It's (almost) unanimous how much BK sucks

[Packfill]

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I would have to argue that Smith is a bona fide starter right now for just about any team in the league. At least 75% of the teams would make room for him at SF or PF, maybe even more would be my guess not having every roster in front of me.

I think we have two very legit pieces in JJ and Smith, a couple of decent-probability-will-be-legit pieces (Marvin, Shelden), two legit 6th man type guys that could start on teams with stars at the other positions (Chil, Zaza - and to me, Marvin and Shelden's worst case scenario is ending up in this category, which isn't awful, but isn't great), one longshot but huge upside cheap guy (Solomon), one young backup guy with value as a specialist worth keeping around (Salim), and lots of completely replaceable backups that we should actively be trying to package in deals for legit starters(AJ, Lue, Speedy, Wright, Ivey, Batista).

I don't think anyone's untradeable by any means, but the order I put these guys in is the order I would think they are a priority to be kept.

If Shelden and Marvin realize their potential as true starting SF and PF in the league (like a Jamison and a Boozer for example), and we get franchise PG and Centers, I think we have championship talent.

Conley (or Crit or Law) - two of our backup PGs for depth

JJ - Salim - Chil (backups with opposite skills for matchup purposes

Marvin - Smith - Chill (Great depth and skill at SF)

Smith - Shelden (two starters in rotation depending on matchups, many games I would think Marvin and Smith would rotate at SF)

Oden - Zaza - Solomon

The franchise PG, JJ and Oden would be the cemented starters while Marvin, Smith and Shelden would probably share time as starters and 6th men. On a championship level team that ain't no slap in the face (Stackhouse, Jamison, Ginobli all are guys that have done it and still produce at a high level).

Obviously this scenario is the best case scenario and requires a tremendous amount of luck and player development, but it's a possibility, and it would validate the way the team's been built so far.

Chances of it happening are less than 5%.

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I agree with this except I think Smoove is locked in at one forward spot as he has proven to be head and shoulders better then the other forwards on the roster. So for match-up purposes I could see the Hawks playing Smith at one forward position and then alternating/rotating between Childress, Marvin and Sheldon depending on the particular matchup.

[AtLaS]

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This team would probably be better with a different GM.

My only point this entire time has been that Woody and bad luck are more to blame than BK for the failings of this team.

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Maybe Isaiah Thomas makes it worse, but there isn't a GM out there other than him that I could see doing worse than he has, certainly with the most important aspect...lottery picks.

I believe it to be 99.9% impossible for anyone to do worse at lottery selections than BK has been with us.

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At this point I'd turn over the reigns to Isiah in a heartbeat. Although he hasn't been a great GM, he's proved to be a good drafter. He's done as well with late 1sts and 2nd rounders as BK has with 3 top 6 picks.

[AHF]

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This team would probably be better with a different GM.

My only point this entire time has been that Woody and bad luck are more to blame than BK for the failings of this team.

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Maybe Isaiah Thomas makes it worse, but there isn't a GM out there other than him that I could see doing worse than he has, certainly with the most important aspect...lottery picks.

I believe it to be 99.9% impossible for anyone to do worse at lottery selections than BK has been with us.

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At this point I'd turn over the reigns to Isiah in a heartbeat. Although he hasn't been a great GM, he's proved to be a good drafter. He's done as well with late 1sts and 2nd rounders as BK has with 3 top 6 picks.

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He has been a good drafter but has been a disaster designing a team around shoot-first PGs that are totally incapable of playing together. He has also abused that fine eye for talent with signings like Jerome James.

If we are going to replace BK we should do better than Isiah when we are at the point where completing the balance on this team is so critical.

[AtLaS]

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He has been a good drafter but has been a disaster designing a team around shoot-first PGs that are totally incapable of playing together. He has also abused that fine eye for talent with signings like Jerome James.

