What's our worst case scenario?

[Lascar78]

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They're no perfect solution, but there's one legit center in hawes that's available. I would love to see the hawks find a smart way to come out with conley / hawes and possibly one more asset.

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This is what I'm saying. Just being 7'0 feet instead of 6'10 doesn't necessarily make you more of a legit Center. Horford rebounds better than Hawes and blocks more shots, he's more athletic and he's stronger. So I still say Horford is a better prospect at PF or at C than Hawes.

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Horford is a better prospect, but he will never be a real center. Yes it's more than height alone, but it's easy to tell. Horford at 6'10 will never be a C. Yi at 7 feet will never be a C. Hawes at 7 feet is a C.

We need to stop drafting players with the intent of playing them out of position. Let's start doing what real teams do. When you use a really high pick on a player, you either have room for him to play at his natural position, or you make it fast.

We already need to trade one of our young forwards as is. If you think Yi or Horford have talent you can't miss on, it's time to move about 2 of our young forwards. No other team but us drafts guys so high to play out of position or to be backups at best.

[AtLaS]

Detroit and Chicago are also good examples.

[exodus]

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Golden State just took down a Mavs team in the playoffs that had been to the Finals the year before and that had won over 60 games during the regular season.

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GS has Biedrins who is a legit center. Al was a joke that series on both ends.

The main reason they won is that they had a dominant pg. We have Speedy/Aj/Lue. And winning a first round series isn't a great indicator of success.

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And whether or not you want to try and ignore the fact that the Suns were succesful with a 6'8 PF and a 6'9 C, the fact remains - the Suns WERE succesful with a 6'8 PF and a 6'9 C.

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Both players were multiple All-Stars playing with the MVP. And they are still waiting on their first Finals appearance.

[exodus]

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Detroit and Chicago are also good examples.

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Who do we have that compares to the Wallaces or PJ?

[vdunkndunk]

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Shelden's standing reach was 3 inches less than Horford's and he was

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And Horfords standing reach is 4.5" less than Howard, 3" less than Okafor, 1" less than Marvin for chrissakes.

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Howard and Okafor are two of the premier young big men in the league. Those guys are a tough matchup for anyone. But even so, Horford has something that a lot of other centers don't have: The quickness and athleticism to stay with them.

Not many guys in the league, true center or not, will have both the size and athleticism to matchup with someone like Dwight Howard. Horford doesn't have the size, but he's not pitifully undersized either - and he does have the quickness.

In other words, I'm convinced that Horford would matchup with either of those a lot better than anyone else we could come away with in this draft, and a lot better than many of the starting centers in the NBA right now. Plus Horford's quickness, ballhandling, and perimeter game would draw them away from the basket and allow Horford or others to attack the basket off the dribble.

Not only that, but if, say, Okafur is guarding Horford, that leaves Primo Brezec trying to guard Josh Smith. Not a good matchup for Primo, right? It's going to be hard for most frontcourts to stay with both of those guys.

[exodus]

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Not only that, but if, say, Okafur is guarding Horford, that leaves Primo Brezec trying to guard Josh Smith

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Okafor and Brezic would be getting layups against us as usual.

[AtLaS]

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Who do we have that compares to the Wallaces or PJ?

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So now you're making excuses, not surprising..

This is what you said:

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"So give me some examples of teams that were successful with undersized players at the 4/5 who didn't have the MVP playing the point."

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And Ben Wallaces defense has been overrated for years, he's a very average man defender.

[vdunkndunk]

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Not only that, but if, say, Okafur is guarding Horford, that leaves Primo Brezec trying to guard Josh Smith

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Okafor and Brezic would be getting layups against us as usual.

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Brezec doesn't get layups on anyone. He's a jumpshooter.

Anyway....When you think Horford, think Carlos Boozer. Omeka Okafur is a little bigger than Boozer, but will he necesssarily get the best of that matchup? Who would you rather have on your team? I mean, did anyone here watch Boozer get the better of matchups with Yao Ming?

It's definitely not impossible to play good basketball with a slightly undersized but extremely strong, quick, and athletic frontline.

[exodus]

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Who do we have that compares to the Wallaces or PJ?

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So now you're making excuses, not surprising..

And you are trying to say that Smith/Horford are as big as the Wallaces or PJ? Rasheed is 6'11" with long arms. PJ is also 6'11". Ben is bigger and much stronger than Smith/Horford.

There is no comparison. I guess 6'11" might be undersized in your book but not mine.

[exodus]

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When you think Horford, think Carlos Boozer.

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Boozer is over 260 and has a 9'1" standing reach. And he plays the 4.

[AtLaS]

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Rasheed is 6'11" with long arms.

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So now you're making arguments by using assumptions? Good one.

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PJ is also 6'11".

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PJ Brown only plays 20 minutes per game. Tyrus Thomas (undersized) was his primary backup during the 2nd half of the season.

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Ben is bigger and much stronger than Smith/Horford.

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He's 3 inches shorter than both, and he's such a liability on offense that Horford's offense would make up for it.

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I guess 6'11" might be undersized in your book but not mine.

