Paul Milsap is just better than Shelden Williams..

[AtLaS]

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Not true at all. It is harder for a rookie like Millsap to put numbers up on a good squad because he is always the 5th option.

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Kind of like when Diaw was here?

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He has zero plays called for him

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And Shelden does?

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When you look at Utah's options ahead of Millsap you don't wonder why they don't call his number. Boozer is a top 3 low post scorer right now in all of the NBA.

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EXACTLY! When you have a post presence like Boozer, and a Center like Okur to knock down threes, it opens up the floor TREMENDOUSLY, making it much easier to be on the receiving end of passes for layups, offensive rebounds and such. It also doesn't hurt to have D-Will as your PG.

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What you also miss is the defensive difference between Millsap and SW. Millsap is a tough and gritty defender. SW had trouble guarding any 4 he played all year.

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Believe what you want to believe..

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Millsap is a career role player. Ditto for Shelden. One was the 5th pick, the other went in round 2.

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I agree, but it doesn't mean Millsap is better. I'm not saying Shelden wasn't a HORRIBLE pick, because it was. I just think you're overreacting here. Millsap is averaging a whopping 5.6 and 3.5 in the playoffs.

[Diesel]

Would you get off of Marvin's nuts for a second and stick to the topic?

We're talking about Shelden here TP... Not your loverboy.

However, if we were talking about Marvin, I would say: SF is the easiest position in the game of Basketball.. It's not dependent on any other position... nor is it really dependent on coaching. IN short, it doesn't take 3 years and 50,000 excuses to play the Sf position and be productive. Moreover, Marvin's not being benched the way that Shelden was.. Marvin played 35 mpg rain, sleet, snow, or 5 fouls and 4 turnovers.

Back to Shelden... Do you have anything to offer?

I thought not!!

[Packfill]

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I think it comes down to one easy question.

Is it easier to be productive for a good team with a good coach or for a bad team with a Lousy coach??

When you figure it out, come on back!

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The classic chicken or the egg.

Everyone knows it is easier to pad stats on a losing team because team dymanics and winning aren't a concern.

[Diesel]

It's easier for who to pad stats on a bad teams... Guys like JJ and Smoove who have the ball in their hands most of the time or role players?

Go back over the season, how many times did we wish that we had better coaching so that more players could get the ball.

How much better did we play when JJ went out and the ball flowed more. I think I can find a Sekou article to jog your memory?

[TexasPete]

I just crushed you again D-Man. You way to easy. You have had your Gene Simmons tongue all over Sheldens nuts for 6 months. Your the crazy MF who compared him to the Mailman! That was the biggest testicle slurp in HS history.

Atlas, my point is simple. Yes, Millsap has better offensive numbers. But, I value defense. I love a guy who plays his ass off on defense. Millsap plays better defense than Shelden. Watch him. That is the true difference.

We can debate role players offensive numbers all day. Give me defense for my 5th option role player.

PS-Gutz/Bravo...I don't care how many shots Shelden blocked in the ACC...just FYI.

[Diesel]

Crushed where??

I asked 5 simple questions.

Like a B---- you didn't answer them.

That's your definition of "crush"...

I guess, laying down and taking a brutal beating and crying No mas is "Crushing" where you're from...

Sing No mas like Duran for me TP...

[Packfill]

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It's easier for who to pad stats on a bad teams... Guys like JJ and Smoove who have the ball in their hands most of the time or role players?

Go back over the season, how many times did we wish that we had better coaching so that more players could get the ball.

How much better did we play when JJ went out and the ball flowed more. I think I can find a Sekou article to jog your memory?

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So you have conceded that Sheldon is a role player?

There is no question the Hawks win more games with competent coaching and point guard play. No question. the Hawks do not have either.

That being said, playoff teams do not hand out minutes to a second round rookie. They are earned. How many plays you think were called for Milsap?

[TroyMcClure]

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It also doesn't hurt to have D-Will as your PG.

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AtLaS, don't perpetuate the hyphen nickname thing. It's really lame. D-Will? lol!

Oh, I just want to say I haven't read all of this, but TP is right. The unquantifiable component of defense is the true issue when judging these players against one another.

[TexasPete]

Your questions applied to Marvin as much as anybody but you ignore that fact. You conjure up stupid questions and then forget that the guy who you rail against daily may have the same issues. Except, they are only issues when they apply to Shelden, right? Your "points" don't apply to others, just your guy. LOL.

The truth is you don't know jack about the game. So don't get in over your head. Find others like yourself and chat away.

[gsuteke]

Boris Diaw is an excellent analogy to use for this thread.

