Horford could only help Josh and Marvin?

[oiatlhawksfan]

If you think about it, Horford might be the first post presence, that Josh and Marvin can work with. Horford, will demand double teams, and with josh and Marvin being slasher, they'll be able to cut to the basket easier. Also he'll be able to get Marvin open looks, with him commanding double team. Anyone agree with this?

[wolvetigers]

This is the NBA...Hortford has to earn the right to be double team. He will not be doubled until he proves that he is a real threat. Its all depending on pg play...If Law and Speedy play very well it will open up many opportunities. I wouldnt be suprise if Salim, Childress will be traded for an experience scorer.

[archie_otu]

Quote:

---

If you think about it, Horford might be the first post presence, that Josh and Marvin can work with. Horford, will demand double teams, and with josh and Marvin being slasher, they'll be able to cut to the basket easier. Also he'll be able to get Marvin open looks, with him commanding double team. Anyone agree with this?

---

I dont agree...he doesnt have great low post moves yet...he basically has two shots when he's in the post...a left handed hook or a right handed hook.

[saloonyk8]

Horford has a nice mid-range jumper too.

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

Horford, will demand double teams

---

I'm sure he would. Down at the Cheetah III... Fridays are 2 for 1 night... I'm sure he will demand a double team. But Horford is not a high volume scorer... There's a reason for it. He's only had 2 games above 20+ points. He's not even competitive with Shelden in that aspect.

Plus he's a rookie.

Don't get your dreams up!

[killa3312]

Once again, you're reading too much into stats when you talk about this Florida team. Noah had only one 20 point game last season, FWIW. Green, Florida's leading scorer and ball handler, had five 20 point games (high of 25), and Brewer had four (high of 22). Humphrey, Florida's three point specialist, had two 20 point games as well (and had the highest scoring game of the season of any Gator with 27). This Florida team never put up gaudy individual stats because they were so unselfish and took smart shots... hence the reason they shot 52.6 percent from the floor (and led the country for the second consecutive season in FG percentage). BTW, Horford had three 20 point games, not two, and missed two games and played several others with a high ankle sprain.

When you look at Horford, you have to look at his skill set, which is very good. He can shoot, he can pass, he can post up, he can handle, and he can run the floor. There's nothing not to like about Horford, and there's a reason so many teams were after him before the draft.

[BusBoyIsBack]

None of those things mean anything to Diesel. He'll defend his boy Shelden until he's blue in the face

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

Noah had only one 20 point game last season, FWIW.

---

The truth is that nobody is expecting that Noah will be a good offensive player either. He has bad mechanics on his shot and he's not a garbage point scorer like Horford.

Quote:

---

This Florida team never put up gaudy individual stats because they were so unselfish and took smart shots.

---

I wouldn't come up with that conclusion. For instance: Boozer at Duke played with Jason Williams, Mike Dunleavy Jr., Duhon, and Ewing. All of these guys were very good scorers who were smart, unselfish, and the whole nine... BUT... Boozer had 12 20+ games 2 30+ games and was an offensive dream. That's what is called a volume scorer. He wasn't picked until the 2nd round (because he was not hyped) but look at him now... If you are a volume scorer in college it sets the table for being a big time scorer as a pro. Quite Frankly, I don't expect anybody but Brewer to be a scorer on the next level from that Florida team.

Quote:

---

When you look at Horford, you have to look at his skill set, which is very good. He can shoot, he can pass, he can post up, he can handle, and he can run the floor. There's nothing not to like about Horford, and there's a reason so many teams were after him before the draft.

---

For what we need, Horford doesn't bring a skillset that is widely greater than what we already have. We really need a talented scorer, that's why I really wanted Yi... Horford won't be a talented scorer. In fact, when you look at Horford's skillset, what does he do that we don't get from Smoove and Shelden? For instance, if I'm set to play Smoove at 4 and Shelden at 5, what am I getting from Horford that would be any different than what I already have...

Playing on the wing

1. He's not faster than Smoove.

2. He's not more athletic than Smoove.

3. He's not a better shot blocker than Smoove.

4. In college, he didn't play the wing.

5. He is probably not as good offensively as Smoove.

Playing the middle

1. He doesn't seem to have better positional defense than Shelden.

2. He's not stronger than Shelden.

3. He may be equal to Shelden in terms of rebounding.

4. His scoring will be a matter of strength.

The point is 3/4 times are not useful for the Center position. The Center position is about Strength and footwork. Now, Shelden was the best rebounder for his class all year. Even with his lack of playing time in the middle of the season, Shelden was still the leader. So I don't see the wide margin that Horford will bring. In fact, I will say this: Horford will have the same things not translate that Shelden did and that's the ability to dominate smaller players. In college, Shelden was a volume scorer and early and late in the season, Shelden showed the ability to be a double double player. I don't think we will see the same for Horford. Not being a garbage scorer with a left and right hookshot and a midrange shot that are streaky.