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Yeah but how much does James really hurt them? They were already in cap hell. I realize that Isiah is part of that reason, but he's given this authority by the owners, and they were already WAY over the cap when they signed Thomas. They're still paying Allan Houston $20 million!

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If we are going to replace BK we should do better than Isiah when we are at the point where completing the balance on this team is so critical.

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Don't get me wrong, I don't think Isiah is good at all, but he also hasn't been put in a position like BK has. IMO we'd be much better off had he been our GM instead of BK. Our owners wouldn't have let him spend that much money on unpolished products.

[Diesel]

These guys know that every GM gets at least 2 coaches before he's fired.

[AHF]

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Don't get me wrong, I don't think Isiah is good at all, but he also hasn't been put in a position like BK has. IMO we'd be much better off had he been our GM instead of BK. Our owners wouldn't have let him spend that much money on unpolished products.

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You say that like being in the position BK has been is a good thing. It isn't. No GM wants to be in the position BK has been since Belkin broke up the ASG.

If you are a GM whose performance is justified by an argument that you would do a better job when you aren't allowed to spend money than you did when you had virtually unlimited financial resources, I don't want you managing my team.

[AtLaS]

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You say that like being in the position BK has been is a good thing. It isn't. No GM wants to be in the position BK has been since Belkin broke up the ASG.

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Exactly, BK has had 3 lotto picks, 5 total 1sts, and TONS of high 2nd rounders. Had Isiah had those picks, IMO we'd be much better off.

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If you are a GM whose performance is justified by an argument that you would do a better job when you

aren't allowed to spend money

than you did when you had virtually unlimited financial resources, I don't want you managing my team.

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Exactly when has BK not been allowed to spend money? We offered K-Mart a max contract, we offered Dampier a contract. We offered Cassell a good bit of money, we signed Zaza, we signed JJ to a max deal (in spite of Belkin, but it still got done nonetheless), we signed Speedy to a bigger than market value contract. We traded a CHEAP 2nd to spend $3 million on AJ. We are almost capped out, and will be soon.

[AHF]

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Exactly when has BK not been allowed to spend money? We offered K-Mart a max contract, we offered Dampier a contract.

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Those were significant offers (although Dampiers was way under his market value). Those were also pre-Belkin.

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We offered Cassell a good bit of money, we signed Zaza, we signed JJ to a max deal (in spite of Belkin, but it still got done nonetheless), we signed Speedy to a

bigger than market value

contract. We traded a CHEAP 2nd to spend $3 million on AJ. We are almost capped out, and will be soon.

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If you are talking about 3-4M contracts then you are right.

You have also just proven my point:

Jerome James 5 years, 30 million

Zaza Pachulia 4 year, 16 million

Thomas is terrible at spending $$. Good at picking draft picks. Really bad at putting together a cohesive team.

I am not debating BK v. Thomas. I am saying that if the Hawks make a change they need someone significantly better than Thomas and that I would never entrust the team to Isiah.

[TexasPete]

Diesel what you don't get is that guys like Lascar, Exodus, McClure, AHF, Atlas, etc would have ALL drafted better than BK. Every one of them. Like I said this is not physics, this has to do with not outsmarting yourself and just basic instinct. We have been presented with some really juicy options in the draft and we have come away underwhelmed.

There are a lot of guys I would trust here to make the pick because it isn't that tough when your picking 2-6. It gets dicey in the 12+ range, but where we pick is easy.

However, I would rather BK pick than you.

[AtLaS]

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Those were significant offers (although Dampiers was way under his market value). Those were also pre-Belkin.

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Belkin was still a member of the Spirit then, right? But Dallas is the ONLY team that would have given Damp that amount of money. I remember it was looking like he made a mistake opting out until Dallas bailed him out at the last second.

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You have also just proven my point:

Jerome James 5 years, 30 million

Zaza Pachulia 4 year, 16 million

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What I'm saying is that NYK was already $60 million over the cap, signing James didn't hurt them as much as it would have hurt us. It was WORTH taking the risk on James after the playoff performance that he had, especially since NYK ownership didn't dispute it.

