This is getting Ridiculous

[exodus]

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so after a lackluster showing in the orlando workouts, critt no longer has "upside"???

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RIF. First i didn't say he didn't have upside. Secondly upside is something that is PERCEIVED. Since he didn't outshine Conley or Law at the combine that means he lost ground to them. it isn't that complicated.

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durant is different because he produced? and critt did not?

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Exactly. Durant is the consensus number two because he was the runaway CPOY as a freshman. Crit sucked in post season and struggled against good teams during the regular season.

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monta ellis had the worst workout two years ago, but golden state obviously still saw the "upside" in him.

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Monta was sick at the time, but don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

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go read a great article about the importance or lack thereof of nba pre draft workouts on draftexpress

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I did and it was a joke, as i already showed in another thread.

Paul barely got beat by May and Simien in the lane agility tests (which seems to be a bogus test) and the author makes a big deal about it. he fails to mention that Paul beat them both badly in the sprint.

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the question is can they play basketball

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The combine doesn't measure skills. That is an entirely different discussion.

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for all of conley's strengths in the workout you mentioned you conveniently left out his deficiencies such as being able to hit a 16 ft jump shot and that's with nobody in his face,

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Conley averaged 18 ppg in the sweet 16 shooting 50%. Show me 4 comparable games from Crit against good teams.

*crickets*

[pimp]

Foster played in 75 games and only started 43 and only played 23mpg

JO missed 13 games , so Foster only started about 30 games that JO played in.

The real reason Foster got most his starts was because starting sf Danny Granger got injured, and missed 25 games.

Which forced Harrington to sf, Jo to pf and Foster to C

FROM 82GAMES.com

The pacer most common lineup was

pg Tinsley

sg Dunleavy

sf Granger

pf Murphy

C Oneal

JO might have played C the entire game, but he did play there more than pf.

[atlien110]

snore....... did you finish?

ok let's start with conley. let me get this straight, so everything @ the combine matters ONLY when it strengthens your argument. the guy couldnt' hit the broad side of a barn in a private workout. defend it all you want. but guy can't shoot. next.

you mention his stellar run through the ncaa's. oh ya he sure did run up against some powerhouses up to the sweet 16 in central conn, xavier, tenn. in those games he went against some of the premier nba prospects in the land such as 5'7 drew lavender.. ok that wasn't funny it must've been tristan blackwood and central conn in which he only scored 5 points, 2 assists and 2 to's... fine fine fine. his best game came against tenn. who doesn't play a lick of defense.

critt threw up 13&11 against unc and had 16&10 vs boston college. hmmmmm seems like he did ok against two pretty good teams... i'd like to think conley had a much better team than critt which might've helped his performance in the tournament.

*Paul barely got beat by May and Simien in the lane agility tests (which seems to be a bogus test) and the author makes a big deal about it. he fails to mention that Paul beat them both badly in the sprint.*

of course its bogus if it goes against your argument. um may and simien are big ass pf's. i would hope paul beat both of them.

bottom line you can't put much stock in the pre draft workouts. agility drills, sprints, lifting weights (ahem durant = 0), vertical... who was it that i read had a ugly vertical in orlando i think it was iggy. did that mean he couldnt' jump out of the gym? absolutely not. so stop trying to make a point where there isnt' one. the workouts are a joke and everyone seems to know as much except for you.

[AHF]

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Foster played in 75 games and only started 43 and only played 23mpg

JO missed 13 games , so Foster only started about 30 games that JO played in.

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Creative assumption but not accurate. Foster and ONeal started together 37 times. Foster started at center in all those games.

ONeal started at most 32 games at center last season. The Pacers only play ONeal at center out of necessity and he didn't start at center in a majority of the games last season.

[exodus]

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the guy couldnt' hit the broad side of a barn in a private workout

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The combine measures athleticism. Conley was very athletic. Is it really that hard to understand.

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the guy couldnt' hit the broad side of a barn in a private workout.

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Thanks for that insight.

Everyone knows his shot is his weakness. Feel free to list all his other weaknesses.

*crickets*

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of course its bogus if it goes against your argument. um may and simien are big ass pf's. i would hope paul beat both of them.

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The lane agility test has many examples of bogus results. Do you think Marty A , an underdeveloped 7'3" center, is faster than Jeff Green?

*crickets*

Marty A beat him in the lane agility test. In the sprint? No.

I have seen nothing to indicate that the lane agility test is an accurate measure of anything.