[killa3312]

Where did this myth that Horford is a garbage scorer come from? He was Florida's go to player in the post when they needed a basket late in the game.

Horford already has a better jump shot than Shelden, is arguably a better rebounder (he averaged one less per game in six less minutes per game), is a better ball handler, and can run the floor better.

I'll say this right now: Horford would be wasted at C, because his skill set is strictly that of a PF. That said, in terms of talent and skill set, he has everything there is to be a great pro. He's a great passer, a great rebounder, a very efficient scorer (volume or not, look at his PER and offensive efficiency, which are very good), and he's an incredibly intelligent player.

We can go back and forth on this all day long, but as a person who lives in Durham and has season tickets to Duke games, but also saw a lot of Florida game on television, Horford is simply a significantly better prospect than Shelden... he just is. His skill set is better, he's more athletic, he's taller, and so on and so forth. You sit there and twist words like saying NBA ready like that means he's a finished product. A lot of people called Oden and Durant NBA ready, have they reached their ceiling, too? The fact is, NBA ready means you can come in and play and help right away. It doesn't mean, however, that you've maxed out your ceiling. Horford just turned 21, and got considerably better each season at Florida. Shelden, OTOH, was 23 when drafted and close to a finished product.

I'm sorry, but there is no comparison.

[archie_otu]

Quote:

---

Where did this myth that Horford is a garbage scorer come from? He was Florida's go to player in the post when they needed a basket late in the game.

Horford already has a better jump shot than Shelden, is arguably a better rebounder (he averaged one less per game in six less minutes per game), is a better ball handler, and can run the floor better.

I'll say this right now: Horford would be wasted at C, because his skill set is strictly that of a PF. That said, in terms of talent and skill set, he has everything there is to be a great pro. He's a great passer, a great rebounder, a very efficient scorer (volume or not, look at his PER and offensive efficiency, which are very good), and he's an incredibly intelligent player.

We can go back and forth on this all day long, but as a person who lives in Durham and has season tickets to Duke games, but also saw a lot of Florida game on television, Horford is simply a significantly better prospect than Shelden... he just is. His skill set is better, he's more athletic, he's taller, and so on and so forth. You sit there and twist words like saying NBA ready like that means he's a finished product. A lot of people called Oden and Durant NBA ready, have they reached their ceiling, too? The fact is, NBA ready means you can come in and play and help right away. It doesn't mean, however, that you've maxed out your ceiling. Horford just turned 21, and got considerably better each season at Florida. Shelden, OTOH, was 23 when drafted and close to a finished product.

I'm sorry, but there is no comparison.

---

I guess we can go back and forth on this one....I went to Duke, graduated 2002...I had the benefit of going to over 50+ Cameron indoor games...I saw Brand upclose for two years and Boozer upclose for 3 years.

My only gripe with Horford is that he's not worth a number 3. He's not a dominant low post scorer. I watched a number of Florida games and never once did I think Horford is the number 3 player in the draft...heck there were times I thought he was the 3rd best player on Florida...

The comparisons to Boozer/Brand are laughable. I saw them both live while at Duke, and trust me...Horford is not even close to their level. Brand's low post game was WAY more polished than Horford. Brand's footwork while in the low post was impeccible...it's like he was tap dancing when he backed his man down. Brand had the hook shot, up and under, fadeaway jumper in the corner, etc while in the post. Even on a team with Battier, Will Avery, Trajan Langdon and Corey Maggette, Brand LOOKED like the best player on the court, unlike Horford who never remotely looked dominant.

While Boozer didnt have the full assortment of low post moves as Brand, he was still very polished and very fluid. I knew Boozer was going to be a solid player. Horford on the hand is very mechanical and borderline clumsy while in the post...he'll pretty much use the same two shots: left handed hook and right handed hook. He has a good mid range game but he rarely uses this shot while he's in the post. Horford reminds me of Dale Davis...solid player, but I dont see him ever making it to any All-Star games. He'll be a solid double double guy...as well as Sheldon Williams. Horford and Williams will be similar to what Dale Davis and Antonio Davis brought to the Pacers in the mid to late 90's. Nothing wrong with that. Still, I think a 3 is too high to get a Dale Davis type of player.