[AHF]

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Those were significant offers (although Dampiers was way under his market value). Those were also pre-Belkin.

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Belkin was still a member of the Spirit then, right? But Dallas is the ONLY team that would have given Damp that amount of money. I remember it was looking like he made a mistake opting out until Dallas bailed him out at the last second.

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You and I remember this very differently. I remember BK making an offer and Dampier showing no interest in taking it because there were reported to be several teams who would exceed it.

Dallas exceeded it by probably 20M+ so it was never close to happening.

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You have also just proven my point:

Jerome James 5 years, 30 million

Zaza Pachulia 4 year, 16 million

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What I'm saying is that NYK was already $60 million over the cap, signing James didn't hurt them as much as it would have hurt us. It was WORTH taking the risk on James after the playoff performance that he had, especially since NYK ownership didn't dispute it.

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It cost the NYK 60M to sign James to that contract. Everyone and their brother knew he would flop and he did.

The NYK are no longer adding salary because of deals like this.

I can't imagine why anyone would accept Thomas' performance as a GM.

BTW - Thomas has had some top draft picks.

Thomas had last year's #2 overall draft pick.

He traded it in a bad deal.

He had the pick that became Nene (and could have been used on Amare Stoudamire). He also traded that in a bad dea.

I can understand wanting BK gone and never wanting him back.

I just can't understand endorsing Thomas' performance as a GM in the same breath.

[TexasPete]

Agreed. The Knicks also just gave the Bulls another high lottery pick. Thomas is the gift that keeps on giving.

BK sucks in the draft for sure but Thomas is like a drunken sailor that had a pocket full of cash.

[Guest Walter]

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Thomas is terrible at spending $$. Good at picking draft picks. Really bad at putting together a cohesive team.

I am not debating BK v. Thomas. I am saying that if the Hawks make a change they need someone significantly better than Thomas and that I would never entrust the team to Isiah.

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We all hope you are not suggesting BK is significantly better at "putting together a cohesive team". I don't think you are.

But yes. BK is very near if not worse than Thomas-bad overall, that is an insult to both, and we deserve better than either.

W

[Diesel]

That's probably because BK picked your Mused Marvin and I would have definitely gone with either Paul or Deron...

Going back for a second.

YOu don't know how those guys would have picked given all the information.

That's the problem with being an armchair GM. YOu only see the end result (hindsight) and the media hype. The GM has no hindsight and is privy to more than just the media hype about a player.

There are lots of GMs who historically make mistakes (in hindsight)... Do you think all of them are idoits? Maybe you should consider that given far more information than YOU that these GMs sometimes make mistakes.

[AtLaS]

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You and I remember this very differently. I remember BK making an offer and Dampier showing no interest in taking it because there were reported to be several teams who would exceed it.

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That's because Dampier wasn't worth more than what we offered him (a 3 year deal right?). Would you have wanted us to offer more? We easily could have, as evidenced by our MAX offer to K-mart during that same offseason.

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It cost the NYK

60M

to sign James to that contract. Everyone and their brother knew he would flop and he did.

The NYK are no longer adding salary because of deals like this.

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Yeah I know, and that's a very bad deal. But what I'm saying is that Thomas wouldn't have signed James to that contract in Atlanta (IMO). NYK's front office agreed with it, and agreed to pay it, it didn't hurt their salary cap, so it was a risk worth taking after his recent playoff performance.

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I can't imagine why anyone would accept Thomas' performance as a GM.

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I don't at all, I think Thomas is a horrible GM. I just think he's better than BK.

[AHF]

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You and I remember this very differently. I remember BK making an offer and Dampier showing no interest in taking it because there were reported to be several teams who would exceed it.

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That's because Dampier wasn't worth more than what we offered him (a 3 year deal right?). Would you have wanted us to offer more? We easily could have, as evidenced by our MAX offer to K-mart during that same offseason.

