Fixing the "Marvin problem"...

[mrhonline]

Are we comparing Marvin Williams to Tim Duncan, Carmelo Anthony, Michael Jordan, Lebron James, and Vince Carter?

That's setting a pretty high standard, eh?

He's 20. He's 20. He's 20.

^^^Said the same thing about Smith last year.

^^^Said the same thing about Smith last year.

^^^Said the same thing about Smith last year.

[WraithSentinel]

It amazes me that no one never seem to compare these two players. They are very similar players.

[frosgrim]

You're right. These same sort of things were said of JJ in Boston (I had forgotten that). Beantowners are easily the biggest chicken littles in the sports world, so I tended to only listen to Boston sports radio for short bursts, while I lived in Connecticut.

JJ was seen as too timid, and didn't understand his talent, while he was with the Cs. Boston traded him for nothing, really. Horrible mistake on their part.

Marvin has a similar approach. I also wonder how much of Marvin's on court play has to do with Woodson? Woody works for J Smoove because of Josh's personality. I have to wonder if Woody is the right guy for Marvin, Sheldon, and Z? I do know that the offense is not suited for Marvin.

[AtLaS]

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It amazes me that no one never seem to compare these two players. They are very similar players.

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No they aren't. JJ has always been a very good ball handler, he even played some PG in college. Consequently, JJ has also always been a great passer, and always been able to get his shot. Marvin hasn't shown the ability to do any of these..

[frosgrim]

You never saw JJ in Boston. He was timid and wouldn't get his own shot. He deferred to Walker and Pierce. His passing was suspect. In all, he did have many of the problems that peopel are attributing to Marvin. The difference is that Joe came out as a three year college player instead of a single year player. Marvin does create his own shot, just not often enough for folks on this board.

I do wonder what the board would be saying about a young 'Nique, when all hid did was dunk his first few seasons...

[CBAreject]

Nique was eye-popping pretty much from the start. He had to develop a jump shot which actually became very good.

The jump shot is something that can be learned, as evidenced by Nique and Jordan. The ability to get to the basket for high percentage shots is almost innate, and it requires athletic ability that not many freakishly tall people have. We saw Marv do it in the summer league and in spurts during the season. That's what he must do to be a star. There are lots of guys who can shoot 42% on mid-range jumpers. Not that many can get to the hoop and get fouled.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

. . but that also means that he's 40% wrong.

He's dead on when talking about Marvin's demeanor and desire. I don't think he desires to be "the man" or a "great player" at this time either. Whenever I tape a game, I always go back and watch it at least twice, with the 2nd viewing focusing on certain players.

I've seen Marvin pass off good shots too many times in the 4th quarter, deferring to either Lue or JJ. Having said that, those are the only two that he usually defers to.

Diesel is wrong in the fact that he keeps comparing Marvin to potential Hall of Fame players. Just because you're the #2 pick in a draft, doesn't mean that you're going to be the best player in that generation or in that decade. And it doesn't mean that you're the 2nd best player in the draft AT THAT TIME.

Guys like Vince, LeBron, and Melo had "star" written all over them from the jump. Because Marvin doesn't have that written all over him right now, doesn't mean that the kid won't continue to develop into a very good player in this league.

And you have to understand this . . most #2 picks don't come into a situation in which you already have a bonafide star player, and an experienced player playing in front of you ( talking about JJ and Harrington ). Most #2 picks get a chance to start right away and have an immeadiate impact on a team, because there is a desperate need for his position. That's not the situation Marvin stepped in with Atlanta.

It's like blaming Darko for being a bust, when Dumars probably had no business taking him at #2 in the first place. They already had too many people playing in front of him, for him to make a huge impact from the jump. Darko is now proving that he at least has some game, and will probably continue to get better as the years go along.

If Dumars would've taken Carmelo at #2, he may be progressing at the same rate as Marvin right now, because there's no guarantee that Melo would be starting over Tayshawn Prince in Detroit. And because of that, he could very well be a 6th man type talent in the NBA, instead of a superstar talent. Instead of 29 ppg, Melo could very well be a 16 ppg scorer in Detroit's system . . . coming off the bench and winning back-to-back 6th man awards . . with Detroit possibly having an extra NBA championship to go along with it.

It's also the same situation that Jermaine O'Neal found himself in while in Portland. He was talented, but who was he going to sit on the bench? That Portland team was full of experienced and talented players. He couldn't even get off the bench in Portland, but has made the All-Star team 6 of the 7 years he's been in Indiana.