[killa3312]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Where did this myth that Horford is a garbage scorer come from? He was Florida's go to player in the post when they needed a basket late in the game.

Horford already has a better jump shot than Shelden, is arguably a better rebounder (he averaged one less per game in six less minutes per game), is a better ball handler, and can run the floor better.

I'll say this right now: Horford would be wasted at C, because his skill set is strictly that of a PF. That said, in terms of talent and skill set, he has everything there is to be a great pro. He's a great passer, a great rebounder, a very efficient scorer (volume or not, look at his PER and offensive efficiency, which are very good), and he's an incredibly intelligent player.

We can go back and forth on this all day long, but as a person who lives in Durham and has season tickets to Duke games, but also saw a lot of Florida game on television, Horford is simply a significantly better prospect than Shelden... he just is. His skill set is better, he's more athletic, he's taller, and so on and so forth. You sit there and twist words like saying NBA ready like that means he's a finished product. A lot of people called Oden and Durant NBA ready, have they reached their ceiling, too? The fact is, NBA ready means you can come in and play and help right away. It doesn't mean, however, that you've maxed out your ceiling. Horford just turned 21, and got considerably better each season at Florida. Shelden, OTOH, was 23 when drafted and close to a finished product.

I'm sorry, but there is no comparison.

---

I guess we can go back and forth on this one....I went to Duke, graduated 2002...I had the benefit of going to over 50+ Cameron indoor games...I saw Brand upclose for two years and Boozer upclose for 3 years.

My only gripe with Horford is that he's not worth a number 3. He's not a dominant low post scorer. I watched a number of Florida games and never once did I think Horford is the number 3 player in the draft...heck there were times I thought he was the 3rd best player on Florida...

The comparisons to Boozer/Brand are laughable. I saw them both live while at Duke, and trust me...Horford is not even close to their level. Brand's low post game was WAY more polished than Horford. Brand's footwork while in the low post was impeccible...it's like he was tap dancing when he backed his man down. Brand had the hook shot, up and under, fadeaway jumper in the corner, etc while in the post. Even on a team with Battier, Will Avery, Trajan Langdon and Corey Maggette, Brand LOOKED like the best player on the court, unlike Horford who never remotely looked dominant.

While Boozer didnt have the full assortment of low post moves as Brand, he was still very polished and very fluid. I knew Boozer was going to be a solid player. Horford on the hand is very mechanical and borderline clumsy while in the post...he'll pretty much use the same two shots: left handed hook and right handed hook. He has a good mid range game but he rarely uses this shot while he's in the post. Horford reminds me of Dale Davis...solid player, but I dont see him ever making it to any All-Star games. He'll be a solid double double guy...as well as Sheldon Williams. Horford and Williams will be similar to what Dale Davis and Antonio Davis brought to the Pacers in the mid to late 90's. Nothing wrong with that. Still, I think a 3 is too high to get a Dale Davis type of player.

---

You're right, we can go back and forth on this... it'll be resolved in time and we'll see who's right. Boozer was always a special scorer, but where he wasn't highly thought of was on the defensive end and because he's a 6'7 post player... most didn't think he'd have the ability to compete at the NBA level. Horford's a better passer than Boozer coming out, a better shooter, and a better rebounder and athlete. That doesn't guarantee anything, but he does have some advantages on Carlos. And you think he was raw this year? You should of seen Horford his first year of Florida. He's made tremendous strides and is still young enough to continue to develop.

Let's get one thing straight, though. I never said Horford would be better than Brand, so let's get that out of the way right now. Brand is a freak of nature for a 6'8 post player. He has huge hands and an enormous standing reach and wingspan, which allow him to play better than his 6'8 frame. He was the #1 pick for a reason.

[Diesel]

If you're saying that Horford is a better PF prospect than Shelden, you may be right if you're talking athletic PF. However, if you're talking atheletic PF, we have one called Smoove. Smoove has much more potential than Horford.

However, if you're talking about Center prospect, you're wrong. Shelden is a much better Center prospect because he can actually bang with the big boys. He has done it and did good.

[killa3312]

Quote:

---

If you're saying that Horford is a better PF prospect than Shelden, you may be right if you're talking athletic PF. However, if you're talking atheletic PF, we have one called Smoove. Smoove has much more potential than Horford.