The sprint is pretty straightforward, as are the bench and vertical.

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bottom line you can't put much stock in the pre draft workouts.

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Sure the NBA does the combine for no reason than to fight boredom. Speed (Ford, Parker, Iverson, Wade), jumping ability (Josh Smith, Jordan, Vince, Amare) and strength (Ben Wallace, Okafor) don't matter at all in baskeball.

[AHF]

My biggest problem with the combine is that the tests they use don't seem to translate very well into performance. You have already described the problems with the lane agility drill. There may simply not be many good objective tests for what goes on in a game.

The measurements mean a lot for some players, though.

[Sothron]

I don't put too much stock into them except for IMO the most important measurements for wingspan, vertical and standing reach for big men. Deron didn't have amazing workout numbers but there was no doubt in my mind he was the best all around PG in that draft. And afer watching him almost take his team to the Finals I don't think anyone can seriously disagree with me on that.

[exodus]

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My biggest problem with the combine is that the tests they use don't seem to translate very well into performance

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That is because the athletic tests don't measure skills, brains, heart, etc. i believe Joey Graham tested as the best athlete in his draft but just can't play. the reason is that he isn't smart or skilled.

All the tests except the lane agility drill measure what they are supposed to measure. Would Josh Smith be leading the league in blocks if he had a 32" vertical?

[AHF]

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My biggest problem with the combine is that the tests they use don't seem to translate very well into performance

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That is because the athletic tests don't measure skills, brains, heart, etc. i believe Joey Graham tested as the best athlete in his draft but just can't play. the reason is that he isn't smart or skilled.

All the tests except the lane agility drill measure what they are supposed to measure. Would Josh Smith be leading the league in blocks if he had a 32" vertical?

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Clearly not. However, not many guys with huge verticals block the kinds of shots he does. That is more about his skill and timing than vertical.

That is all I am saying. Take it for what it is worth but what you see in games and even skill drills is worth more than number of pushups, etc.

[atlien110]

my bad, i referenced barn in the wrong context.

arguing with exodus is like talking to the broadside of a barn.

[exodus]

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My biggest problem with the combine is that the tests they use don't seem to translate very well into performance

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That is because the athletic tests don't measure skills, brains, heart, etc. i believe Joey Graham tested as the best athlete in his draft but just can't play. the reason is that he isn't smart or skilled.

All the tests except the lane agility drill measure what they are supposed to measure. Would Josh Smith be leading the league in blocks if he had a 32" vertical?

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Clearly not. However, not many guys with huge verticals block the kinds of shots he does. That is more about his skill and timing than vertical.

That is all I am saying. Take it for what it is worth but what you see in games and even skill drills is worth more than number of pushups, etc.

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That is true but when you are trying to project a player from college to the pros athleticism matters. Ask Morrison. I certainly thought he would do better than he did this past season.

If josh didn't have a 40" vertical his skill and timing for blocking shots wouldn't amount to a hill of beans.

[pimp]

I gave u the reason why Foster got most of his starts.

Danny Granger's injury.When Granger was heathly, JO started

at Center.They may play him there because they have no choice, but you can say the same thing about Bosh.Bosh has rsho and garbo

These guys may be natural pf's, but in the east they can play center and do play center.

If JO played for the Hawks, he would be our center.

[AHF]

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I gave u the reason why Foster got most of his starts.

Danny Granger's injury.When Granger was heathly, JO started

at Center.

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Granger played in every single one of the games that Foster started as far as I can tell. I can't even find one start from Foster where Granger didn't play. He also played significant minutes every one of them.

Am I missing something?

[TroyMcClure]

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That is true but when you are trying to project a player from college to the pros athleticism matters. Ask Morrison. I certainly thought he would do better than he did this past season.

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Why? He never played ANY defense. Watch how he hunch- bounces around the court calling for the ball. That's all he does! There are many things that go with playing basketball besides being the "go to guy". Unfortunately for him, he doesn't know what those things are. I viewed him as one of the worst and most overrated players in history. As a white man, his selection that high embarrassed me. He gives no effort and constantly whines for the ball. The sad part is, I really think he thinks he is trying. I don't know what MJ is thinking, but I will say that I might let BK pick ahead of him. I know this is a little off tangent, but I can't stand that guy. Notice how many steps it takes for Morrison to get going? The court is not long enough for him to hit top speed! There's his athleticism... zero.

[exodus]

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He never played ANY defense.

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But he lit it up in college offensively. In the pros he struggled badly and a lack of athleticism is the most likely cause. And that is why the combine matters.

