

How can you ignore the increased productivity pretty much every month of his career?

[Guest Walter]

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etc. EVERYONE'S numbers on this team are likely inflated somewhat when compared to what their numbers would likely be on a good team. Why should Marvin's numbers be looked at any differently than anyone else's?

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1) You got me. I don't think we are as talented as our "numbers" indicate.

2) MW's numbers when you look at his overall game are not an improvement over last year PER. He has gotten more opportunity than anyone playing at his level should. It's a mid range jump shooter's 43% and 13 per and that's all he is right now. He's just not that good Trace.

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Last year, Josh and Josh put up really good numbers toward the end of the season just as Josh, Marvin and Shelden did this year.

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Last year AND the year before JS numbers were FAR better than MW's overall.

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Bottom line is that Marvin's numbers MAY be inflated, but no more so than they are for other young players in similar situations - including players on this team.

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You're preaching to the choir here. I'll take JS's inflated numbers over MW's, there is room to spare and still have high optimism if not high hopes there. Not with SW and MW. Whatever they are, they still are bad picks.

...and I still dont' understanding your willingness to keep BK if and only IF he somehow unintentionally trips over a top 3 pick.

W