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Didn't you say you wouldn't draft Horford if he was 6'11?

[atlien]

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It's definitely not impossible to play good basketball with a slightly undersized but extremely strong, quick, and athletic frontline.

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Not only that, but it's an ENTERTAINING brand of bball to watch too.

That line-up of Conley, JJ, MW, JS, Horford is a team that I would LOVE to watch (and by mid-season, the rest of NBA fans too... can you say Baby Suns... well you should, cuz if it happens that's what we'll be called). I think all those players would love to have that line-up too. It would be flat-out exciting.

Give me Phoenix anyday over the Spurs. (yes i know they just won a championship, I still dont like them. Same goes to Utah and Indy... lame teams IMO, but I digress).

I want my team to do well, but I also want a team that plays a style and has players that I enjoy watching.

That said, I think the lineup posted above can compete with anyone, and I think Horford can play half his minutes at the 5.

We should still try to get a late pick to roll the dice on Sean Williams. See if that can work out.

[exodus]

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So now you're making arguments by using assumptions? Good one.

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How is Rasheed's height and length an assumption?

You sure do come up with some weird stuff.

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He's 3 inches shorter than both,

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LOL

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Didn't you say you wouldn't draft Horford if he was 6'11?

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I know how tall he is. I also know his standing reach is only .5" higher than Smith. The measurements are common knowlege.

if he was taller and had a standing reach of 9'2" then i might have a different opinion but it doesn't matter.

[AtLaS]

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How is Rasheed's height and length an assumption?

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Because you have absolutely no proof that Sheed's standing reach is any bigger than Horfords, it's a complete assumption.

Funny how you avoided everything else after I shot down your other points.

[exodus]

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Because you have absolutely no proof that Sheed's standing reach is any bigger than Horfords, it's a complete assumption.

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LOL do you also need proof that the Earth is round?

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Funny how you avoided everything else after I shot down your other points.

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You mean your point about Ben being 3" shorter than Smith ( who is 6'7" barefoot)? Yeah that was a good one.

Or was it the way you tried to overstate TT's playing time? 16 minutes per game in the last month of the season doesn't impress me.

[AtLaS]

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LOL do you also need proof that the Earth is round?

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I figured your reply would go something like that. People thought Brandan Wright was as long as a mile, he only tested 1" higher in standing reach than Horford.

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You mean your point about Ben being 3" shorter than Smith ( who is 6'7" barefoot)? Yeah that was a good one.

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Or your point that Smith is as big as Horford (who is almost 2 inches taller than Smith)? Horford is at least 3 inches taller than Ben.

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Or was it the way you tried to overstate TT's playing time? 16 minutes per game in the last month of the season doesn't impress me.

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PJ's 20 minutes doesn't impress me either. And Tyrus played ~18 minutes post all star.

[exodus]

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Or your point that Smith is as big as Horford (who is almost 2 inches taller than Smith)? Horford is at least 3 inches taller than Ben.

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Smiths standing reach is only .5" less than Horford and Horford only weighs a few pounds more.

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I figured your reply would go something like that. People thought Brandan Wright was as long as a mile, he only tested 1" higher in standing reach than Horford.

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Wright played 1 year in college. Sheed has been in the NBA for years. It is obvious watching him against Smith that he has a much longer reach than Smith and therefore a much longer reach than Horford.

It isn't that complex.

[AtLaS]

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Smiths standing reach is only .5" less than Horford and Horford only weighs a few pounds more.

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Which has nothing to do with who's bigger since Horford is 2" taller, and weighs slightly more.

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Wright played 1 year in college. Sheed has been in the NBA for years. It is obvious watching him against Smith that he has a much longer reach than Smith and therefore a much longer reach than Horford.

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Great argument. By that logic, I've seen Kidd, Nash, Hinrich, Baron, Knight, Terry, Cassell, Miller, Payton play in the NBA for years and it's obvious they can't run the 3/4 court sprint faster than Crittenton.

[exodus]

Man you are sure clueless sometimes.

Funny you were talking about standing reach when comparing Horford to Sheed and when comparing Wright to Horford. Now all of a sudden it is height that matters. I guess you confused youself.

I have seen Sheed play against Smith many times. How many times have you seen Crit play against Kidd, Cassell, etc?

[vdunkndunk]

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When you think Horford, think Carlos Boozer.

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Boozer is over 260 and has a 9'1" standing reach. And he plays the 4.

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Officially Boozer plays the 4. But Boozer is the guy who does the big man things for them...he's the guy who posts up, who get the rebounds, who defends the other team's best big man. Mehmet Okur, meanwhile, their "center," is hanging around at the 3 point-line waiting for a chance to jack up a jumpshot.

I mean, who would give us a better frontline: Josh Smith and Mehmet Okur, or Josh Smith and Carlos Boozer? I know which one I'd take. And I think Horford will be able to play a game very similar to Boozer in the NBA, except Horford has a chance to be a better shotblocker.

By the way, Horford's standing reach is only 2 inches below Boozer's but Horford's vertical leap was significantly better. And right now Boozer outweighs Horford but I doubt he's all that much stronger.