Paul Milsap is just better than Shelden Williams..

[TexasPete]

Isn't the GM's job to have "foresight"? The problem is that many on this board had foresight. Many national media members had foresight...it seems that foresight has been a piece of cake for everybody but our own GM. Foresight is not his gig.

He is definitely a hindsighter.

[Diesel]

TP, it just makes me laugh to see you start a thread about Shelden vs. Milsap and then when questioned directly about what you say you BELIEVE, you bring up Marvin to try to protect you??

I thought you were the Marvin Protector... It looks like Marvin is protecting you??

Marvin has the sheild of inability to protect TP from being crushed by straightforward questions.

Unfortunately, there's no protection for you TP... I would rather REACH and pick a needed Big at 5, than to take our 6th SF at #2...

Tune in again to see if Marvin can save TP from the thread that he started and the 5 questions which TP Bitc--d out on...

[Guest Walter]

...me.

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But, would you agree that almost all of our draft picks turn out wrong? Chill, Shelden, Marvin...we use Diaw wrong and he blooms someplace else. Something is badly broken here...player selection, coaching, and/or a strong combination of the two.

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I would agree that in hindsight better players were picked after they came off the board.

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This wasn't hindsight. This was obvious, foresight. No other GM would have picked SW here, for this team. NOT ONE! I can't say that about MW, although that was a terrible mistake. I believe I CAN say that about Childress over Deng ad Iggy. Just look at the mocks. None within 2 weeks of the draft had JC above both Deng and Iggy.

All 3 picks were the WORST OUT OF 3 remotely possible draft possibilities and at least 2 of them were obviously wrong given any foresight. Only MW could have been questionably the "right pick' (but I believed strongly and correctly at the time wrongly so and for all the wrong reasons).

It doesn't take hindsight to see SW's very limited talent and poor shot blockign translation to the NBA game. To suggest otherwise is just another captain ASG "[censored] you" to Atlanta Hawk fans delivered by GSUteke.

W

[gsuteke]

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Isn't the GM's job to have "foresight"? The problem is that many on this board had foresight. Many national media members had foresight...it seems that foresight has been a piece of cake for everybody but our own GM. Foresight is not his gig.

He is definitely a hindsighter.

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I can't recall ever saying something nice about Billy Knight.

That being said as a Hawks fan I reserve the right to hope every single player on the team does well and to actively root for them to be successful.

[Guest Walter]

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it seems that foresight has been a piece of cake for everybody but our own GM. Foresight is not his gig.

He is definitely a hindsighter.

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He's too arrogant to use hindsight. His hindsight is likely as bat-blind as his foresight. I wonder how that no tryout, talent sonar is going to work this year.

W

[Johnnybravo4]

Lion-O to sword.... "Give me hindsight beyond hindsight!"

[TexasPete]

You have not posted even one reason why your boy SW is better than Millsap. Not one. I've been waiting, the ball is in your court. I have talked about Millsaps better offensive numbers (documented) and defensive output.

YOU??? All you have done is list 4 excuses why SW isn't more productive. Your so dense you don't know when the ball is in your own damn court.

And FYI, another Diesel lie, Millsap played 18.7 minutes a game, not 13. Millsap played 40% of all minutes as a rookie. His numbers are better than Shelden's right? You did check it out right? You have a bad habit of distorting the truth to make your own position sound more credible.

[exodus]

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Boris Diaw is an excellent analogy to use for this thread.

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Boris is averaging 7/3 in the playoffs. He averaged 9/4 during the season. Not impressed.

Next year he will be making $9 million.

[Diesel]

One reason, do you want a statistical reason or something else.

Statistically... Let's compare both players when they get over 25 mpg? Milsap

Shelden Williams

First off, comparing 25+ mpg, Milsap: 15 ppg, 10.3 rpg. Shelden: 11 ppg, 10.5 rpg.

Second, comparing how each man ended the season:

Shelden last 5: 15.6 ppg, 11.2 rpg 36.2 mpg.

Milsap last 5: 5.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg. 14.4 mpg.

The bottom line is this...