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That sounds like you are saying we offered value for him and that was a good decision by BK. I know there is no way in h#*$ I wanted to offer Dampier more than what we did. My view was offer him what he is worth and let him walk if he gets more.

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It cost the NYK

60M

to sign James to that contract. Everyone and their brother knew he would flop and he did.

The NYK are no longer adding salary because of deals like this.

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Yeah I know, and that's a very bad deal. But what I'm saying is that Thomas wouldn't have signed James to that contract in Atlanta (IMO). NYK's front office agreed with it, and agreed to pay it, it didn't hurt their salary cap, so it was a risk worth taking after his recent playoff performance.

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NYK's front office was Thomas. The owner hired him as GM and opened the checkbook and said "make this team better." He used that carte blanche to waste 60 million dollars on James. It wasn't worth the risk anymore than Tim Thomas was worth a huge deal after playing well for 3 weeks.

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I can't imagine why anyone would accept Thomas' performance as a GM.

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I don't at all, I think Thomas is a horrible GM. I just think he's better than BK.

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Saying "At this point I'd turn over the reigns to Isiah in a heartbeat." (actual statement for clarification) sounds a lot like saying you would accept Isiah in Atlanta. That is the statement to which I was objecting.

If you are saying "Isiah is slightly better than BK but no way in hell I'd turn over the reigns to Isiah if I was hiring in Atlanta" (hypothetical statement) then I can understand that argument a lot better.

[AtLaS]

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That sounds like you are saying we offered value for him and that was a good decision by BK. I know there is no way in h#*$ I wanted to offer Dampier more than what we did. My view was offer him what he is worth and let him walk if he gets more.

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Yeah it was a good salary cap decision by BK, but he also made a bad one that offseason in regards to the cap. Had K-mart taken the deal, BK would be just as at fault..

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NYK's front office was Thomas. The owner hired him as GM and opened the checkbook and said "make this team better." He used that carte blanche to waste 60 million dollars on James. It wasn't worth the risk anymore than Tim Thomas was worth a huge deal after playing well for 3 weeks.

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I agree, I'm just saying, with that it was a risk worth taking since he was given the resources to do so.. I'm not saying it was a good risk, but a risk worth taking. A 5 year 30 million deal isn't bad for an average backup center, especially since NYK had no centers at the time. However, they are in luxury tax so it seems worse, but with the owners consent why not give it a shot..

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Saying "At this point I'd turn over the reigns to Isiah in a heartbeat." (actual statement for clarification) sounds a lot like saying you would accept Isiah in Atlanta. That is the statement to which I was objecting.

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Yeah I guess that statement read differently than I typed it. I basically meant I'd take Isiah over BK, not that I think he's WORLDS better by any means. They are both bad, but PERSONALLY I'd rather have Isiah.. That's just my opinion, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree..

[Popeye]

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That's probably because BK picked your Mused Marvin and I would have definitely gone with either Paul or Deron...

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I am sure he said he would of select Deron or Paul as well, but you don't read you just write same crap all over again.

[AHF]

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That sounds like you are saying we offered value for him and that was a good decision by BK. I know there is no way in h#*$ I wanted to offer Dampier more than what we did. My view was offer him what he is worth and let him walk if he gets more.

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Yeah it was a good salary cap decision by BK, but he also made a bad one that offseason in regards to the cap. Had K-mart taken the deal, BK would be just as at fault..

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That would have been a disaster if he had signed Martin, no question.

[TexasPete]

Exactly, he doesn't read and he doesn't comprehend. Marvin was not my first choice, Deron was. Diesel makes no sense most of the time because he just makes stuff up as he goes. He is too busy with his own nonsense...Diesel's post of the day...Diesel's opinion on global warming...Diesel's way to win it all next year...blah, blah, blah.

It's like the bearded lady at the circus. You look but not because it's pretty.