Hawks fans just want something new.

[AtLaS]

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When we were COMPLETELY healthy (and Marvin WAS healthy) Shelden sat on the bench and collected dust.

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We've been over this a million times. You could easily have taken two minutes each from Jones, Pachulia, Wright, Marvin, JJ, Smith, and Childress, and add those to the 5 or 6 per game that Shelden got after his "benching" and you get 20 minutes.

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I agree and I don't want to get into a huge debate over this again, but it's not exactly just that "easy" to shift all those minutes around..

[mrhonline]

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I agree and I don't want to get into a huge debate over this again, but it's not exactly just that "easy" to shift all those minutes around..

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I think you could easily transfer a few minutes away from Marvin, JJ, Jones, and Wright to give to Shelden. It's a lot tougher to do so for Pachulia, Childress, and Smith.

I do agree it is hard for Shelden to get minutes at PF with a healthy squad. Not to sound like Walter, but surely the Hawks realized Shelden is a waste otherwise? Why drop a #5 pick on a player you see as a backup...

...When Knight drafted Marvin he argued convincingly that there's more than enough minutes to go around between Childress, Marvin, and Smith at the forward position. I've yet to hear his logic about Shelden's playing time.

[Guest Walter]

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Al Horford

I like some parts of Horford game but there's a lot of work to be done. He has some potential but when did he become 6'10... or even 6'9? I really want to see when Measurements come out. I'm guessing 6'8 1/4. That's not that big of a deal though, it's always about how you play. I think he's more athletic than Shelden but at the same time, Shelden is years ahead of him in terms of development. Shelden has a post move and he has a midrange shot and he has good footwork on offense and defense. Horford lacks in all three areas. Horford works hard though but in this business as in all businesses you work smarter not harder.

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His shot is better, his release point better, everything about it is better. It's not even close. He also has more post moves than SW. He can run the entire court and lead a break. Frankly Horford doesn't have a weak point to his game and he even plays with more intensity than SW. It's not even close in terms of NBA potential.

Horford has got professional, NBA power forward written all over him. SW had short college center written all over him. You HAVE to be able to tell the difference between such players or else you look foolish Diesel. Mind you, if Horford measures in at 6'8", 1/2" taller than SW, his stock should take a little hit, but so should have SW's (it didn't), Horford's also considerably LONGER, and his height isn't in his forehead. This simply isn't even close. We BLEW IT with SW and Horford would be an upgrade at Pf. Too bad.

W

[mrhonline]

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Some of you are so stuck on the thought of new that you wouldn't dare agree about trading the pick for an established player..

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I've just about given up on coming up with trade scenarios. You never can predict what a GM will do.

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Roy Hibbert

I think I was the first to talk about Hibbert.

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IIRC, it was actually KB who first mentioned him positively...

[Diesel]

The first person to talk about Hibbert was:

bsure... on Oct 12, 2005...

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bsure

stranger

Reged: 10/12/05

Posts: 12

Re: I agree [Re: KB21]

#112645 - 12/24/05 09:26 PM

Edit post Edit Reply to this post Reply Reply to this post Quote

Watch out for Roy Hibbert. He's a 7-2 280lb soph center at Georgetown who is starting to blossom.

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I was wrong!!

[thesheedera]

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I simply ask that you hang around while History decides who was right and who was wrong.

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All I've said is that I think Conley's gonna be excellent and I would rather take him than Law. I'm not claiming that you're wrong if you disagree. You're trying to make Conley look like a bum.

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Don't be like KB and the rest of the Marvin Williams = the next MJ group who even now refuses to admit that we made a mistake picking the Hype Machine's favorite child...

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When have I claimed that Marvin was the right pick?

[Diesel]

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When have I claimed that Marvin was the right pick?

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Did you think I would let you just wiggle away with this tired flacid statement as if you have not been picking Marvin's side on just about every Marvin thread?

OK, on to the turth:

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The thinking is fair too. Missing Paul may have been a huge mistake. If he improves from his great start he could be a great point guard. But that fact alone can't justify the argument that drafting Marvin was a mistake. his course is still not set in stone.

I try to look at it as separate things - 1) missing Paul - Bad thing. 2) drafting Marvin - Good thing.

Especially since every indication was that we wanted Deron more.

Finally someone on the national level gives Marv a little slack.

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Click 1

I could go farther, but why?

[thesheedera]

Diesel, he's my favorite player on the team, but I've admitted that he was the wrong pick. As a fan of his I'm glad the Hawks have him despite the mistake.

You had to go back to January of 06 for crying out loud, and I wasn't saying it was the right choice, I was saying I was glad he was a Hawk.