If Shelden plays consistent minutes, above 25+, he's better than Milsap. If you play any player in a bad system, where they don't have plays run for them, with bad coaching and you play them 5 mpg for several games... of course they will not produce... BUt as Shelden plays more and consistently, he's more product.. as the end of the year and the beginning of the season shows. If Shelden is riding the bench most of the game and gets the last 3 minutes of the half, don't expect him to produce much.

[Diesel]

Where's my bi---??

Why hasn't my bi--- answered any questions yet?

Man up TP??

Grow a set?

Do I honestly have to openly question your manhood on this public forum?

Cause if you like, instead of being TP, you can be known as BI for the rest of your days here?

Man up!

[TexasPete]

Lets not slice the data to give your scrub the edge. Lets use the current data based on the SEASON. Not, my guy when he plays 25 minutes on the first 3 days of every month.

Don't run and hide. Just look at the season numbers. The good news for you is SW lousy defense is hard to quantify.

SW's numbers came up against the scrubs late in the year. I give him nothing for that as I give Marvin nothing for playing against scrub teams who had shut it down.

Just look at the season. My guy went in the 2nd round...your guy went 5th. By your own Marvin "logic" it matters where a guy is picked right?

honestly, your about as easy to debate as anybody. Your lack of logic always does you in, not to mention you don't understand basketball. I'll bet you haven't played at all? You just stumbled on this site and had to join in. It could have been about art or something, right?

In fact, I will bet you $1,000 on a game of one on one. We will play to 21 by ones. Troy will get the gym. I'm 46 tomorrow. You in...[censored]?

[Packfill]

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One reason, do you want a statistical reason or something else.

Statistically... Let's compare both players when they get over 25 mpg?

Milsap

Shelden Williams

First off, comparing 25+ mpg, Milsap: 15 ppg, 10.3 rpg. Shelden: 11 ppg, 10.5 rpg.

Second, comparing how each man ended the season:

Shelden last 5: 15.6 ppg, 11.2 rpg 36.2 mpg.

Milsap last 5: 5.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg. 14.4 mpg.

The bottom line is this...

If Shelden plays consistent minutes, above 25+, he's better than Milsap. If you play any player in a bad system, where they don't have plays run for them, with bad coaching and you play them 5 mpg for several games... of course they will not produce... BUt as Shelden plays more and consistently, he's more product.. as the end of the year and the beginning of the season shows. If Shelden is riding the bench most of the game and gets the last 3 minutes of the half, don't expect him to produce much.

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Those statistics show that Milsap is better statistically. And again, do you really think Utah is running plays for Milsap when they have Boozer, Okur, Williams and the like ahead of him?

[Guest Walter]

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First off, comparing 25+ mpg, Milsap: 15 ppg, 10.3 rpg. Shelden: 11 ppg, 10.5 rpg.

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If Shelden plays consistent minutes, above 25+, he's better than Milsap.

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...your stats contradict your own conclusion. Looks like Milsap punks SW in 25+ MPG games.

[TexasPete]

I was thinking about Diaw last game. You think the Suns would do that contract over? Diaw is certainly a decent pro but a GM should NEVER give out the big money based on one season, or stretch. Look in the past at all the guys who had a huge year and got big money...and then went back down.

Diaw just kind of bothers me. He is a little light in the competition department or something.

He is certainly not worth the cash the Suns are paying and nobody else wants that lousy deal so they are stuck. In some ways, the Diaw deal hurt the hell out of the Suns.

[TexasPete]

He is the only guy I know who punks himself with the numbers and then calls me out.

You can't make this stuff up.

[AHF]

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Boris Diaw is an excellent analogy to use for this thread.

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Boris is averaging 7/3 in the playoffs. He averaged 9/4 during the season. Not impressed.

Next year he will be making $9 million.

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Also, Boris has only excelled playing in the post and that takes a pretty unique team to use him there. Most teams can't afford his weak interior play at the PF or C positions. I think Phoenix overestimated his value to other teams by a long-shot when they resigned him.

Can you imagine how much they are going to regret paying Banks and Diaw like $13M/year while they are trying to unload Marion because they don't want to pay the luxury tax?

[Packfill]

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Boris Diaw is an excellent analogy to use for this thread.

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Boris is averaging 7/3 in the playoffs. He averaged 9/4 during the season. Not impressed.

Next year he will be making $9 million.

