Fixing the "Marvin problem"...

[Hoosier]

I am curious to hear what your friend had to say about other Hawks' skill level/potential?

[TroyMcClure]

Slow down buddy. No need to get so hostile. Why are you so objectionable to the thought that he will just be a very good "piece" on a good team? Never a go to guy. Maybe not even a 2nd option. I'm sorry, but that is the way I feel. Maybe he will someday average something like 18,8 4 on a playoff team. By the way TP, numbers are invisible to me when they don't lead to wins. Look at Reef's career on paper. lol! It is a lot easier to put up numbers when you are losing. No one thinks you are a threat as a team. You are usually behind, getting garbage buckets and rebounds. Many times against 2nd team guys. Or 1st teamers that know the game is over. I just don't like Joe and Marvin together. I don't think our big three are going to work out. I don't like the dynamic they have together. It is just not translating into competent basketball night in and night out. I don't know that it ever will with Woody.

Marvin is our most tradeable player. Would you trade Joe or Smoove befor him? We need a 1 and a 5 desperately. Anything that could bring that, short of trading the two players I just mentioned, should be a welcome thought.

It's about the team, right? I don't know if we can wait for Marvin's potential to shine.

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BTW, a friend of mine who coached until this year at Iowa and is now at New Mexico watched a game with me toward the end of the year. He was blown away by Marvin's skill level and thought he would be superior to Smith in the next year or two when he lost a little of his tentativeness. That comes with age, this guy is Big 10 coach who scouts and coaches for a living. Marvin's crime is he isn't CP3 or Deron. Only an ignorant fool doesn't recognize his upside. Marvin's day is coming and I'm not going to forget every fool who pissed on the kid or traded him in every thread.

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Tp, I'm sure you're friend is a smart guy. I respectfully disagree with his assesment. Marvin will never be a Smoove. Smoove's ability to viciously dunk, run the break a little, hit big 3's, and possibly be the greatest shot blocker to ever play, kind of put him ahead of any "potential" that Marvin could achieve.

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Marvin's crime is he isn't CP3 or Deron. Only an ignorant fool doesn't recognize his upside.

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We recognize the upside, but he is a guilty man if this is the crime. It's not his fault he's a Hawk. I'm sure I would like him a lot if we had one of those other guys and I was watching him every now and again like your friend.

[TexasPete]

First, JJ and Chills were not playing. He thought Smoove was the best pure athlete and he thought Marvin was much more fundamental than Smoove, more basketball skill.

His comment was that Smith is better now because he was more aggressive mentally than Marvin but he loved Marvin's basketball skill and the way he played the game. In his opinion, when Marvin gets a more take charge attitude he will bust out because his skill level is so good. He thought that Marvin was holding himself back but he says a lot of young kids in both college and the NBA usually step up at some point. It happens when they figure out they don't need to sit back and take a back seat. It's a process for many, including Marvin. I asked him if he preferred Marvin or Smoove and he said Marvin. In fairness, he had never seen Smoove before and Smoove didn't have a great game.

I told him it was interesting to hear his views because Marvin was pretty hated by fans in general and he thought that was ridiculous when his age is factored into the equation. His opinion is just an opinion but he coached in the Big 10 for 5 years. It was a total outsider view.

[AtLaS]

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He was blown away by Marvin's skill level and thought he would be superior to Smith in the next year or two when he lost a little of his tentativeness.

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Exactly what was he blown away by? You might have been preaching a little too much Marvin and he didn't want get into a big disagreement with you..

[Hoosier]

Interesting, if his assessment turns out to be correct, then the Hawks have filled three of their starting positions with young potential All-Stars. Whether it is by design or luck, this team appears to have a very bright future.

[Guest Walter]

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You don't know a damn thing about Marvin Williams and his work ethic.

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Anybody that comes with their shirt untucked to a job interview is saying alot about his work ethic. MW was out of shape at the NBA tryout. If one can't work hard for the biggest interview of your life, don't expect that same individual to work hard day in and day out amidst the grind.

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The kid doesn't even go out on the road, instead watching tapes and getting ready.

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What tapes? Playstation? Never heard of this.

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Marvin's 13/5 is no more or less visible than Childresses or Josh Smith's numbers. They all put up what they put up.

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That's simply not the case and you know it. DerMarr Johnson averaged 8.4 PPG and 3.4 RPG in 24 MPG for us in his 2nd year! Prorate those stats to Marvin's 34 MPG and you get 12 PPG and 4.8 RPG! PER MINUTE MARVIN AND a 2nd year DERMARR JOHNSON ARE V-E-R-Y CLOSE! More importantly they are nearly invisible players on the court. Nobody could be as invisible as DerMarr, who disappeared behind the 3 pt line, but MW does dissappear and he disappears behind his adequate but not special mid-range shot.