[TexasPete]

Defense is all but forgotten by just about everybody. The league has deteriorated into a situation where the scorers are worshipped like heroes. The dirty little secret is that teams like San Antone win because they play together and they play defense. Same with Detroit.

Guys like Millsap are role players that come in and do the dirty work on defense and on the glass. They hustle, grab loose balls, do the little things.

I have watched SW play defense and he can't stop anyone off the dribble. That's something Diesel doesn't notice. When your PF allows penetration you have a problem. Millsap plays better defense. His offense is better but his price of admission is tied to defense. I think BK thought SW would provide the same deal. No such luck.

[TexasPete]

Boris is totally different because he plays an entirely different position on the Suns. They use his talents the way they were designed to be used. EVERY player in the league has a calling card...D'Antoni saw Diaw's skill set and decided to utilize him 360 degrees different than Woodson. Lucky for Diaw.

It is not a case of good team vs. bad team. It is a case of using a player to his highest and best use. Diaw made a lousy lawyer...but he is one helluva doctor.

Why were the Suns trying so hard to get Diaw from the time he was still on the board the night he got drafted? Because they suspected that he would fit in their system. They were right, turns out.

[TroyMcClure]

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I think BK thought SW would provide the same deal. No such luck.

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I think, unless you are just headstrong, you tend to follow the lead of your coach. You know how I feel, Shelden could at least be Hendu for us... with another coach. Still, not even Jerry Sloan could make Shelden tough.

[TexasPete]

Troy, thats the key. SW was drafted to be tough and he is the antithesis of tough. He doesn't protect the paint, he opens up the paint to all comers. Same with ZAZA.

The least SW could do was to knock some guys on their ass to discourage penetration...he is soft as a babys ass.

[gsuteke]

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Boris is totally different because he plays an entirely different position on the Suns. They use his talents the way they were designed to be used. EVERY player in the league has a calling card...D'Antoni saw Diaw's skill set and decided to utilize him 360 degrees different than Woodson. Lucky for Diaw.

It is not a case of good team vs. bad team. It is a case of using a player to his highest and best use. Diaw made a lousy lawyer...but he is one helluva doctor.

Why were the Suns trying so hard to get Diaw from the time he was still on the board the night he got drafted? Because they suspected that he would fit in their system. They were right, turns out.

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which is in turn why you can't expect to take player X and take him off of team A to place him on team B and expect the exact same production.

that is precisely the reason why we have such difficulty with "we drafted the wrong guy, look what he's doing now" threads. you can't come to a definitive conclusion in most cases due to the ambiguity involved.

[gsuteke]

that is a funny quote from Bernie Mullen.

[TexasPete]

But, would you agree that almost all of our draft picks turn out wrong? Chill, Shelden, Marvin...we use Diaw wrong and he blooms someplace else. Something is badly broken here...player selection, coaching, and/or a strong combination of the two.

[gsuteke]

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But, would you agree that almost all of our draft picks turn out wrong? Chill, Shelden, Marvin...we use Diaw wrong and he blooms someplace else. Something is badly broken here...player selection, coaching, and/or a strong combination of the two.

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I would agree that in hindsight better players were picked after they came off the board.

[Guest Walter]

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Everyone knows it is easier to pad stats on a losing team because team dymanics and winning aren't a concern.

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It's also easier to pad your stats in the weaker EC.

No doubt Utah has a better coach. However, everybody on Utah's team plays under Sloan just like everyone here plays under Woody. He still has to perform comperable to his team counterparts to earn minutes, opportunities, AND productivity. We can all assume that Utah's players are better than ours, their predominantly WC competition is harder, and Millsap manages to produce in harder earned opportunity more for them than SW for us.

Consider also that Millsap wasn't as "NBA-ready" having played in a smaller conference. Millsap's better.

W

[Diesel]

I think that most of the NBA are role players.

I think that there are very few superstar players.

So, yes, Shelden, Smoove, Marvin, Chillz, and the rest all role players.

JJ is a role player also, he has just been upgraded to Allstar.

But who knows, maybe being on a pathetic team makes him look better...

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That being said, playoff teams do not hand out minutes to a second round rookie. They are earned.

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If this isn't the biggest bunch of garbage...

Let's see... Milsap is playing 13.8 mpg.. WHo exactly is he beating out for those minutes... I mean, the competition must be fierce between HIM and Jarron Collins or him and Araujo? Did you even have a point? I mean, give me a uniform and I can beat out those two for minutes...

OMG.. Milsap just beat out Collins for minutes!!!

Wait a minute, do they play the same position?

I guess that means that Gordon Giricek is a stud too?