The fact is that when you're a high pick, you pretty much need to be thrown into the fire right away, in order to see if you can make an immeadiate impact. The Hawks chose to take it slow with Marvin in Year 1, because they had plenty of talent at his position. So Year 2 ( this year ) is essentially his first impact year in which he got enough minutes to become a core member of this team. All that has to be taken into consideration, when talking about Marvin.

The following players were pretty much in the same boat as Marvin, with better players in front of them their rookie year. Here's what they've done in that 1st year they played over 2000 minutes total in a season:

Dirk in year 2: 17.5 ppg . . 6.5 rebs . . 46% FG

T-Mac in year 3 ( when he finally got to play significant minutes: 15.4 ppg . . 6.6 rebs . . 45% FG

Kobe in year 2: 15.1 ppg . . 3.1 rebs . . 2.5 asst . . 42% FG

Marvin in year 2: 13.1 ppg . . 5.3 rebs . . 43% FG

So instead of being on a superstar level, he's on track to be a very good player. Hey, that's just fine with me, if JJ and Smoove will be the superstars. Every team needs that 3rd guy to step up and be big time when needed. If Marvin is that guy, the Hawks will be just fine.

Would anybody be upset if Marvin's ceiling, was a Glen Rice type of player? He was basically only a jumpshooter who didn't rebound the ball well either. If Marvin turns into the 21st century version of Glen Rice, would his detractors really be that mad?

By the way, here were Rice's numbers in his rookie year in Miami, when he played over 2300 minutes that year:

13.6 ppg

4.6 rebs

1.8 asst

44% FG

25% 3FG ( surprised at that number? )

Those totals are eerily similar to Marvin's numbers this year, in almost EVERY category.

[SmooveTheFuture]

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. . but that also means that he's 40% wrong.

He's dead on when talking about Marvin's demeanor and desire. I don't think he desires to be "the man" or a "great player" at this time either. Whenever I tape a game, I always go back and watch it at least twice, with the 2nd viewing focusing on certain players.

I've seen Marvin pass off good shots too many times in the 4th quarter, deferring to either Lue or JJ. Having said that, those are the only two that he usually defers to.

Diesel is wrong in the fact that he keeps comparing Marvin to potential Hall of Fame players. Just because you're the #2 pick in a draft, doesn't mean that you're going to be the best player in that generation or in that decade. And it doesn't mean that you're the 2nd best player in the draft AT THAT TIME.

Guys like Vince, LeBron, and Melo had "star" written all over them from the jump. Because Marvin doesn't have that written all over him right now, doesn't mean that the kid won't continue to develop into a very good player in this league.

And you have to understand this . . most #2 picks don't come into a situation in which you already have a bonafide star player, and an experienced player playing in front of you ( talking about JJ and Harrington ). Most #2 picks get a chance to start right away and have an immeadiate impact on a team, because there is a desperate need for his position. That's not the situation Marvin stepped in with Atlanta.

It's like blaming Darko for being a bust, when Dumars probably had no business taking him at #2 in the first place. They already had too many people playing in front of him, for him to make a huge impact from the jump. Darko is now proving that he at least has some game, and will probably continue to get better as the years go along.

If Dumars would've taken Carmelo at #2, he may be progressing at the same rate as Marvin right now, because there's no guarantee that Melo would be starting over Tayshawn Prince in Detroit. And because of that, he could very well be a 6th man type talent in the NBA, instead of a superstar talent. Instead of 29 ppg, Melo could very well be a 16 ppg scorer in Detroit's system . . . coming off the bench and winning back-to-back 6th man awards . . with Detroit possibly having an extra NBA championship to go along with it.

It's also the same situation that Jermaine O'Neal found himself in while in Portland. He was talented, but who was he going to sit on the bench? That Portland team was full of experienced and talented players. He couldn't even get off the bench in Portland, but has made the All-Star team 6 of the 7 years he's been in Indiana.

The fact is that when you're a high pick, you pretty much need to be thrown into the fire right away, in order to see if you can make an immeadiate impact. The Hawks chose to take it slow with Marvin in Year 1, because they had plenty of talent at his position. So Year 2 ( this year ) is essentially his first impact year in which he got enough minutes to become a core member of this team. All that has to be taken into consideration, when talking about Marvin.

