This deserves a new thread...the Utah example.

[Guest Walter]

From Sothron

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What kills me is that I begged the Hawks over on realgm.com back then to take Deron because he literally took the Illinois team on his back that entire season and the tourney. He dominated that year and instead of taking him we took some backup forward. Insane.

What REALLY kills me is that Deron is leading his team in the playoffs while Marvin sits at home playing XBL because he already admitted he doesn't really care about basketball.

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Just before two years ago the year AFTER the retirement of Karl Malone and WITH Boozer and Okur Utah had 26 wins! That is the equivalent of us last year. TWENTY SIX WINS! They were horrible W-I-T-H Boozer and Okur!

They drafted Deron and went on to win 41 games the next year. That's a 15 game improvement in one year. Scoff? "Why, we won 13 games the year before we won 26. That's a 13 game improvement." It doesn't work that way! A 13 game improvement ain't [censored] when you're starting at nearly single digits! A 15 game improvement starting from 26 is very good. However, rebuilds can sputter and stall fast. So what did the Jazz do the next year (this year)?

THEY WON TEN MORE GAMES (51)!!! TEN MORE GAMES.

"But we had injuries." 1) Tough. 2) We wouldn't have won more than 4 games more with the season average of injuries. This team is simply not as talented as we would like to think and terribly flawed.

Utah was NO better than us WITHOUT Deron and with Okur, AK-47, Boozer than we were with MW, JS, JJ, JC, Harrington, ZaZa, Lue. Add Deron and they place on a remarkable climbing path to not only the playoffs but perhaps actual contention in 2 years. He makes each and every player that much better that the same team is LITERALLY TWICE AS GOOD (26 x 2 = 52 wins...close to 51) with him rather than without him in merely two years.

The "near misses" people want to sweep under the rug are HUGE! Deng is blowing up, so is Deron, Roy, Iggy...so has Paul. Some of these players don't yet have the talent to carry their team well into the playoffs, but ALL of these guys could, should and likely will. Not a single one of our lottery picks projects to do that. Not one. I love JS but I see him as a do everything else, 3rd option (Marion) on a good team.

Anyhow, back to the state of our rebuild. You only have to look at Utah's rebuild to see that ours is all but dead. TWO YEARS with the same players save Deron and they improved 25 games. We're flying high with 4 wins and a year to spare after $11 million spent (Speedy, AJ, and Lo) - they certainly didn't do that - and a 5th pick and high 2nd rd pick spent. Yikes our rebuild is in the crapper. We can add a top lottery player, $11 million in salary and we can't even see Utah from how far behind we've fallen.

Of course, there are those of you who would defend this unprecedented incompetence with rosey ASG rhetoric. What NBA do you follow? What team are you watching?

W

[cyman3]

keep in mind

in terms of COACHING

JERRY SLOAN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MIKE WOODSON

[Packfill]

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keep in mind

in terms of COACHING

JERRY SLOAN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MIKE WOODSON

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That right there shows how big of a problem the Hawks have. The ownership is f'ed up, which leads to the retention of a bad GM, who stands behind a bad coach.

[TroyMcClure]

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keep in mind

in terms of COACHING

JERRY SLOAN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MIKE WOODSON

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I've been saying that since I got here. I'm a big Jerry Sloan fan, and to be honest, the Jazz are the only real team that I've been watching since the late 90's. I watch a little Spurs, too.

Our team is flawed. but we could be in the playoffs. Woodson is that bad. For someone who played the game, he has a terrible feel for it. I've explained this time and again. He was a loser, a BIG one for his whole career. He would rather score 16 a game than play defense and win. Or, maybe he's too stupid. But hey, he's 6'5", he knows a lot about basketball, right?

Anyone watch the game last night? It was thrilling NBA entertainment. We should all take a road trip and see what that's like. B-Diddy choked hard, so did Biedrins. Missed free throws late in the game almost always bite you. What an effort by Fisher. I missed what was going on with his kid, but he got there late and basically won the game with his defense and a clutch 3. Okur is almost money from behind the line. Coaching won this game, though. Coaching and Williams.

