It's (almost) unanimous how much BK sucks

[Dejay]

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I'm not convinced we have the talent yet. If you think of this team compared to championship teams - I am hoping that is our goal, then

PG - no starter, a couple backups and some that should go

SG - OK here we have JJ, with Salim and JC as weak backups

SF - no-one ready yet. Maybe Marvin or JS in the future.

PF - no-one ready yet. Maybe JS in the future. Shelden and Solomon may develop into a decent backup.

C - Zaza? If we were strong everywhere else zaza might do - but he seems more of a good backup - needs to work more on his defense.

So I don't think we are close yet in talent. We have ONE position filled. MAYBE we can solidify the forward positions with what we have but I'm not that confident. I think we need to be solid in the PG and at least three of the other positions to do serious damage in the playoffs.

Billy has drafted a good bench so far. But could he really have done much worse with the picks he's had? We've argued about every one of his picks (except JS). And he even picks some international players - but has no intention of really using them (Anderson, Batista, the turkish guard, and Diaw?). I think anyone on this board could have done as well - especially when you get all the scouting reports.

His trades have taken too long to get done and usually end up with another bench player - he either gets crap or pays too much. He has given away our cap space for cripples and has-beens. (BK also deserves PART of the blame for the ownership problem - by insisting on JJ at any cost. And of course there is the famous picture of him insulting Belkin by not shaking hands - humiliating Belkin publicly probably didn't help either.)

Our best hope right now is to get LUCKY in the draft, rather than rely on that brilliant basketball mind.

I would love to see his position description, because I would guess that part of his job is media relations and building a fan base. In that area he has failed miserably.

I do agree that it is Woody's job to develop that talent. But does Woody really have experience in doing that? Wasn't Detroit a fairly vetern group of players? Does Woody really know how to use a bunch of young kids? Does he know how to use international players? Does he know how to coach a running team?

Oh well. So how do both these guys get to keep their jobs? I don't understand. But I guess it is like those draft picks, we just have to accept reality and move on - hoping to get lucky or giving up on the Hawks completely.

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You sir, deserve a standing ovation.

[TexasPete]

I agree, that was a great post. Billy is truly a recluse, not only awful at his basic job but he doesn't build any bridges at all with fans or media. If he were a better GM with an excellent track record we could excuse his eccentric ways. Like Schuerholz...that dude is the best.

But, Billy is an eccentric with a highly unusual method for picking players. It has clearly not worked out.

Then, Gearon marches into Bradley's office and produces a bunch of BS that doesn't remotely compute. Comparing HOF coaches and GM's to guys like Woodson and BK.

The whole damn organization is polluted with incompetancy. Its tough to support this garbage and to have the owners out front saying things like BK is the smartest BBall man he has ever met...it makes you want to find something else to do with your time. I wonder if any of these owners realize how their incompetant views impact the entire fan base. How did we end up with such poor ownership? Almost all of us agree that Woody and BK are a huge problem and yet they remain. We can despise the coach and GM all day long but our problem is the ASG. The buck stops with them.

[AtLaS]

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Then, Gearon marches into Bradley's office and produces a bunch of BS that doesn't remotely compute. Comparing HOF coaches and GM's to guys like Woodson and BK.

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I thought those quotes were proven to not be out of Gearon's mouth? I thought they were just posted in his blog or something, but he didn't really say them..

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The whole damn organization is polluted with incompetancy. Its tough to support this garbage and to have the owners out front saying things like BK is the smartest BBall man he has ever met...it makes you want to find something else to do with your time. I wonder if any of these owners realize how their incompetant views impact the entire fan base. How did we end up with such poor ownership? Almost all of us agree that Woody and BK are a huge problem and yet they remain. We can despise the coach and GM all day long but our problem is the ASG. The buck stops with them.

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I really don't think the Spirit supports Woodson and BK as much as they say. I really think it's a matter of them not wanting to fork over the money to fire them at the current moment. But they can't say that publically, so they make excuses for each of them and blame injuries and what not (the average fan will buy this). Seriously, it's a business TP, they are going to act like they support them 100%, even if they really don't. They can't say "Man Woodson's a horrible coach and BK's an incompetant GM, but we can't fork over the money to pay them."

I think it's a matter of them being cheap while the court thing is settled, not that they don't understand. It's 8 guys that own this team, trust me they realize how bad BK and Woody are.

[TroyMcClure]

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Then, Gearon marches into Bradley's office and produces a bunch of BS that doesn't remotely compute. Comparing HOF coaches and GM's to guys like Woodson and BK.