Since that point I've become even more convinced that Paul, Deron or Felton would have been better picks, but I'm still glad Marvin's a Hawk.

I don't have any BS for you to call out.

Once again, every conversation with you goes back to the Marvin pick, it's really astounding.

[TexasPete]

Sheed, I get your position 100% and I must say it makes total sense. There are those of us who think Marvin was the wrong pick but also recognize he is going to be very good in the future.

I almost feel sorry for Diesel because the Marvin pick may send him to the shrink for Prozac. He may have to be institutionalized over this issue. The funny part is the fool then turns around and calls Shelden the next Mailman.

He defends the stiff with no offensive game, the guy who can't stop a statue of the dribble and compares him to the best PF in the history of the league.

The pathetic thing is that he can't get that some people can hate the pick but like the kid. That doesn't compute at all. In his tiny mind you can't like Marvin and dislike the pick. I get a lot of amusement at the time he wastes hating Marvin.

Hey Diesel, you haven't traded Marvin in about 8 minutes, I think you need to post a Marvin trade pretty soon. How about Marvin for a pint of Jack Daniels, some flashlight batteries, a 3-Musketeers Bar, and a pocket comb? I'll bet some team would do that even for Marvin.

[Diesel]

I believe the Jack Daniels pint would be far too valuable to give up for Marvin.

The Jack Daniels have been aged.

I look forward to the future TP...

Really. This is year 3 coming up.

By Year 5, Will you be saying "come on guys, he's only 23... He's still really young."

Sadly, there are just some who can see the truth and you are not one of those who can. So now, you're resorting to pointing the finger at MEAN ole Diesel and making him the bad guy and trying to gather a group of people who thinks that Marvin is somehow going to turn out to be a good pick.

I told you back in 2005.

IF Marvin is not better than Deron, Paul, or Smoove then he's a bust for us.

PERIOD.

We wasted our turn at the bat.

Now all the sudden you want to talk about how pretty the swing was??

[TexasPete]

Diesel, I don't know why I bother debating you because your too easy. You didn't tell me anything in 2005 because I was firmly behind Deron Williams. I emailed every Hawk owner multiple times begging for Deron. Same with Deng and last year with Roy and Foye. Apparently, Levenson and Gearon don't care what I have to say.

You don't listen. I have told you on numerous occasions that I did not want Marvin Williams because I wanted a great PG and we already had two SF's.

But, your "logic" in saying that if Marvin isn't better than Deron he is a bust is assinine, stupid, and borderline retarded. Seriously. One thing has nothing to do with the other and a person with even a little intellect would never craft an argument based on that assumption.

Marvin will develop at his pace and that will be unrelated to the two PG's. It's a sunk cost. It's over. Done. Finished.

How is it that you still don't understand my position or Sheedera's? Is it because it is the only intelligent position and you don't get intelligent positions? Believe it or not, you can be pissed that we missed on a great PG like Deron and still understand that the player we got, while not as advanced now, still may have a great future. That reasonable concept is far beyond your reach.

[Diesel]

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But, your "logic" in saying that if Marvin isn't better than Deron he is a bust is assinine, stupid, and borderline retarded. Seriously. One thing has nothing to do with the other and a person with even a little intellect would never craft an argument based on that assumption.

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What's so illogical about questioning us picking a guy who will be our 6th Sf on the roster?? See, you and Sheedera seems to have clung to Carolina and you maybe a Carolina grad, there you need some schooling..

I said then, that if Marvin was not head and shoulders better than the two matured and battle tested PGs as well as the other Sf we had then picking him was a waste of our pick. At the time, we had 5 Sfs:

JC, JSmoove, Al, Diaw, and Donta. Even if you call JC a SG and AL a PF, that still leave JSmoove, Diaw, and Donta. Us picking Marvin was an indication that we believed that he would be better than these other three. Not just slightly better... you don't pass up a NEED for somebody that's only slightly better than what you already have.

Secondly... Everybody knew that Paul and Deron were the best PGs to come out in the last 3 to 4 years and would be the best to come out in the next 3 to 4 years. And guess what, we needed a PG. All we had was Lue dribbling the paint off the ball and he was a FA. We passed over these two players and you say "saying that if Marvin isn't better than Deron he is a bust is assinine, stupid, and borderline retarded." What are you a BK staffer?? Was it your stupid idea to pass over NEED and take a guy you would have to make excuses for for the next 5 years? IF you don't see how us taking Marvin doesn't require that he be better than them, then you need to stop posting and really go back to school.