There will always be a "yeah, but he's no Darren Williams" thing when dealing with Marvin. He will never measure up. That's the sad truth. I'm sorry, TP. He'll never be as good as the other Williams, at 20, 25, or 30. Even if he matched numbers wise, he will never lead. If the two played together, it would be glaringly obvious who is the leader and star.

[Guest Walter]

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keep in mind

in terms of COACHING

JERRY SLOAN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MIKE WOODSON

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By your argument they must have had an even worse team 2 years ago, before Deron than we did AFTER MW and JJ, for them to win but 26 games with Sloan as their coach. 26 wins is 26 wins.

BK wouldn't hire a coach that wasn't weak. A coach that wasn't weak wouldn't work under him. The ASG is just too poor, in chaos, and incompetent to hire such a coach. Our reputation is at an all time low. A Sloan-esque coach isn't coming here.

W

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Utah won 26 games. That is true.

But it's funny to see WHY they only won 26 games. Take a wild guess at what killed their season. You won't have to think hard.

Utah starting lineup at the beginning of that year:

PG - Carlos Arroyo ( but was hurt at the start of the season )

G - Gordon Giricek

F - AK 47

PF - Boozer

C - Jarron Collins

Main guys off the bench:

F/C - Okur

F - Matt Harpring

G - Raja Bell

G - Howard Eisley

G - Keith McLeod ( who took Arroyo's place at the start of the season )

Jazz start the season 4 - 1 ( LOL . . sound familiar ).

Actually, they start the season 6 - 1 ( something we should've done this year, if we'd taken care of business at the end of games, but oh well )

Uh oh, McLeod goes down with an injury. No big deal though . . at least you would think. He's just a pass-first PG with decent defensive skills. He'd go to the bench as soon as Arroyo came back anyway.

They look to be a soild team in November, posting an 8 - 5 record . . when . .

BAM !!!!

AK 47, the heart and soul of that team, goes down for the count in San Antonio.

The result? Utah loses 19 of their next 22 games.

Can't blame the horrible coaching skills of Jerry Sloan for the Utah freefall, can we? Nope. Because Sloan can coach his azz off. And even HE couldn't stop that team from going into a freefall that year.

What you can blame is Matt Harpring just not having the all-around skills that an AK 47 has. And when you take a player like that out of the lineup, it has grave consequences.

By the time Kirilenko comes back into the lineup in late January, the Jazz have gone from an 8 - 5 team that everyone in the league were surprised at, to a 15 - 29 team that is struggling just to keep their season somewhat alive.

Then, in mid-February, Boozer hurts his ankle down in Phoenix. He's done for the year now.

The result? Jazz go 9 - 23 without Boozer the rest of the year.

Plus AK 47 got hurt again late in March, breaking his wrist in Washington. He's done for the year after that.

THAT'S how a well coached Utah team, wins 26 games.

In all, Boozer and AK 47 play a total of 92 of 164 possible games between the 2. ( AK played 41 games . . Boozer played 51 ).

Raja Bell missed 19 games. Keith McLeod missed 29 games.

So between just those 4 players, who were key cogs in the Jazz rotation, you're talking about a total of 120 games that they missed.

Hard to overcome that, especially when you're a young team, like the Jazz were 2 years ago.

Arroyo got traded at mid season, just in case you were wondering.

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On the bright side, Harpring, Okur, and Giricek only miss 5 games. For Okur, the Boozer and AK injuries enabled him to take on more responsibility in the 1/2 court offense, and allowed him to develop.

For Harpring, it just solidified his position with the Jazz . . be a hired gun shooter at the SF position, that occasionally grabbed rebounds.

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So in reality Walter, the 04 - 05 Jazz were very much like the 06 - 07 Hawks. An incomplete team with talent throughout the lineup. Unfortunately, injuries derailed any progress that they could make as a team. That year did more to develop individual talent on the Jazz, than team chemistry that translated into wins.

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Deron's rookie year saw him bounce in and out of the starting lineup. But with the guards that Utah already had there in McLeod and Eisley, it helped Deron ease his way to the role of leader. Deron was nowhere near an impact guard last year. He was solid, and gave the Jazz an extra guard to depend on. And that helped them.

