I guess that "Monday trade" isnt happening

[AHF]

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I guess your BK nutriding has it's limits. I don't think even you could justify, in your own mind, how BK had Childress ranked as the 3rd best prospect in that draft.

And in case you missed it i haven't been bashing BK over this years draft, which i would be doing if i was really a "butcher".

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There is a legit question in my mind whether BK actually had Childress rated 3rd best or just said that after the draft. There are a lot of times teams will say "that was my guy" after the draft regardless of which of 5 guys was still on the board when they picked. I have a hard time believing that BK didn't have Howard, Livingston and Okafor all higher on his board. After that, I can't delve that deeply into the mind of BK.

[exodus]

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There are a lot of times teams will say "that was my guy" after the draft regardless of which of 5 guys was still on the board when they picked.

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Somehow i don't see BK having that kind of media savvy.

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I can't delve that deeply into the mind of BK.

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Yeah that would be risky business.

[sturt]

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BK had Childress ranked as the 3rd best prospect in that draft.

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Without being argumentative, out of sheer curiosity, I'd love to see the BK quote if it's actually in print from a hard news source. I confess ignorance.

But even if that were the case, it doesn't confirm/deny my point... BK had a reasonable strategy for each of the drafts he's participated in, and he used it.

I really do have to leave now and do some things I get paid for... but you're welcome to the last word... again.

[exodus]

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I'd love to see the BK quote if it's actually in print from a hard news source. I confess ignorance.

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I doubt i could find it but i am sure a lot of people here (like AHF) remember it.

[AHF]

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I'd love to see the BK quote if it's actually in print from a hard news source. I confess ignorance.

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I doubt i could find it but i am sure a lot of people here (like AHF) remember it.

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I do remember it. Here is one link that doesn't have the actual quote:

http://wsbradio.com/news/062504hawksdraft3a.html

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Knight tried to work a deal for a top-5 pick, hoping to add another highly rated player to a team that has endured five straight losing seasons. Childress was the third-rated player on his draft board, behind Howard and high school point guard Shaun Livingston.

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[exodus]

Thanks. Assuming it is true it really makes you wonder what goes through BK's head. It is bad enough that he had Childress ahead of Deng, but ahead of Okafor?

[AHF]

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Thanks. Assuming it is true it really makes you wonder what goes through BK's head. It is bad enough that he had Childress ahead of Deng, but ahead of Okafor?

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I am skeptical that he wouldn't have drafted Okafor over Chill. I think that is a bit of selling the pick after the fact. It makes you wonder if you take it at face value, though.

[sturt]

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There are a lot of times teams will say "that was my guy" after the draft regardless of which of 5 guys was still on the board when they picked.

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Somehow i don't see BK having that kind of media savvy.

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(I'm back sooner than I'd expected from some errands...)

Not 100% positive, but given everything else ex has written, I took this as a dig at BK's intelligence...

One can disagree with BK's analysis and his choices, but if you begin from a prejudice that BK is unintelligent, that says more about that person's axe to grind than it does about his intelligence.

(Bout that last word thing???... sorry. I'll shut up now.)

[exodus]

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(Bout that last word thing???... sorry. I'll shut up now.)

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LOL

If you agree with BK's picks that is one thing. But do you seriously think BK is media savvy?

BK has always bad with the media and that isn't even debatable.

[sturt]

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(Bout that last word thing???... sorry. I'll shut up now.)

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LOL

If you agree with BK's picks that is one thing. But do you seriously think BK is media savvy?

BK has always bad with the media and that isn't even debatable.

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It takes something closer to common sense, as opposed to "savvy" to know to tell the media that your draft pick was "your guy" all along.

What's more, one may be "savvy," ie know how to use the media to your own ends, and not be "media-friendly."

I'm not saying BK is savvy nor media-friendly... as I'd prefaced, I took the comment to mean you thought BK to be unintelligent... and that was the basis of my response.

But as... ahem... savvy... as you are, ex, I think you probably understood the vocabulary spin cycle you were attempting.

Nice try.