However, if you're talking about Center prospect, you're wrong. Shelden is a much better Center prospect because he can actually bang with the big boys. He has done it and did good.

---

Well, that's because I don't see Smith as a PF, I see him as a SF.

Also, Horford can't bang with the big boys? For as much as you like to tout Shelden's strength, Horford is very strong himself, and has the frame to get even bigger and stronger. He's also taller, with better physical abilities and measurements than Shelden. Williams is 6'8, with short arms and limited athleticism. He is in no way, shape, or form geared to guard centers on a nightly basis.

[Diesel]

Tell you what...

Let's wait until 20 games into the season and then we can talk?!

[DavidSomerset]

Quote:

---

Tell you what...

Let's wait until 20 games into the season and then we can talk?!

---

Shelden was terrible his first 20 games...If you're going to compare them like that, then compare Horford's first 20 to Shelden's first 20.

[archie_otu]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

If you're saying that Horford is a better PF prospect than Shelden, you may be right if you're talking athletic PF. However, if you're talking atheletic PF, we have one called Smoove. Smoove has much more potential than Horford.

However, if you're talking about Center prospect, you're wrong. Shelden is a much better Center prospect because he can actually bang with the big boys. He has done it and did good.

---

Well, that's because I don't see Smith as a PF, I see him as a SF.

Also, Horford can't bang with the big boys? For as much as you like to tout Shelden's strength, Horford is very strong himself, and has the frame to get even bigger and stronger. He's also taller, with better physical abilities and measurements than Shelden. Williams is 6'8, with short arms and limited athleticism. He is in no way, shape, or form geared to guard centers on a nightly basis.

---

Shelden is one of the smartest defensive players I've ever seen. That's what people don't understand...I saw this guy play for 4 years...it's not about the measurables or athleticism..etc...Dennis Rodman is only 6'7" but he's one of the greatest rebounders ever...Sheldon makes up for his lack of athleticism with saavy and a high basketball IQ. He was just a rookie last year...it took Ben Wallace 3 or 4 years before he became the player he is...

Law and Horford are starting to grow on me...I like the Law pick alot more than the Horford pick...Horford looks like a clumsy power forward/c who will get into a lot of foul trouble early in the first half of the season next year...he'll turn out solid (Dale Davis/Nene/P.J. Brown) type of player)

[killa3312]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

If you're saying that Horford is a better PF prospect than Shelden, you may be right if you're talking athletic PF. However, if you're talking atheletic PF, we have one called Smoove. Smoove has much more potential than Horford.

However, if you're talking about Center prospect, you're wrong. Shelden is a much better Center prospect because he can actually bang with the big boys. He has done it and did good.

---

Well, that's because I don't see Smith as a PF, I see him as a SF.

Also, Horford can't bang with the big boys? For as much as you like to tout Shelden's strength, Horford is very strong himself, and has the frame to get even bigger and stronger. He's also taller, with better physical abilities and measurements than Shelden. Williams is 6'8, with short arms and limited athleticism. He is in no way, shape, or form geared to guard centers on a nightly basis.

---

Shelden is one of the smartest defensive players I've ever seen. That's what people don't understand...I saw this guy play for 4 years...it's not about the measurables or athleticism..etc...Dennis Rodman is only 6'7" but he's one of the greatest rebounders ever...Sheldon makes up for his lack of athleticism with saavy and a high basketball IQ. He was just a rookie last year...it took Ben Wallace 3 or 4 years before he became the player he is...

Law and Horford are starting to grow on me...I like the Law pick alot more than the Horford pick...Horford looks like a clumsy power forward/c who will get into a lot of foul trouble early in the first half of the season next year...he'll turn out solid (Dale Davis/Nene/P.J. Brown) type of player)

---

You can be a smart player, but it still doesn't make up for your shortcomings. Fortunately for Shelden's sake, the center crop in the NBA is weak, so he wouldn't get absolutely killed playing there, but he certainly doesn't have close to ideal measurements or physical abilities for the position. Also, Horford, according to Donovan, is the smartest player he's ever coached, which is saying something since he's had the likes of Udonis Haslem, David Lee, and Matt Bonner there, so he's not exactly lacking in intelligence, either.