The following players were pretty much in the same boat as Marvin, with better players in front of them their rookie year. Here's what they've done in that 1st year they played over 2000 minutes total in a season:

Dirk in year 2:

17.5 ppg . . 6.5 rebs . . 46% FG

T-Mac in year 3 ( when he finally got to play significant minutes:

15.4 ppg . . 6.6 rebs . . 45% FG

Kobe in year 2:

15.1 ppg . . 3.1 rebs . . 2.5 asst . . 42% FG

Marvin in year 2:

13.1 ppg . . 5.3 rebs . . 43% FG

So instead of being on a superstar level, he's on track to be a very good player. Hey, that's just fine with me, if JJ and Smoove will be the superstars. Every team needs that 3rd guy to step up and be big time when needed. If Marvin is that guy, the Hawks will be just fine.

Would anybody be upset if Marvin's ceiling, was a Glen Rice type of player? He was basically only a jumpshooter who didn't rebound the ball well either. If Marvin turns into the 21st century version of Glen Rice, would his detractors really be that mad?

By the way, here were Rice's numbers in his rookie year in Miami, when he played over 2300 minutes that year:

13.6 ppg

4.6 rebs

1.8 asst

44% FG

25% 3FG ( surprised at that number? )

Those totals are eerily similar to Marvin's numbers this year, in almost EVERY category.

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Dont compare Marvin to any of the above guys its a load of crap he will never in a million be as good as any of those guys. Its wishful thinking but he does not have the drive, talent or heart that those guys do. Just because he had similar numbers to those guys in the BEGINNING of there careers doesnt mean jack. Why not compare the busts and has beens that have come through the NBA..Glen Rice was a deadly shooter if a defender got on him he would still be unstopable impossible to stop. I do not think if Marvin had a great defender guarding him he would be making alot of these shots. A guy like Martell Webster reminds me more of Glen Rice. I would compare at this point Marvin to Tim thomas.

[WraithSentinel]

Actually JJ came out after 1 year of college. Just another similarity between the two. It took JJ until his 3rd year to emerge. Marvin is setting himself up to emerge in his 3rd year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?statsId=3520

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?statsId=3928

Marvin improved his scoring by 5 ppg. I would think people(especially Hawks fans) would be encourage with that. Sure his fg% is not as good as we would like. He is improving and show signs of growing.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Well, that's obvious coming from you . . or anybody with "Smoove" in their username. You guys have ALWAYS tried to dog Marvin on every turn, hoping that he doesn't become a better player than Josh.

Marvin is already better than Tim Thomas in his 2nd year, so that comparison pretty much goes out the window. Now, Marvin's mannerisms may resemble Tim Thomas, but he has much more athletic ability and talent than Tim ever had.

It's more wishful thinking to think that Marvin won't progress more than what he is right now. I don't see "superstar" in Marvin's future. But I do think that he could easily be on the level of a Glen Rice, or slightly below that.

[Guest Walter]

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These considerations never seem to be included in the discussions of how "bad" Marvin is. Lets all face it, this team is seriously fouled up beyond recognition. Leadership is absent. Playmakers are absent. There is no post presence. Coaching is a joke. Any group of players we put into such a situation will look bad, esp a 20 year old who is now just realizing that basketball is hard instead of easy. So I completely agree with Chillzatl, lets give MW one more year and see what he can do before we condemn him to bust-ville.

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If Marvin approaches bust-ville without the current excuses (age, poor Pg play...although he should be able to get his own shot, coaching...wait, we're not fixing that one) we can't expect to get anything for him.

I'm not saying we MUST trade him but we had better consider it and if a good deal for us comes along take it.

W

[kelston827]

Walter, you are such a joke.

Over and over you reference the fact that Marvin being a #2 pick means we should all have these over the top expectations.

Yet at the same time, expectations based on age are nothing more than "excuses."

Explain to me again why this makes sense. Oh yeah, it doesn't.

[TexasPete]

Why not trade Childress Walter? He is 3 years younger with similar stats. I know that doesn't run with your anti-MW agenda and you have a strong bias, but a 20 year old who goes for 13.1 and 5.4 is not a bust.

Don't let yourself go into the Diesel area because that just gets moronic.

[Guest Walter]

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Walter, you are such a joke.

Over and over you reference the fact that Marvin being a #2 pick means we should all have these over the top expectations.

Yet at the same time, expectations based on age are nothing more than "excuses."

Explain to me again why this makes sense. Oh yeah, it doesn't.

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MW should be considerably better than Paul AND Deron to justify his selection over them given they play a more important, harder to fill, and needed position.

How are these expectations "over the top"? Does that make sense enough to you or should I slow it down for you?