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I thought those quotes were proven to not be out of Gearon's mouth? I thought they were just posted in his blog or something, but he didn't really say them..

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You're wrong, AtLaS. He made those comments to Mark Bradley. I read the article. You should pull it up. Or my thread disecting it. He's a major tool.

I feel where you're coming from about the whole ownership, but I think you are wrong there, too. They are that dumb. They really are, man.

[TexasPete]

The actual blog with Bradley was what I was talking about, not the imposter. What Gearon said to Mark Bradley was the real issue that I have.

I disagree about them not really wanting Woodson and Knight. They may be slightly hamstrung but the depth of their passion for these two is amazing and it is no act. Believe me, they think Knight is a great basketball man and they believe he is the best candidate for building this team going forward. They give him free reign, look at the Shelden pick. When you talk to Levenson he just thinks that this whole thing will be vindicated soon enough. He knows in his misguided heart that they are close, real close, and BK, Woody, and the ASG will all be heroes when this thing plays out. They really believe that this year would have been the year but the injuries were too much. They KNOW its all getting better as soon as they get healthy. Levenson told me flat out that I was dead wrong and they would look forward to proving me wrong. He told me that both Woodson and Knight were held in incredible regard within the pro basketball community.

Atlas, you give them far too much credit. They don't get it and they never will.

[Lascar78]

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Then, Gearon marches into Bradley's office and produces a bunch of BS that doesn't remotely compute. Comparing HOF coaches and GM's to guys like Woodson and BK.

The whole damn organization is polluted with incompetancy. Its tough to support this garbage and to have the owners out front saying things like BK is the smartest BBall man he has ever met...

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He did not. He said that even guys like Phil and Riley went backwards due to injuries, yet it doesn't mean they should be fired. He never suggested Woody was in their league. Same thing when he basically said that even a great GM like Dumars totally screwed up his highest pick. He never said BK was nearly as good as him.

As for BK being the smartest basketball mind, first of all it was about Woodson, and secondly all we know is someone claiming to be Gearon posted it, and it probably wasn't him.

Here's the entire article.

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It’s impossible not to like Michael Gearon Jr. He’s conspicuously clever and relentlessly upbeat. Then again, he’s upbeat about an NBA franchise that has lost 177 games in the three seasons since he has been one of its several owners. When does remaining upbeat about the Hawks stop making sense?

“If we weren’t injured, I think we could have done what [upstart division-winner] Toronto did,” Gearon says. “We started off strong. We’d probably have won between 36 and 46 games. If we’d won 36 games, would you have called that progress?”

Sure. But the cold truth is that the Hawks didn’t win 36 games in the season just completed. They won 30 and finished with the NBA’s fourth-worst record a year after winning 26 games and finishing in a tie for third-worst. The difference between Gearon and those with a less-vested interest is that we apparently have different definitions of progress.

He arrives for lunch Monday at his favorite restaurant with a satchel full of data — a Hawks media guide, computer printouts, a pad full of handwritten notes and a typed sheet bearing the heading “Message Points.” Gearon has volunteered to give his “50,000-foot look at the franchise” because Billy Knight, the general manager who said a year ago he cares nothing for public opinion, declined an offer to make his opinions public.

Inevitably, the two-hour conversation becomes a debate about Knight, who continues to be held in curiously high regard by every part-owner save Steve Belkin. Says Gearon:

“My defense of Billy is that there’s not a single GM who clicks on all levels.”

Also this: “”There’s not a good GM around the league who doesn’t think Billy is right on target.”

And this:

“A lot of people would pick [Detroit’s Joe] Dumars as a great GM. In a draft with Carmelo Anthony and Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade, he took Darko Milicic. That’s a pretty dumb move looking back.”

And this: “”I think you’re too harsh on [Knight]. Do you want to fire 29 other GMs? … You can micromanage anybody. Nobody has ever batted 1.000.”

At issue is whether Knight is even above .250. In each of the first four drafts he has overseen here, the Hawks have taken a demonstrably lesser player with their first pick when a better one was available. This wouldn’t seem to be micromanaging. This would seem a pattern of failure.

To other people, maybe. Says Gearon: “That’s where I disagree — we’ve had three players [Josh Childress, Josh Smith and Marvin Williams] who were second-team all-NBA [rookies] … There’s not an executive in the NBA who wouldn’t have taken Marvin … Is Josh Smith a good player? Is Josh Childress an NBA player? … [They’re] not Cal Bowdler or [Douglas] Edwards or Ed Gray [three first-round duds taken by Pete Babcock].”

