Fixing the "Marvin problem"...

[DJlaysitup]

I personally do not think Marvin will ever be much more than a jump shooting player who gets rebounds when they come to him.

OK - Brand me a "hater".

I'd love to see all of our players excel, but I worry bigtime about MW. And the bigger problem is, the 3-spot usually needs to be taken up by a multi-talented player who can shoot and slash to the rim and make pull up jumpers. I simply don't see this happening against quality competition so far.

The small forward position is mega-important in this league. I don't see us moving up much without real quality there...especially with borderline 1's and 5's.

Truly, IMHO...this team has a 2 and a 4 and that's about it. When we say we need a 1 and a 5 MOST, I would also pitch in that we need a real 3 that can make things happen offensively and not just shoot jumpers.

[AtLaS]

I agree with most of that.. At this point Marvin is essentially a jumpshooter, and I bash him as much as anyone.

I think Marvin needs to build his game similar to Carmelo. Carmelo is essentially a jumpshooter, but he also has a great post up game, but he's WAY WAY stronger than Marvin. Marvin needs to beef up and learn some post moves.. I'm not saying he'll ever be Carmelo good, but that's what he needs to build his game after..

[vext]

I agree with you both on this one. However, Marvin could be really potent as just a jump shooter in the right system. Now, I am not saying that we will have an offensive system as long as Woodson is the coach (as that is not his "thing"), but can you imagine if we had a Memphis (NCAA) type offense where drive the ball repeatedley and kicking it out to someone until there was an open shot? JJ and Marvin could hit open shots all day. Now you have 4 of our players attacking the lane and either pulling up for a shot, dishing it to someone, or kicking it out. That could be nasty. Could be. Oh well, we will see. I hope Marvin improves beyond being just a jump shooter, but hell, I would take whatever I can get with him nowadays. If it goes in, jumpshoot your heart out.

[chillzatl]

The level at which some of you bash Marvin yet give passes to other players is laughable. Last season everyone was so quick to say "josh smith is this" or "josh smith will be that", yet Josh came out this season and pretty much proved many of his naysayers wrong. No, he didn't get better handles or a better first step off the dribble, but he started doing a lot of the things he hadn't done in his first two years in the league. Why doesn't Marvin get the same benefit of the doubt? Is it because he's a #2 overall pick? If so, that's a poor excuse.

You say he's a jump shooter, but he's probably the 2nd or 3rd best player on this team at getting into the paint and drawing fouls. Compare this to his rookie year, where he could get in there, but didn't get the fouls because he went up like a floppy ****. While he still needs to get stronger, he was putting it up stronger this year and that resulted in him getting a lot more calls down there. Calls he wouldn't have gotten last year.

How does that go unrecognized when calling him nothing more than a jump shooter? To take that a step further, why can't he be given some type of benefit of the doubt that he will continue to improve that ability to the benefit of his team? Josh managed to improve some of his shortcomings, why can't Marvin?

[coachx]

I'm not a Marvin basher either in fact I find myself defending him alot since he is only 20 but......... Brewer would be significant upgrade.

I would love to get Brewer in here. He is an NBA SF all the way. He can do everything, not just a jump shooter. He could actually play SG or PG defensively.

Brewer shut down Affolo of UCLA in the Final 4 and gave the lightning qick Conley fits in the 2nd half of the Championship game. He put full court pressure on Conley and drove him craze much like Pippen was able to in the finals to a slowing mid thirties Stockton.

Brewer has a 1st step quicker then anyone on the current Hawks roster and a sick spin move and cross over. His outsie shot is plenty good enough to keep people honest. He is such a weapon in all aspects of the game.

I believe Brewer will have the 3rd best carrer of anyone in the draft. Brewer is truely special.(Wright of UNC has not proven enough)

The problem is the team need a PG and center more since Marvin and Chills can effectively man the SF position. I think Brewer is best at SF but would more effective then Chills at SG b/c he is an atheletic freak like Smoove. Chills is slow, his reach lets him get away with it.

[TexasPete]

Marvin can't improve because he is already 20 years old. Most wise men on this board know that 20 year olds are already set in their games. Add a post up game? Nah, too late for Marvin. Get stronger? You must be kidding because 20 year olds don't get stronger. Marvin will be the same player at 25 that he is today because at 20 you are done. He needed to be at 20ppg at 20 to ensure a great future.

I will say that Childress must really suck because pitful MW basically matched him and is 3 years younger. Chill really sucks.