W

[Guest Walter]

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Why not trade Childress Walter? He is 3 years younger with similar stats. I know that doesn't run with your anti-MW agenda and you have a strong bias, but a 20 year old who goes for 13.1 and 5.4 is not a bust.

Don't let yourself go into the Diesel area because that just gets moronic.

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I simply don't think with his 3 foot fxs he has as much "value" as he did, and it's MW's mythic (but transient) "potential" that makes him more valuable as a trade commodity than Childress regardless of injury history.

I trade MW BECAUSE of his value, not in spite of it. Mind you, I question whether his "value" translates into anything much but a mid range jump shooter.

W

[kelston827]

No need to slow it down, because it's quite easy to tell when someone is dead wrong.

We're talking about Marvin and where he projects as a player. What Paul and Deron do is completely irrelevant when it comes to what type of player Marvin will become.

As TP said, I'll take 13 and 5 with noticeable improvement from a 20-year-old every time.

[Guest Walter]

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No need to slow it down, because it's quite easy to tell when someone is dead wrong.

We're talking about Marvin and where he projects as a player. What Paul and Deron do is completely irrelevant when it comes to what type of player Marvin will become.

As TP said, I'll take 13 and 5 with noticeable improvement from a 20-year-old every time.

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It was a near invisible 13/5 in 34 MPG.

Whta type of player Marvin will become will be less than what Paul and Deron would be for us. He is all but a one dimensional player. That's just fine when you're picking mid 1st.

Do I think MW isn't going to be at least a starter in this league? No. But doesn't project to be a many time All-star like Paul and Deron do. Considering what we needed in terms of positional and skill-set needs THAT DOES MATTER. So does our picking him 2nd. It matters because BK still has his job and people keep exusing his incompetence.

W

[TexasPete]

An invisible 13/5? Your sounding dangerously like somebody else on this site and that isn't a compliment.

So, you can "see" some guys 13's but you can't "see" Marvins? I'm hoping he puts up an invisible 20ppg at some point soon. Even if you can't see Marvin's points the scoreboard tends to catch every one of them.

Marvin tends to bring out some really looney comments and I have to say yours is right up there. Thanks for the laugh.

[TroyMcClure]

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An invisible 13/5? Your sounding dangerously like somebody else on this site and that isn't a compliment.

So, you can "see" some guys 13's but you can't "see" Marvins? I'm hoping he puts up an invisible 20ppg at some point soon. Even if you can't see Marvin's points the scoreboard tends to catch every one of them.

Marvin tends to bring out some really looney comments and I have to say yours is right up there. Thanks for the laugh.

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Tp, I think you are misplacing your anger. Walt can't "see" his numbers because they did not mean a thing. I know he's only 20. So what? He absolutely vanishes on the court sometimes.

If 200 people saw Marvin scores 20 in a loss, in a 50 loss season, did it really happen? Someone mentioned that Tony Kornheiser, on PTI, had forgotten that Marvin was in the NBA, when he was mentioned in an e-mail. You think anyone has forgotten Carmello Anthony?

With the state of the franchise and all, it is troubling to me that Marvin is not mentioned as a gym rat who eats and breathes basketball. That's because he's not. We need driven leaders to pull us out of this in a few years. I just don't think he is that guy. If you don't really want it, you don't really want it. It's pretty much that simple, to me.

[TexasPete]

You don't know a damn thing about Marvin Williams and his work ethic. The kid doesn't even go out on the road, instead watching tapes and getting ready. Marvin's 13/5 is no more or less visible than Childresses or Josh Smith's numbers. They all put up what they put up. This entire discussion is just stupid.

By the way, Marvin does disappear at times on the court. If he had been in the league 5 years and was 23 or 24 I would be concerned. The fact that a 20 year old disappears at times? Wow, big news. Troy, if you didn't see Marvin's progress the last 3rd of the year, averaged over 15ppg (very visible, his points counted the same), and showed a nice overall game. Sorry, you missed it.

BTW, a friend of mine who coached until this year at Iowa and is now at New Mexico watched a game with me toward the end of the year. He was blown away by Marvin's skill level and thought he would be superior to Smith in the next year or two when he lost a little of his tentativeness. That comes with age, this guy is Big 10 coach who scouts and coaches for a living. Marvin's crime is he isn't CP3 or Deron. Only an ignorant fool doesn't recognize his upside. Marvin's day is coming and I'm not going to forget every fool who pissed on the kid or traded him in every thread.