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Marvin does disappear at times on the court. If he had been in the league 5 years and was 23 or 24 I would be concerned.

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You should be concerned now because the there is NOTHING about this tentativeness that is good and you never shake it entirely if you shake it at all. This IS who MW is. He is a tentative player. He's not as tentative as DerMarr, but there are some comparisons to be made here.

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BTW, a friend of mine who coached until this year at Iowa and is now at New Mexico watched a game with me toward the end of the year. He was blown away by Marvin's skill level and thought he would be superior to Smith in the next year or two when he lost a little of his tentativeness. That comes with age, this guy is Big 10 coach who scouts and coaches for a living. Marvin's crime is he isn't CP3 or Deron. Only an ignorant fool doesn't recognize his upside. Marvin's day is coming and I'm not going to forget every fool who pissed on the kid or traded him in every thread.

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I hope so. I hope MW's tentativeness is lost, but frankly it seems his nature not some trait to be tossed off. That's the difference between you and I. I simply believe it will always weigh him down significantly and I recognize that there are quite a few players that could have been great, DerMarr being one of them, that just wouldn't because they lack some major intangible that set them apart or allowed them to reach their ceiling.

W

[bonethugz]

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You don't know a damn thing about Marvin Williams and his work ethic. The kid doesn't even go out on the road, instead watching tapes and getting ready. Marvin's 13/5 is no more or less visible than Childresses or Josh Smith's numbers. They all put up what they put up. This entire discussion is just stupid.

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how did you know he has a good work ethic and all that? i'm not questioning(somewhat) but i'm asking where/how did you find that out? he isn't exactly lazy on count but he's exactly not the hardest worker out there.

by the way there are guys comparing the emotion with other players. i think eveytime there's an exception. here's one since you guys are using hall of famers, john stockton. he never shake his head when he lost but he also never get up(ok once) when he wins.

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BTW, a friend of mine who coached until this year at Iowa and is now at New Mexico watched a game with me toward the end of the year. He was blown away by Marvin's skill level and thought he would be superior to Smith in the next year or two when he lost a little of his tentativeness. That comes with age, this guy is Big 10 coach who scouts and coaches for a living. Marvin's crime is he isn't CP3 or Deron. Only an ignorant fool doesn't recognize his upside. Marvin's day is coming and I'm not going to forget every fool who pissed on the kid or traded him in every thread.

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i think we know some about his skill set. a good shot don't come with talent(all pure talent). the only thing i see is he maybe a little slow/not fast enough(this is kind of similar to carmelo to me) as a 3. how's your friend think about him on this?

[TexasPete]

Marvin is who he is at the ripe old age of 20? Walter, you don't know your A-hole from a hole in the ground and I love it. You and Diesel are kinda like two cartoon characters on this deal and I will say its good entertainment.

I heard his work ethic directly from Levenson. He said MW was already very professional and stayed in on the road away from distractions. He apparently watches a lot of tape and some guys rib him for not going out because almost all of them do. He said Marvin works hard at his craft.

His shirt tail out, huh? Oh, no. Please, not that! BTW, my conversations with the Big 10 coach were 99% not about anybody at all. I was watching the game with an old buddy. I also know Lawrence Frank through the same source although not nearly as well. I just asked him what he thought about a couple of players and he told me his opinion. And, although I respect his opinion, I don't view it as the last word by any means. But, MW is a well schooled 20-year old player with some good skill. He has a lot to learn. But the crap on this board against him is misguided. MW will have the last laugh although I suspect the geniuses against MW will say "It was a quiet 28 tonight though"...or, we lost so Marvin's point don't count. I love it that Smooves points count when we lost but MW's don't. Some of the stuff I read here is priceless, you can't make it up, right Walt?

Walt, maybe on your next job interview you should take out your shirt cause Marvin is making millions. I'd say it worked well for him, maybe you could learn something.

[Guest Walter]

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Marvin is who he is at the ripe old age of 20?

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60% nature, 40% nuture and the nuturing is maybe 80% done by the age of 5. Yes, MW pretty much is who he is at this stage scientifically speaking. I don't know what antecdotal evidence you have and certainly people do "change", but MW isn't changing his whole passive self and that is what this boils down to.

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Walter, you don't know your A-hole from a hole in the ground and I love it. You and Diesel are kinda like two cartoon characters on this deal and I will say its good entertainment.

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Interestingly, Diesel and I were both significantly more right than many here in our initial assessment of MW as a professional and compared to Paul and Deron. I was also right regarding Chill over Iggy and Deng and SW over Roy. I also saw as much of MW as any other prospect that year being that I live in UNC country. So, I have a large if not the largest base of MW as a prospect knowledge (never saw him live), I have a consistently accurate (lottery) draft record, and I specifically have ben increasingly proven right about where both MW and Paul/Deron stood as professionals relative to each other. I think that pretty much puts your rhetoric up your own A-hole.