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Also, Boris has only excelled playing in the post and that takes a pretty unique team to use him there. Most teams can't afford his weak interior play at the PF or C positions. I think Phoenix overestimated his value to other teams by a long-shot when they resigned him.

Can you imagine how much they are going to regret paying Banks and Diaw like $13M/year while they are trying to unload Marion because they don't want to pay the luxury tax?

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About as much as the Hawks regret paying $13 million to a bunch of back-up point guards?

[AHF]

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Boris Diaw is an excellent analogy to use for this thread.

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Boris is averaging 7/3 in the playoffs. He averaged 9/4 during the season. Not impressed.

Next year he will be making $9 million.

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Also, Boris has only excelled playing in the post and that takes a pretty unique team to use him there. Most teams can't afford his weak interior play at the PF or C positions. I think Phoenix overestimated his value to other teams by a long-shot when they resigned him.

Can you imagine how much they are going to regret paying Banks and Diaw like $13M/year while they are trying to unload Marion because they don't want to pay the luxury tax?

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About as much as the Hawks regret paying $13 million to a bunch of back-up point guards?

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That total money under those contracts are not very comparable (i.e., Lue's contract is for one more year; AJ's for two; and Claxton's isn't even as long as Banks or Diaw) and Marion is better than anything we could spend that money on (i.e., greater opportunity cost if you have to give up Marion compared on passing on FAs the Hawks could sign).

[Seano]

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Now, if Woody had Milsap I will say with 100% certainty that he would of been on the pine all year and not seen the light of day. Because Woody would of looked at Milsap as not ready. He would be playing Woody games, making the kid bide his time until he got a chance.

Jerry Sloan is just one of the best. The difference between Sloan and Woody is as big as the Grand Canyon. If a guy shows in practice, he plays in the games. Period. What sucks as a Hawks fan is that we wasted our 5th pick on another bench guy with limited upside. A 2nd round pick is already proving a better player.

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Well, that's kind of the crux of it...and to me it's what makes it impossible at this point to try and determine which is the better player. It comes down to much more than the individual player, but instead is greatly reliant on other factors such as his coaching, the stability of his team and environment as well as the support structure he's given. So you have to think of it kind of in hypotheticals, as in... well, what if the roles were reversed? What if this was some crazy alternate universe in which we'd drafted Milsap, and the Jazzercise had grabbed Shelden? What would have been the result then, and who would be considered the 'better' player (something FAR too early to be determined at this early juncture IMO, but just playing along....).

It's impossible to say, but as you pointed out- there is no doubt that Milsap benefits greatly from having a wise and patient teacher like Jerry Sloan as his coach. Whereas Shelden, he doesn't seem to get that benefit from Mike Woodson. For one thing Woody is half the coach that Sloan is, and for another you've got Woody very often leaving a healthy Shelden at the end of the bench basically to rot for long stretches of games, and THEN publicly dissing his player and questioning his effort and ability in the newspapers. I mean what the hell is up with that?

Sloan will stick with his young players no matter how badly they're struggling (and Milsap did have some mighty struggles at times this season), so long as he believes in them. But Woody? Would anyone say that about him? And the reality is that most young players are going to look clueless and struggle at times- sometimes terribly. So you either believe in them, stick with them, ride out their struggles and hope they learn from the experience- or you don't. And Woody generally doesn't. He gives Marvin a lot of leeway, but what other choice does he have? I mean that's a #2 pick right there, you can't exactly leave him buried on the bench without getting crucified.

I agree that it's a real shame that we blew a #5 pick on a guy who seems to bring much of the same type of style and abilities that a 2nd rounder could have brought us, but once again that's the genius of BK at work.

But, I still hold out hope that Shell can get it together and become a player....and reiterate once again that it is WAY too early to be passing judgements on these guys as to which might be better than the other.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Solomon Jones could be better than Shelden and Milsap combined but we'd never know because of our coach.

BK and Woody haven't been a good combo. BK has been drafting players to run and Woody has been making him look bad with his half court philosophy

At the same time, BK has been making Woody look bad by not providing a PG or C.

That's why we cannot afford to screw up the 11th pick and not get a 1 or 5. And seeing that the 5s will probably stink at that point, it better be a PG.