Most importantly, the experience that Okur got as being the "go-to-guy" when Boozer got hurt, enabled him to somewhat keep the ship afloat on offense. It also helped that Kirilenko didn't miss many extended stretches in games, and managed to play in 69 of them.

Final analysis: Deron wasn't the major reason why the Jazz went from 26 wins to 41 wins. But he probably is the major reason why the Jazz has gone from 41 wins, to potential NBA Finals contender. That, and the fact that Boozer has become the new "Karl Malone."

The inside-outside game of Deron and Carlos may be one of the best in the league.

[Guest Walter]

ONE!

Deron is the only lottery pick Utah has! Just goes to show you how little BK has gotten for his lottery-pick's worth or anything else. Boozer was a 35th pick. Okur a 38th pick. Kirilenko a 24th pick. We aren't in the same position, nor did we get there the same way. We gutted this team to get capital and they still have us trumped so bad we can't even see them.

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So in reality Walter, the 04 - 05 Jazz were very much like the 06 - 07 Hawks. An incomplete team with talent throughout the lineup.

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Except they had talent at every position but Pg and Sg a top 3 pick and were smart enough to have a franchise Pg coming to them. Hmm? Now there's a difference. I know they had injuries. They also had an impact pick and they used it perfectly. We couldn't have used our THREE impact picks any worse and we don't have any remaining without a miracle.

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Final analysis: Deron wasn't the major reason why the Jazz went from 26 wins to 41 wins. But he probably is the major reason why the Jazz has gone from 41 wins, to potential NBA Finals contender. That, and the fact that Boozer has become the new "Karl Malone."

The inside-outside game of Deron and Carlos may be one of the best in the league.

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I wonder for what MW is the major reason.

W

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Stop changing your argument Walt. I know you're good at that.

The fact is that without the injuries, that 04 - 05 Jazz team was well on their way to winning 35- 45 games that year. They were in no way, shape or form a sub 30 game team.

[Packfill]

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Stop changing your argument Walt. I know you're good at that.

The fact is that without the injuries, that 04 - 05 Jazz team was well on their way to winning 35- 45 games that year. They were in no way, shape or form a sub 30 game team.

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You are not focusing on the big picture. Utah may have one 40 games with a healthy squad back in 04-05 but they were not talented enough and lacked the leadership at the point guard position necessary to make the leap from an average team to a team that can win in the playoffs. Deron is essential to their team and his development has allowed Utah to become more then a perennial first round disappointment.

So even if the Hawks won 40 games this year they would still be missing the necessary elements to take their game to the next level. This is why people are critical of BK. He has built a team that doesn't have the right pieces to win in the playofffs. Now sure, not every team is going to win a championship and right now most Hawks fans would be happy with just making the playoffs, but from day one when BK blew-up the old SAR-JT team he said he was doing it so as to build the team the right way (i.e., turn the team into something more then a first round loser). Is building a fundamentally flawed team the right way?

Who wins in the playoffs you ask? Historically, teams with great big men (Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Malone, etc.), mega superstars (Jordan, Bird) or leaders who can manage and sometimes take over the game from the point guard position (Magic, Billups, Thomas).

[Guest Walter]

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Stop changing your argument Walt. I know you're good at that.

The fact is that without the injuries, that 04 - 05 Jazz team was well on their way to winning 35- 45 games that year. They were in no way, shape or form a sub 30 game team.

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I never disagreed that Utah had injuries. Seeing that the Jazz won 41 games WITH Deron, the suggestion that they were a 45 win team withOUT him is ludicrious. They MIGHT have won 30-35 games without the injuries but it's clear that Deron, while not an star his rookie season, played well his rookie season and gave them something they didn't have at Pg.

The argument, BTW, is how poorly BK built this team and what dire straights we're in. We don't have a top 3 pick to turn this around with unless a miracle happens. We don't have a coach. We're just headed towards lesser mediocrity. Seeing Utah's one lottery pick and our three wasted ones, that's precisely how you DON'T build a winner.

W