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I heard his work ethic directly from Levenson. He said MW was already very professional and stayed in on the road away from distractions. He apparently watches a lot of tape and some guys rib him for not going out because almost all of them do. He said Marvin works hard at his craft.

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Good grief. Levenson also lauds Woody...to your ire! Why do you believe Levenson's positive spin trappings on one guy but not the next? Levenson takes an ounce of truth and makes an idiot of you. You're better than that in every other instance that Levenson has played "spin-man". Why do you fall for the "MW work ethic machine"? "Very profession" is just another term for "nice guy" (he doesn't do anything unprofessional like carry a gun on a plane). "Staying away from distractions" says NOTHING about how hard and smart he works when he's not being distracted. He might just stay in his hotel room and play playstation for all you know.

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MW is a well schooled 20-year old player with some good skill. He has a lot to learn. But the crap on this board against him is misguided. MW will have the last laugh although I suspect the geniuses against MW will say "It was a quiet 28 tonight though"...or, we lost so Marvin's point don't count. I love it that Smooves points count when we lost but MW's don't. Some of the stuff I read here is priceless, you can't make it up, right Walt?

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The end of the season when everyone is tanking is about as worthless as summerleague but my issue with MW is HOW he scores his points and gets his boards. DerMarr Johnson was statistically, per minute MW equal in his 2nd year as well. However, NOBODY liked what they saw from DerMarr because of the WAY he scored (waiting behind the 3 point line). MW can't be that bad but he is all mid-range jumper (in part because he doesn't have DJ's range...I wonder where MW would be standing if he did have it).

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Walt, maybe on your next job interview you should take out your shirt cause Marvin is making millions. I'd say it worked well for him, maybe you could learn something.

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It didn't work well for us. That's my concern. Don't put MW over what is best for the Hawks.

W

[DJlaysitup]

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...But the crap on this board against him is misguided. MW will have the last laugh although I suspect the geniuses against MW will say "It was a quiet 28 tonight though"...or, we lost so Marvin's point don't count. I love it that Smooves points count when we lost but MW's don't. Some of the stuff I read here is priceless, you can't make it up,...

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Here's the truth of the matter TP...Smoove is a game changer, simple as that. When there is a medium to long rebound - he skies and gets it. No questions asked. Opponents don't even jump against him because they know the outcome.

He blocks shots...with ease...he goes 12 feet up and could go 13 feet up if necessary.

Marvin is another story. I haven't seen him do anything athletically that even approaches what JS has already done.

[Hoosier]

Even though BK did not get it right with the MW over DW, he still got equal value, or maybe better than equal value in the long run.

Probably the biggest over-sight BK has made, was the pick of Salim over Ellis. I know why he did it, but the second round is where you take chances. Of course, we may not have been able to hold on to him.

[DJlaysitup]

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Even though BK did not get it right with the MW over DW, he still got equal value, or maybe better than equal value in the long run...

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No offense...but are you insane?

[Hoosier]

Well, I guess that makes me one of the "boys", on this Board.

[Diesel]

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Even though BK did not get it right with the MW over DW, he still got equal value, or maybe better than equal value in the long run.

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What??? We had 5 Sfs and all of them are better than Marvin right now. Well, maybe just maybe Marvin is better than Donta.

[Hoosier]

In hindsight which everyone seems to love to use here, we know the pick was not the "right" one. But, at the time of the draft, Marvin was slated to be part of a future starting line-up that included JS at PF and JC at SG. Where is this lumber-jack log jam?

Diaw was already gone even though he had not been traded yet, Donta was eventually cut.

[Guest Walter]

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In hindsight which everyone seems to love to use here, we know the pick was not the "right" one. But, at the time of the draft, Marvin was slated to be part of a future starting line-up that included JS at PF and JC at SG. Where is this lumber-jack log jam?

Diaw was already gone even though he had not been traded yet, Donta was eventually cut.

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It wasn't hindsight that made it obvious to me. "Hindsight" is ONLY an excuse people who originally got it wrong use to make themselves feel better about their error. It isn't even to justify BK's decision because HIS JOB is to get it right regardless of the "media darling/consensus".

I watched MW play 15 games. No hindsight here. No hindsight needed. Just common sense and some insight. Sorry people need that hindsight crutch to "get around" their decision, but don't force it on others because YOU need it and don't expect it to hold water in defending BK. Hell, he's TWICE gone against the "consensus", more often than for it, and has gotten it 100% wrong there too.

& if you couldn't see the log jam, particularly next to our hole at Pg...you have no business discussing basketball and/or using logging references as you get either/both very wrong.

W