[frosgrim]

These sorts of X is a problem because of Y problems are endemic on a poor team. We get to see Marvin play every game, but not the other guys he's compared to. When you get to see a guy play every game his "short comings" come to the forefront, esp. for a 20 year old who faced adversity for the first time in his life.

Second, we don't have an offensive philosophy that benefits any player on the team, except maybe JJ, but I would say that is even debatable. A reasonable offense that gets players, not just Marvin and JJ shots in context would do wonders for the whole team. Instead we have the pound the ball and look for 911 shots.

Third, a good point guard would help Marvin tremendously. A good point that drives the lane and can dish to Marvin on the wing would be awesome.

Fourth, a center that can actually post up players and demand a double team also helps Marvin and Smith. A guy that can post can pass out of the double to a cutting athlete like Marvin and Smith.

These considerations never seem to be included in the discussions of how "bad" Marvin is. Lets all face it, this team is seriously fouled up beyond recognition. Leadership is absent. Playmakers are absent. There is no post presence. Coaching is a joke. Any group of players we put into such a situation will look bad, esp a 20 year old who is now just realizing that basketball is hard instead of easy. So I completely agree with Chillzatl, lets give MW one more year and see what he can do before we condemn him to bust-ville.

[Diesel]

Josh Smith has always shown a little bit of something. He plays defense and he has fire.

Marvin does one thing. Jumpshot. He hasn't shown much fire. He is like a young Tim Thomas... Sure he has potential, but does he have the needed desire?? Many here can look and see that he doesn't. Watch a game or two chillz. When Marvin is the only guy on the floor, he will play and put up points... But if Smoove or JJ is out there, Marvin defers.. He doesn't really want to be the guy.

That's what we see in Smoove. Smoove wants to be the guy all the time. Salim wants to be the guy all the time. MW (Just like the rest of his life) wants to be the good team player. You don't draft good team players 2nd over all. 2nd over all is usually "the guy"!!!

[Swatguy]

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Marvin can't improve because he is already 20 years old. Most wise men on this board know that 20 year olds are already set in their games. Add a post up game? Nah, too late for Marvin. Get stronger? You must be kidding because 20 year olds don't get stronger. Marvin will be the same player at 25 that he is today because at 20 you are done. He needed to be at 20ppg at 20 to ensure a great future.

I will say that Childress must really suck because pitful MW basically matched him and is 3 years younger. Chill really sucks.

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It is difficult to take your post seriously. Surely you jest. Is Joe Johnson the same at 25 as he was at 20? I think not. I'm not to defend foolishness. A wise man once said "Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit."

[Swatguy]

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Josh Smith has always shown a little bit of something. He plays defense and he has fire.

Marvin does one thing. Jumpshot. He hasn't shown much fire. He is like a young Tim Thomas... Sure he has potential, but does he have the needed desire?? Many here can look and see that he doesn't. Watch a game or two chillz. When Marvin is the only guy on the floor, he will play and put up points... But if Smoove or JJ is out there, Marvin defers.. He doesn't really want to be the guy.

That's what we see in Smoove. Smoove wants to be the guy all the time. Salim wants to be the guy all the time. MW (Just like the rest of his life) wants to be the good team player. You don't draft good team players 2nd over all. 2nd over all is usually "the guy"!!!

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I agree but gosh the 20 year old has a chance to get better. I remember when Vince Carter played much the same way. VC would pass with 4 seconds left than shoot. Vince wants the ball now. On the record, I would market(trade) him now than later.

[AHF]

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Marvin can't improve because he is already 20 years old. Most wise men on this board know that 20 year olds are already set in their games. Add a post up game? Nah, too late for Marvin. Get stronger? You must be kidding because 20 year olds don't get stronger. Marvin will be the same player at 25 that he is today because at 20 you are done. He needed to be at 20ppg at 20 to ensure a great future.

I will say that Childress must really suck because pitful MW basically matched him and is 3 years younger. Chill really sucks.

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It is difficult to take your post seriously. Surely you jest. Is Joe Johnson the same at 25 as he was at 20? I think not. I'm not to defend foolishness. A wise man once said "Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit."

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A wiser man once said, "read the post again and therein you will find much sarcasm."

[Diesel]

When Lebron was 17, could you see that he would be something greater?

When Jordan was 19, could you see that he would be something greater?

You say VC was the same way, I disagree. I remember watching the then called "Seargent Carter" play at UNC. The desire he showed vs. what Marvin has showed is like night and day.