Horford is going to surprise some people. His post game got better every year at Florida, and I expect it to continue to get better. He had one move when he arrived at Florida... back down his man and turn around and hit a little jumper in the paint. Since then, he's developed a hook with both hands, a mid range jumper, and a spin move. He's going to be a very good pro, I'm fairly certain of it.

[archie_otu]

Quote:

---

You can be a smart player, but it still doesn't make up for your shortcomings. Fortunately for Shelden's sake, the center crop in the NBA is weak, so he wouldn't get absolutely killed playing there, but he certainly doesn't have close to ideal measurements or physical abilities for the position. Also, Horford, according to Donovan, is the smartest player he's ever coached, which is saying something since he's had the likes of Udonis Haslem, David Lee, and Matt Bonner there, so he's not exactly lacking in intelligence, either.

Horford is going to surprise some people. His post game got better every year at Florida, and I expect it to continue to get better. He had one move when he arrived at Florida... back down his man and turn around and hit a little jumper in the paint. Since then, he's developed a hook with both hands, a mid range jumper, and a spin move. He's going to be a very good pro, I'm fairly certain of it.

---

I dont much for coach speak...I do the eyeball thing, I watch alot games...Shelden is a better C prospect coming out than Horford is...Shelden is a better rebounder, defender, and low post scorer. His defensive IQ is WAY better than Horford. Shelden was the only true big man that Coach K had in like 4 years...he's always played C...

Horford is a prototypical pf...Memphis and Milwaukee REALLY wanted him...why, because they both have soft 7'0"s (Gasol and Bogut)...they were going to stick Horford at PF. We will do the same thing...Horford is not a C because he doesnt have the low post game...yeah he has a nice mid range game but he doesnt use it while he's in the post...he'll use it when he faces his man up...when he's in the post, 90% of time he's throwing a hook up. Horford and SW is probably the most bruising C and PF combination in the NBA. JSmith can play 3 or 4. Law and JJ gives you outside scoring.

This team is starting to grow on me.

[killa3312]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

You can be a smart player, but it still doesn't make up for your shortcomings. Fortunately for Shelden's sake, the center crop in the NBA is weak, so he wouldn't get absolutely killed playing there, but he certainly doesn't have close to ideal measurements or physical abilities for the position. Also, Horford, according to Donovan, is the smartest player he's ever coached, which is saying something since he's had the likes of Udonis Haslem, David Lee, and Matt Bonner there, so he's not exactly lacking in intelligence, either.

Horford is going to surprise some people. His post game got better every year at Florida, and I expect it to continue to get better. He had one move when he arrived at Florida... back down his man and turn around and hit a little jumper in the paint. Since then, he's developed a hook with both hands, a mid range jumper, and a spin move. He's going to be a very good pro, I'm fairly certain of it.

---

I dont much for coach speak...I do the eyeball thing, I watch alot games...Shelden is a better C prospect coming out than Horford is...Shelden is a better rebounder, defender, and low post scorer. His defensive IQ is WAY better than Horford. Shelden was the only true big man that Coach K had in like 4 years...he's always played C...

Horford is a prototypical pf...Memphis and Milwaukee REALLY wanted him...why, because they both have soft 7'0"s (Gasol and Bogut)...they were going to stick Horford at PF. We will do the same thing...Horford is not a C because he doesnt have the low post game...yeah he has a nice mid range game but he doesnt use it while he's in the post...he'll use it when he faces his man up...when he's in the post, 90% of time he's throwing a hook up. Horford and SW is probably the most bruising C and PF combination in the NBA. JSmith can play 3 or 4. Law and JJ gives you outside scoring.

This team is starting to grow on me.

---

Shelden isn't a better rebounder. He averaged one more per game, as a senior, than Horford as a junior, and did it in six more minutes per game with no one like a Noah to take rebounds from him.

I assume you're calling Donovan a liar then? David Lee was an incredibly intelligent player at Florida, as was Matt Bonner, and Donovan says with conviction that Horford was smarter than both of them. Nobody is saying that Shelden isn't a smart player, but at the same time, let's not make it sound like Horford is lacking in that department, either.

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

Shelden isn't a better rebounder. He averaged one more per game, as a senior, than Horford as a junior, and did it in six more minutes per game with no one like a Noah to take rebounds from him.

---

Uhm.. Hate to bring this detail in, but Having Noah on your squad actually increases your ability to get rebounds. Without a Noah, teams could actually focus on boxing Shelden out with 2 or 3 men (if need be).. the Whole league knew he was their only rebounder.

Can't say the same about Horford.