Now as for you and these "emails to the owners"... Yeah. Right. I guess you sent that via the hindsight express. I bet you also sent an email to Kasten suggesting that he draft Karl Malone over Jon Koncak too... Or maybe you sent an Email to Auther Blank urging him to do whatever he could to get Calvin Johnson. Hell, why stop at Sports... I'm sure you sent an email to Colin Powell saying that there are no weapons of mass destruction. Keep up the good work Hindsight emailer... tell us ole Hindsight emailer, what draft pick are you emailing Hawks ownership about today?? Let me guess... Greg Oden?

[TexasPete]

I emailed the Hawks and their owners all the time until about 2 weeks ago. I had a decent relationship with Levenson until March when I went off after the AJ trade. He and Mullin have responded to just about every email sent to them, not just mine. Levenson had received email from me leading up to every draft and has responded. I have shared with him my opinions based on who I thought would be there when we drafted.

I have shared emails from these guys with others on this board. I won't share anything with you because your a jackass who has never gotten inside the game of basketball. Your following the wrong game. Switch to Lacrosse or something. Maybe bowling.

These players are like stocks. Marvin is not the stock I would have picked but after owning it for awhile I can see that the stock may be OK over the long haul. Some stocks do great from Day 1 and others require a longer term view. I know this concept is foreign to you, above over your head. Marvin is like a bank or insurance stock, he doesn't look all that pretty short term but the longer you own it the better you feel about it. Again, this is well beyond your grasp.

[Diesel]

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These players are like stocks. Marvin is not the stock I would have picked but after owning it for awhile I can see that the stock may be OK over the long haul. Some stocks do great from Day 1 and others require a longer term view. I know this concept is foreign to you, above over your head. Marvin is like a bank or insurance stock, he doesn't look all that pretty short term but the longer you own it the better you feel about it. Again, this is well beyond your grasp.

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Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion.

Hope is not foriegn to me. I have seen it and have participated in it. However, hope must be placed into something that has the likelihood of happening. Your hope is basisless. Marvin plays the most run of the mill dime a dozen position in the game of basketball. With the amount of time that we have played Marvin, if he were to ever approach stardom, he would have done it by now.

Investing in Marvin is like Investing in a startup that say that repairs shoes. On the surface, it sounds good. In the beginning it sounds like it has a good market. I mean everybody wears shoes. However, after 2 years of business, you find out that your start up isn't making much. YOu being the investor you are TP says "it's just a matter of time." But the rest of us says that your cobbler lacks experience. He can't fix heels, he lacks costumer service, and he doesn't get the job right every time. All the while, there are other cheaper shoe repair stores that are popping up that work faster and do a better job with better costumer service. Yet, you continue to say " well give the investment more time."...

[TexasPete]

Pathetic.

[Joker]

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Have you guys listened to yourselves?? I mean really have you listened to yourselves?

"Every post is about how great ___________ is coming out of college and how he's much better than _______________ that plays for the Hawks. I believe _______________ would make us a playoff contender."

I have to ask the question, do you guys even watch college basketball or do you wait for the NCAA tourney and just watch a guy blow up there? A lot of the guys who you guys talk so highly of would not make it off our bench for more than 10 mpg. There is only 2 in this draft who would: Oden and Durant.

I told you before, this draft is not so good after the first 2. I hate to tell you this also but after the first two, #3 should be Noah.

But that's another subject... back to the hawks fans needing something called new!!

Some of you are so stuck on the thought of new that you wouldn't dare agree about trading the pick for an established player..

Let's look at the laundry list:

Conley Jr:

Flavor of the week. He really hasn't proved anything and 1 month ago, he was trying to urge Oden to stay at OSU. Ask Marvin why you are supposed to leave when the good players leave. Now let's get technical... Conley Jr's biggest compliment is that he looked so poised in the tourney. Hello Mateen Cleaves. The truth is Conley Jr. is undersized, underweight, not a great shooter and not really what you would call a "pure" PG. He's like Speedy Claxton all over again!

Corey Brewer:

If we were talking about a defensive player to compliment Smoove, this is the second guy you want. However, I've been reading about how great Brewer is and how he's guaranteed Allstar. To be an allstar you have to be able to score. Brewer's problem is this, he's not a ball handler, he's not so strong, he hasn't completely developed a move. He can post up pretty good but how many 6'7" guys do you think will be able to post up the Sf position? Plus, he lacks the strength to be able to be a post up Sf. I would love to say he's the next Vince Carter or the Next Paul Pierce, but I don't see it. I think he will be a very good defender (with time) but offensively his game needs lots of development.