I guess we can describe it as type A personality. Marvin doesn't seem to have it. He would rather just let things happen instead of make things happen. IN Smoove, since we got him and he was declared possibly the biggest bust in the draft, Smoove has showed (in his play) the desire. Marvin hasn't shown that... Not in his play. Words are one thing, many of these players have been coached on what to say because their agents have to get paid... but when Marvin comes to an interview and say "I'm only 20." I lose more hope. No superstar would dare make excuses for himself.

[Swatguy]

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When Lebron was 17, could you see that he would be something greater?

When Jordan was 19, could you see that he would be something greater?

You say VC was the same way, I disagree. I remember watching the then called "Seargent Carter" play at UNC. The desire he showed vs. what Marvin has showed is like night and day.

I guess we can describe it as type A personality. Marvin doesn't seem to have it. He would rather just let things happen instead of make things happen. IN Smoove, since we got him and he was declared possibly the biggest bust in the draft, Smoove has showed (in his play) the desire. Marvin hasn't shown that... Not in his play. Words are one thing, many of these players have been coached on what to say because their agents have to get paid... but when Marvin comes to an interview and say "I'm only 20." I lose more hope. No superstar would dare make excuses for himself.

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I do understand. He needs to spend a couple weeks at Run-n-Shoot. I see what you see and would like to package him home for Chris Wilcox. I'd do it straight up.

[Swatguy]

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A wiser man once said, "read the post again and therein you will find much sarcasm."

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I read it three/four times. I hope you are right. There are like post on this board and you can't always tell if the poster is serious or joking, unless you tell it.

[AHF]

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A wiser man once said, "read the post again and therein you will find much sarcasm."

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I read it three/four times. I hope you are right. There are like post on this board and you can't always tell if the poster is serious or joking, unless you tell it.

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That is true, but TP has always posted about it being too early to close the book on Marvin so this was pretty obviously sarcasm to me. Plus it was written in a way to convince the reader to reject the premise on its face. If you were actually trying to persuade someone that Marvin wouldn't improve you wouldn't do it like that, IMO.

[thesheedera]

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You say VC was the same way, I disagree. I remember watching the then called "Seargent Carter" play at UNC. The desire he showed vs. what Marvin has showed is like night and day.

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FYI, Vince was benched as a frosh for being lazy and not playing D.

[AHF]

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You say VC was the same way, I disagree. I remember watching the then called "Seargent Carter" play at UNC. The desire he showed vs. what Marvin has showed is like night and day.

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FYI, Vince was benched as a frosh for being lazy and not playing D.

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Frankly, Vince's attitude in college was why I was not high on him coming into the league. He definitely surpassed my expectations.

[thesheedera]

Mine too - big time. I've never seen a player go from where he was as a collge player to where he was as a young pro player. Maybe Arenas?

I love Vince, but he wasn't the ideal college player.

[TheDude]

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Josh Smith has always shown a little bit of something. He plays defense and he has fire.

Marvin does one thing. Jumpshot. He hasn't shown much fire. He is like a young Tim Thomas... Sure he has potential, but does he have the needed desire?? Many here can look and see that he doesn't. Watch a game or two chillz. When Marvin is the only guy on the floor, he will play and put up points... But if Smoove or JJ is out there, Marvin defers.. He doesn't really want to be the guy.

That's what we see in Smoove. Smoove wants to be the guy all the time. Salim wants to be the guy all the time. MW (Just like the rest of his life) wants to be the good team player. You don't draft good team players 2nd over all. 2nd over all is usually "the guy"!!!

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speaking of Tim's that have a lack of socalled desire or fire- Tim Duncan...and he looks pretty good...

Marvin hasnt wanted to be the guy because he recognized one important fact- that he's not THE GUY, Joe Johnson is. Sure, there are times where i want him to be more aggressive but the kid is 20. He can't even drink yet or rent a car good lord.

He STARTED with being a jump shooter but he has definitely improved in other areas and it can be seen in his effort. I don't know how to find the stats but i would bet that if you looked at the last couple of seasons you would see his rebounding and points of non-jumpers improve.

[Diesel]

I love it when people try to equate Desire and Demeanor.

That's not what it's about.

Notice I said on-court desire.

How many times do you see Tim Duncan in the heat of battle disappear and defer to the other guys to carry him?? Even when Duncan allows other guys to step up, Duncan is still clutch when you need him. A couple of years ago, people were talking about Manu this and Tony P. that.. however, when the game was on the line, who was it that stepped up and pulled down 14 boards and had about 23 points automatic... I don't care how quietly a player scores it's still worth 2. There have always been nice guys who could dominate the game. Wilt Chamberlain was a nice guy. However, demeanor and desire are two different things. Marvin hasn't shown the desire to be better (on the court)... Not to be "the guy"..