On the Hawks as a whole: “We have 12 [bona fide] NBA players on our roster now; three years ago we had zero.”

So why hasn’t this accumulated talent won more games? Injuries, Gearon says. He refers to his notes. Six Hawks missed at least 18 games, the estimable Joe Johnson chief among them.

He notes that Miami and the L.A. Lakers had multiple injuries and finished with lesser records than a year ago.

“When you get hurt, you usually go backwards. We went forward. Should [Pat] Riley be fired? Should Phil Jackson be fired? Because they went backwards.”

On Mike Woodson, who apparently will be retained as coach despite being 108 games under .500: “I’ve told him this: If we have 30 wins next season, Woodson’s not going to be around.”

Gearon insists these owners could, by majority vote, fire Woodson (or Knight) if they so desired, ongoing litigation notwithstanding. When will the court case — Belkin versus everybody else — be resolved? “I hope in my lifetime.”

And maybe, in all of our lifetimes, we’ll see these Hawks actually win. “I don’t believe in setting deadlines,” Gearon says. “It’s unfair to do that. Are we making progress? We had some good things happens this season.”

How much longer are these owners prepared to wait? “I don’t like to lose. I get frustrated as hell. But I don’t get frustrated with the development of young players … You’re beating me up over what the house looks like when we’re only on the first floor. And I think we’re beyond the first floor, by the way.”

Perhaps they are. Perhaps next season will be the one, Gearon says, when “it suddenly clicks.” Then again, there’s a chance the team bearing the NBA’s fourth-worst record could wind up without a first-round pick if the draft lottery goes against them.

“And we could end up with the No. 1 and the No. 11 picks,” says Gearon, accentuating the positive yet again. “And then people will think Billy Knight is a genius.”

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Of course Gearon is overly optimistic, he is a fan, and he's not going to sh!t on the franchise that he part-owns. But all the insane quotes about Woody being the world's greatest bball mind and us winning a title next year were blog comments posted by God knows who. If he did make those posts though, he needs serious mental help.

[Lascar78]

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They KNOW its all getting better as soon as they get healthy. Levenson told me flat out that I was dead wrong and they would look forward to proving me wrong.

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Well it depends on what they mean by better. If they mean getting back to the playoffs, I tend to agree. If they mean contention, they are out of their minds. This roster needs major trades to balance the roster out and BK is apparently unwilling or unable to do it.

What did he tell you?

BTW the one time I talked to Levenson I got the distinct sense that he was not a big Woody fan. I asked him specific questions about coaching stuff that Woody does and he said that he had similar concerns and has regular meetings with him to ask him why he does some stuff. I did get the feeling that he believed in the team though, that we needed time because we were still so young.

[TroyMcClure]

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This is not about you Walter, everyone knows how well you would have drafted. This is about what other "genius" GMs did in other cities, get it?

Let me ask you this, do you consider Dumars a good/great GM? We all know what he did, in 2003 he looked over Anthony, Bosh, Wade, Hinrich ...for what? Detroit could sure have used one of those guys. Where do you think Denver would be right now with Stoudemire vs. Tskitishvili?

These examples are far worse mistakes than what BK has made yet, and yet those GMs were/are highly regarded. It is very hard to project talent from HS/College/Overseas onto an NBA floor. I thought Devin Harris was can't miss, but he has turned out to be very limited in the NBA. I think this is why BK is so stifling conservative with his picks, he just wants to make sure he adds talent at this point, which he has done.

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When you have a certain competency level, win games, and compete in the playoffs every year, you draft with a different mindset. You look for pieces, sometimes. You may miss. When you are like the Hawks, and you draft "pieces"(Chillz) instead of "talent"(Deng)(Iggy) you get a BIG "piece" of CRAP.

[AtLaS]

That's what I think, they support them, but they don't support them 100%

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“I’ve told him this: If we have 30 wins next season, Woodson’s not going to be around.”

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This is the only quote that really rattles me.. How is the standard only 30 wins? We won 30 this year and it was all blamed on injuries. Yet NEXT YEAR (with our continued improvement) and with the hope of no injuries, the standard is only 30 wins?? WTF..

[TroyMcClure]

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He did not. He said that even guys like Phil and Riley went backwards due to injuries, yet it doesn't mean they should be fired. He never suggested Woody was in their league.

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WTF? What context was it in, then? The issue was Woody. He brought up those names to compare their situation with Woody's. WTF are you trying to do by saying stuff like this?

You should work for Fox Noise.