Jeff Green:

This is the first guy you want if you're going after a defensive player to compliment Smoove. I love Green's game and if he were taller, I would call him Scottie Pippen like. BUT Green can't shoot from 3 and he doesn't score off the dribble so well. He's going to be a great pickup but he's not a Durant or a game changer. He will be a great player to put in a system with veterans (like Detroit). He may end up being better than Deng... but the question is will any of the GTown boys come out?

Roy Hibbert

I think I was the first to talk about Hibbert. I still like a lot of what I see in Hibbert and think he will definitely be a good pro. However, he doesn't rebound well nor does he seem to have rebounding footwork down pact. He blocks shots, but I think that's because he's 7'2" in college. In the pros, I don't think his timing is that great. I would love for him to spend a summer with Deke and then both of them come to Atlanta next season, but he won't be a game changer neither. Not right away. Puls, Will he come out?

Al Horford

I like some parts of Horford game but there's a lot of work to be done. He has some potential but when did he become 6'10... or even 6'9? I really want to see when Measurements come out. I'm guessing 6'8 1/4. That's not that big of a deal though, it's always about how you play. I think he's more athletic than Shelden but at the same time, Shelden is years ahead of him in terms of development. Shelden has a post move and he has a midrange shot and he has good footwork on offense and defense. Horford lacks in all three areas. Horford works hard though but in this business as in all businesses you work smarter not harder.

Yi JianLian

I like this guy because of his name. JianLian. I know nothing about him (that I have seen). I doubt that any of you do either so let's not act like experts. I may have watched him in the world games but i wasn't really paying that much attention. I think being 7 foot is a good thing everyday. Plus I read that he's pretty mobile. That's it though. Honestly, I would rather take a shot at Darko. But I would love to try to come up with a nickname for the newest Hawks: JL...J-Li... YiJiLi. ..YJL! GEELEE.... General Li!! General Yi!!!

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You are finally starting to see the light, you will always be a Smoove fan and I'm not gonna discredit you for that, but as far as the college players you mention. All except for maybe Jian will be role players at the next level. Oudside of Oden and Durant and the only franchise player in this draft is Brandan Wright from UNC.

[Joker]

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Al Horford

I like some parts of Horford game but there's a lot of work to be done. He has some potential but when did he become 6'10... or even 6'9? I really want to see when Measurements come out. I'm guessing 6'8 1/4. That's not that big of a deal though, it's always about how you play. I think he's more athletic than Shelden but at the same time, Shelden is years ahead of him in terms of development. Shelden has a post move and he has a midrange shot and he has good footwork on offense and defense. Horford lacks in all three areas. Horford works hard though but in this business as in all businesses you work smarter not harder.

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His shot is better, his release point better, everything about it is better. It's not even close. He also has more post moves than SW. He can run the entire court and lead a break. Frankly Horford doesn't have a weak point to his game and he even plays with more intensity than SW. It's not even close in terms of NBA potential.

Horford has got professional, NBA power forward written all over him. SW had short college center written all over him. You HAVE to be able to tell the difference between such players or else you look foolish Diesel. Mind you, if Horford measures in at 6'8", 1/2" taller than SW, his stock should take a little hit, but so should have SW's (it didn't), Horford's also considerably LONGER, and his height isn't in his forehead. This simply isn't even close. We BLEW IT with SW and Horford would be an upgrade at Pf. Too bad.

W

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Being better then Sheldon doesn't mean he is a top 3 pick, he is far from being a good NBA player from I what I watch on him. Not to mention I seen about 40 of his games. No one on UF will be stars in the next level, no one. Noah has the best chance if in the RIGHT system, and the rest just are missing too much to make ground. Comparing SW to Horford is oranges to apples, but at the end of the day, Horford is a 10 to 12 years solid role player and SW will probably not be in the league in 3 years.

[Guest Walter]

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Being better then Sheldon doesn't mean he is a top 3 pick, he is far from being a good NBA player from I what I watch on him. Not to mention I seen about 40 of his games. No one on UF will be stars in the next level, no one. Noah has the best chance if in the RIGHT system, and the rest just are missing too much to make ground. Comparing SW to Horford is oranges to apples, but at the end of the day, Horford is a 10 to 12 years solid role player and SW will probably not be in the league in 3 years.

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I think both Brewer and Horford are better pro prosepcts than Noah but all three are good ones.

I would pick Brandan Wright over Horford as it stands, but who exactly would you take in place of Horford or where would you draft him. I realize that being better than SW doesn't mean much, but I think Horford is a decent bit better as a pro prospect.

W