Just like Shelden with his short 8'8" standing reach. Once i found that out i wanted nothing to do with him at 5. However if his standing reach had been 9'1" i would have been fine with picking him at 5.

[Diesel]

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Thanks for that insight.

Everyone knows his shot is his weakness. Feel free to list all his other weaknesses.

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This is pure comedy. You mean to tell me, we see his weakness, we know his weakness, his weakness is in a place where our team is the weakest but because we know he can't shoot it should mean nothing???

Job interview with NASA...

Human Resources agent: "Mr. Exodus, I see here that you graduated from High School with a 2.1 GPA and you have never taken a math higher than Algebra. You have no College Degree and in fact, you have spent the last 10 years of your life working at a 7-11. Your resume also shows that you have no experience in Astrophysics and in fact, you've never taken physics. Why did you apply for the astrophysicist's position?"

Exodus: "Well, you knew I was weak in Physics when I applied. However, I am a very good people person and you can use the guys on hawksquawk.com as references and they will tell you that I'm a very good speller! Can we talk salary now?"

Dude... We are the worst 3 pt shooting team in the league. Our offense would suffer with a PG who can't shoot.. Especially if we picked him 3rd instead of true talent. That red sign you see is not a suggestion sign.. It's a stop sign!!!

[exodus]

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We are the worst 3 pt shooting team in the league.

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How much time did JJ, Lue, Childress, and Salim miss genius? You do realize that they are the best three point shooters we have. If they miss time it kills our 3 pt shooting. No way around it regardless of who our pg is.

JJ, Lue, Childress and Salim missed 99 games combined.

Ever since Marvin was picked you have bellyached about how we don't have a pg to push the ball up the floor on the break, break down the defense in the half court, set other guys up for easy shots, handle ball pressure, get to the rim and the line, etc. Conley can do all those things and play D. His only weakness is his shot.

A big reason we struggle from 3 is because we don't have people taking it to the basket enough. That collapses the defense and leads to wide open looks from 3. Conley can do that all day long.

For two seasons we have endured your constant whining about not having Paul. Over and over we had to listen you talk about how great a Paul/JJ backcourt would have been. However Paul only shot 28% from 3 his rookie year so i guess he really wouldn't have been any value to us at all.

[Diesel]

The thing is this...

We're talking about the % and not the total # of 3s... We're the worst 3 pt shooting team (Period). Them missing 30% of the season shouldn't really change the fact of us having the worst 3 pt % in the league. They still played 70% of the season. For example... Milwaukee was just as injured as us. Their best 3 pt shooters (Redd, Williams, Villanueva, and ilyasova) missed a total of 102 games and they finished 13th in 3 pt shooting %....

You don't fix a shooting problem by adding a non-shooter]

[exodus]

When the Hawks were shooting lights out from 3 in the 05-06 season i didn't hear you complaining. In fact when i said there is no way the Hawks could sustain 50% shooting from 3 here is what you said.

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Why do you say this and believe it?

Are there gnomes that come along and stop teams from sustaining 50%+ from 3? Does D. Stern send a message to the refs to blow the whistle on teams shooting 50% from three.

I think you meant that NO team has ever shot 50% from 3... That is to state that it has not be done before.

However, you start off by talking about the quality of three point shooters and then you talk about how it's impossible for them to maintain that level even though they are there now...

In essence, your argument has very little basis as it relates to these Hawks. It's like saying NO team can go undefeated in the NFL. Or NO player can hit .400 in baseball. Or NO Baseball player can hit more than 61 homeruns in a season. That is Absolute BS. (you gotta love the pun there).

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click

So in 18 months you have gone from saying the Hawks can shoot 50% from 3 consistently to saying they are the worst 3 pt shooting team in the league.

Classic Diesel logic.

[Diesel]

Then we should have never gotten rid of Al Harrington??

I mean, that's really the only change that has happened since then and Now.

BY THE WAY..

Try to stay on subject??!!?

But since you want to talk about then and now instead of what's better for our future... I will go there for 1 second.

You miss Al.

I mean, you say that we lack somebody scoring in the post. AL had Lue and Ivey throwing him passes... He didn't even have a Speedy or an AJ... Not even Conley.

So what you're saying is our collapse in becoming the worst 3pt shooting team AND the worst FG% team in the league is THE LOSS OF AL HARRINGTON ....

Thanks for that timely blast to the past Exodus. Again, you have no point!

Your second is over!!