[Lascar78]

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That's what I think, they support them, but they don't support them 100%

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“I’ve told him this: If we have 30 wins next season, Woodson’s not going to be around.”

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This is the only quote that really rattles me.. How is the standard only 30 wins? We won 30 this year and it was all blamed on injuries. Yet NEXT YEAR (with our continued improvement) and with the hope of no injuries, the standard is only 30 wins?? WTF..

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Well I think the whole purpose of this article was to tell people why they think Woody and BK should stay despite just 30 wins. I think that specific quote was their way of saying that they don't think 30 wins is good enough in general, but that they thought there were extenuating circumstances this year. If anything I thought this was the most reassuring quote.

I know that going into this year their goal was to win around 40 wins and squeak into the playoffs. I don't know what the minimum # of wins for Woody or Bk to stay would have been, but I would hope that it would have been at least 35 or so without injuries. Next year should probably be playoffs or they're gone.

[Lascar78]

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WTF? What context was it in, then? The issue was Woody. He brought up those names to compare their situation with Woody's. WTF are you trying to do by saying stuff like this?

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I don't know what you don't follow. It's not my fault if you're logically challenged. You can bring up great people in the course of a conversation without equating them to the subjects. Again, as I said, he never suggested Woody was in their league. I don't know what is so hard to understand.

Example A - comparing and equating them.

"Mike Woodson is a future hall of fame coach who is as good as Phil and Riley. All three of these great coaches had injury problems and they will be back next year. Mike Woodson would not have let Miami get swept."

Example B - not equating them but merely bringing them up, a.k.a what Gearon said, reading between the lines

"Well even all-time greats like Phil and Riley can only do so much when there are heavy injuries like this year, but it doesn't change your opinion of them. You can't win when your roster is unavailable. The injuries were not Woody's fault either so we're not going to fire him. He gets one more chance next year and he better not screw it up or he's gone."

[TroyMcClure]

If you don't think he was trying to equate injuries and their toll on the respective teams and coaches, you have the mental abilities of a cocker spaniel. Or the spine of a jellyfish. Who are you trying to defend here?

His point was that even great coaches can have bad years because of injuries. The implication being that Woody has had injuries, like the great coaches, and should be given another chance to be "great" like them.

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You can bring up great people in the course of a conversation without equating them to the subjects.

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Why would you?

Even mentioning them is insulting to me. Why didn't he mention Terry Stotts? You are so full of sh!t it's not even funny.

[TexasPete]

When you bring up Riley and Jackson while defending your own coach it doesn't look good in my view. He could haved said something like..."well, even great coaches fall short and even take a step backward every now and again". That isn't what he said....

I also got the impression from Levenson that he LOVED Woodson. I had a detailed exchange with him based upon the fact that I have an Indiana University background and knew Woodson way back when. So, he opened up quite a bit about Woodson to me.

Gearon and the ASG are not to be defended at this point because they have failed in so many ways. Too many to count. This team is in total chaos and you can blame Belkin for some things but these guys didn't do their homework. Their GM has been a disaster, their coach has made numerous mistakes and plays a style ill suited to the talent on the team.

Until proven otherwise, these guys are simply overmatched.

[AHF]

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If you don't think he was trying to equate injuries and their toll on the respective teams and coaches, you have the mental abilities of a cocker spaniel. Or the spine of a jellyfish. Who are you trying to defend here?

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Lascar is saying Gearon was equating the impact of injuries on all three teams. What Lascar is saying is that although the impact of injuries may be the same for any coach, Gearon was not taking the next step to say that Woodson=Jackson.

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His point was that even great coaches can have bad years because of injuries. The implication being that Woody has had injuries, like the great coaches, and should be given another chance to be "great" like them.

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I don't know if it means he deserves another chance to be great so much as that there is nothing anyone can do if you are struck down by injuries even if you are a great coach.

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You can bring up great people in the course of a conversation without equating them to the subjects.

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Why would you?

Even mentioning them is insulting to me. Why didn't he mention Terry Stotts? You are so full of sh!t it's not even funny.

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You can bring them up without equating them for the very reason you mentioned above - that injuries can take their toll on teams regardless of what a coach does. If he brought up Terry Stotts it would not be a persuasive argument because you could point out that Stotts is not a good coach and argue that he should have won with those injuries anyway. No one blames Riley or Jackson for their teams taking a step back in injury-raddled seasons because their performance is generally unquestioned.

By using a coach that is revered, you can show the impact of injuries in the truest form rather than a situation where bad coaching and injuries combined to tank a team.