*wink*

[SmooveTheFuture]

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Harrington was gone. Now you do not have to believe me; just check our roster and see if he is still there. Diaw is gone. Again; check our roster. Donta was cut; check our roster. That pretty much leaves Chilz a role player and Smoove a truer power forward than a small forward. No superstar SF in this whole group. MWill was picked 2nd to be a superstar. No one in your group was or ever will be even an all-star small forward.

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Once again you are wrong. Al Harrington was not traded until Marvin's 2nd year in the league. The Summer going into he was on the team for Marvins ROokie year. Also Boris Diaw was traded after we had already drafted MArvin Williams. THe Joe Johnson trade happened after the NBA draft. Also Donta Smith was also on the roster and was playing some games in the D-League do you not recall he was called up during Marvins Rookie year to play some minutes when Al Harrington went down. If Al Harrington was never an allstar in this league I find it hard to believe Marvin will ever be.

[Dsinner]

When comparing BK's basketball knowledge and GM skills to our very own HawkSquawk members he would seem to have the upperhand. However, when comparing him to other team's GM's I'd venture to say his IQ is near the bottom.

Look, the man said Acie Law reminded him of Mark Jackson. Of course he said that Acie was a better scorer and Mark was more of a floor general but he reminded him of Jacson non-the-less. How is it possible to even make that comparison? Take away Jackson's passing and he fails to be Jackson. Hell, he fails to have ever been in the NBA. That's like saying Hakeem reminds me of Deke. Hakeem had better post-up game and Deke was a better defender but they still reminded me of one another.

Now I'm not claiming I could come close to doing a better job than BK, I'm simply claiming there are at least 50 people in the NBA that could.

He's not that bad at drafting talent (with his high picks he should be decent) but he simply can't put together a winner. THAT IS A FACT.

Time will tell but all these lottery slections (decent players I might add) over the years should have gotten us out of the lottery by now. At least above .500. We haven't even gotten close. You can defend the man all you want but his record speaks for itself.

Thank you, Thank you, you're too kind.

[FrankWhite]

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I did not mention SF I said forwards learn to read its easy. Ok I will say again for you slow I know its hard for you but try I know you can do it. Boris Diaw, Al Harrington, Donta Smith, Josh Childress and Josh Smith were all forwards to some degree. Now our sorry azz pgs were Royal Ivey (2nd yr player) tyron lue and tony delk (lol). Now you tell me what was our bigger need I know it wasnt forward thats for sure. You say Marvin Williams has superstar potential really where the hell is it ? A franchise point guard means much more to a team then some overhyped wing player. Who lacks NBA skills. This Is the same Marvin Williams who wasnt good enought to go pro after High School in one of the biggest High School drafts in NBA history. Why didnt he pro ? Because he knew he wouldnt gotten picked until late def. not even close to a lottery pick. Do you realize that Marvin Williams is a product of the Hype Machine that fans like you fall into. This guy was the same guy who came off the bench for a national title team he wasnt good enough to start. He has a good few games in the NCAA tourney and now he has superstar potential hahaha give me a break he did this vs college players not in the NBA. Marvin has yet to show nothing at all why he was chosen 2nd overall. Way to dodge all my questions too..

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You've got to be kidding me. You say Marvin is terrible because he wouldn't have been a lottery pick had he gone straight to the pros from high school? Where exactly was Smith picked again? Or Al Jefferson? I think most of us would put those guys as top 5 talent from that draft and they weren't lottery picks coming out of high school. He wasn't good enough to start for UNC? That's funny. He deferred to a senior at Roy Williams' request and was praised for his unselfishness. And he was widely considered all throughout his freshman season as the most talented frontcourt player on that team, not just because he had a "few good games" in the tourney. You think he's not as good as Jawad Williams or Sean May?

Saying that someone going to college for a year instead of going pro out of high school is any kind of indicator of how good they are is ridiculous.