There may be no defense of Woodson's performance but if you are going to keep him probably the best we could hope to hear is "we gave him a pass because of injuries but if he doesn't really improve the team next year he is gone." I think that is basically what we heard from Gearon with the comment about Woodson being gone if the team wins 30 games (i.e., performs like this season).

Gearon isn't going to mandate his true minimum standard in the press - but saying that this year was unacceptable is at least something.

Assuming that the subsequent blog posts were not from Gearon, the interview was still depressing but not nearly as bad as the subsequent supposed blog posts.

[Lascar78]

I didn't think this was so complicated. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills around here sometimes. Logic shouldn't go right out the window just because you dislike a guy and you want every opportunity to bash him.

[TroyMcClure]

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You can bring them up without equating them for the very reason you mentioned above - that injuries can take their toll on teams regardless of what a coach does. If he brought up Terry Stotts it would not be a persuasive argument

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It's intellectual dishonesty, AHF. The analogy does not work for me on a number of levels. The first being that the Lakers and Heat both made the playoffs. He's being dishonest with himself when he makes this argument. That alone makes his words worthless.

The thing you're talking about being ok, isn't. Not for real men, anyway. You're talking about childish semantics. I know, you know, Lascar knows, everyone knows what he was trying to to. Pathetic. His basketball smarts are non existent. This is what makes the act so egregious. If Dominique were defending BK or Woody, I would question myself for a minute. But when I hear this kind of garbage from someone who probably wasn't even good enough to play JV ball, even though he was around the best players all the time, it is borderline infuriating. We are losers because of punks like this guy. He's killing the "intelligent" fan inside of me.

I'm sorry, I can't stand a man lying to himself, and me in the process. I cannot respect that for one minute. This was not a court of law, this was a restaurant, and the court of public opinion. He just lost.

[TexasPete]

With all due respect, this franchise sucks. It is a direct reflection of the people leading the wagon. If things were to dramatically improve I would love to pat them on the back.

I know what your saying in regard to the comparisons with Jackson and Riley. I just don't buy what your saying. When somebody is trying to make a point, like Gearon was, most people use analogies within a reasonable scope. Using the two guys with like 13 rings is a poor example. I'm tired of this whole conversation and hair splitting.

The bottom line is, unfortunately, its Gearon's team. I just despise the whole way this guy pisses in our ear and tells us its raining. If he wants to bring back Woodson, bring back Woodson. Just shut up about it and stop trying to win people over...there has been too much talk and not nearly enough winning. Until the ASG at least makes the playoffs, they need to shut up, and buck up. And don't expect anybody to take YOUR word that you know what your doing.

[AHF]

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I know what your saying in regard to the comparisons with Jackson and Riley. I just don't buy what your saying. When somebody is trying to make a point, like Gearon was, most people use analogies within a reasonable scope. Using the two guys with like 13 rings is a poor example. I'm tired of this whole conversation and hair splitting.

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If he was making an analogy between Jackson/Riley and Woodson that implied they were on a similar I would agree it would be insulting.

However, what Gearon said would be like telling Salim after he missed a game winner that "even MJ missed game winners" and that he should keep firing fearlessly when given the opportunity.

It doesn't mean that MJ=Salim. It means that even the best players miss game deciding shots (or in Gearon's case that even the best coaches see their record suffer when they are hit by serious injuries to the roster).

Why would you ever say to Salim that "even Jamal Crawford has missed game winners" simply because Crawford is a more realistic comparator for what Salim should hope to be over the entirety of his career? The point is that even the best fail at times and he shouldn't take it too badly. That doesn't get communicated effectively using Jamal Crawford or Terry Stotts as examples.

[TexasPete]

Giving him the benefit of the doubt on this issue there were a lot of another things in the article that proved where he and the ASG were in regard to Woodson/BK.

How about the comment where he said we hadn't drafted a Bowdler or Ed Gray either? He fails to mention that under the ASG we have been picking in the high lottery whereas the picks he talks about were well into the first round. There is plenty in that article to be concerned about, not just the Jax and Riley comments.

He also talked about nobody batting 1.000 as a GM. Bradley wondered if BK were any better than .250. This guys says nobody bats 1.000...as if BK had just missed one or two picks. His lack of intelligence as an owner is scary.

For all of those fans on here who don't believe he truly likes BK or Woodson that much and is keeping them because of the lawsuit...I disagree. Because he goes to great lengths to defend these guys, this is hardly an act. And the fact that he think BK has done a good job...were in deep crap.