After the All Star break last season, Marvin averaged 14.5 ppg and 6 rpg on 45% shooting and over 80% at the line. The first half of the season he was coming back from a broken hand which obviously affected his shooting percentage. Now the post-All Star break numbers aren't mindblowing, but considering everyone said when he was drafted that he'd be a project and that he'd need at least 2 years before he put everything together, those are pretty good numbers. If Marvin had stayed in school for his sophmore year and came out in last year's draft, he would have gone #1, and if averaged 14.5 ppg 6 rpg as a rookie, we'd all be ecstatic over his potential. Is he a finished product? Of course not. Did he show significant growth as a player last year? Yes, and that's undeniable. The fact that his development gets compared to two players who were far more NBA ready than him is completely unfair.

[Dejay]

I write a four-line quirp and I have Sturt writing up something the size of a thesis paper in return. I guess I'll respond in kind...

We pick on BK because, well, we can. Sure he's garnered 'assets' on this team and rebuilt a bloated roster full of overpaid underachievers but...so? How many playoff appearances has those 'assets' made for him? How many division titles have they won?

You see, WINNING is all I personally care about when it comes to this team. I could give a fat baby's ASS about how much room they have under the cap, the luxury tax situation, who's playing where. I DON'T CARE. I could also care less about how many other teams passed up on good/great players in the draft. 'Sure BK passed up on 'blank' but several other teams passed on him too'. Huh? That's like breaking into a bank, getting caught, and telling the cops you did it because Jack and Billy were doing it too. It just plain weak. Last I checked, the Spurs, Nuggets, and Sixers don't advertise their home games here (but considering the Hawks' marketing approach, they've already tried).

To say that BK has a method to his madness is just that; madness. One year, he takes the safe pick in Childress over Iguodala, Deng, and Jefferson. Sure he had foot problems in college and has no midrange game whatsoever (although Deng certainly does) but that's a safe pick, right? A year later, after drafting him, Smith, Donta, and having Harrington already on the roster, he turns right back around and take MARVIN WILLIAMS? I don't know about you but I need more evidence that the 2nd pick will be more than what he showed coming off the bench at Chapel Hill. Chris Paul showed more; Deron Williams showed more. Hell, Raymond Felton showed more and he was a teammate. Picks that high are supposed to be franchise changers, not go-along-to-get-along role players, which is exactly what MW is until he proves otherwise. I won't even bother to open up the can of worms concerning Shelden's selection; I've stated my peace on that months ago.

My friend, these are the types of moves that sets teams back several years. Would you care to even imagine how differently we'd judge him if Luol Deng and Deron Williams were here? We'd all be BK homers because we'd be a PLAYOFF TEAM BY NOW and not holding vigils on Hawksquawk in hopes of keeping our pick away from Phoenix. How many more wins would those two have gotten us, especially considering that they can actually create their own shot (something Childress and MW have difficulty doing), which would force teams not to send 54 guys in JJ's direction? 15? 18? Oh well, I guess its best to keep the status quo, right?

My point is that there isn't a lottery selection he's made that hasn't been hotly debatable. NONE. That isn't the case in Chicago, Utah, or Portland, isn't it?

And to say that he's done better than the GMs before him (Babs, Kasten) is like comparing Lebron's game to an 8-year old. He's SUPPOSED to do better when he has FOUR LOTTERY PICKS AT HIS DISPOSAL.

I guess BK does have a plan. I'd just like to see this plan of his bear some fruit sometime soon.

[Buzzard]

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Harrington was gone. Now you do not have to believe me; just check our roster and see if he is still there. Diaw is gone. Again; check our roster. Donta was cut; check our roster. That pretty much leaves Chilz a role player and Smoove a truer power forward than a small forward. No superstar SF in this whole group. MWill was picked 2nd to be a superstar. No one in your group was or ever will be even an all-star small forward.

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Once again you are wrong. Al Harrington was not traded until Marvin's 2nd year in the league. The Summer going into he was on the team for Marvins ROokie year. Also Boris Diaw was traded after we had already drafted MArvin Williams. THe Joe Johnson trade happened after the NBA draft. Also Donta Smith was also on the roster and was playing some games in the D-League do you not recall he was called up during Marvins Rookie year to play some minutes when Al Harrington went down. If Al Harrington was never an allstar in this league I find it hard to believe Marvin will ever be.

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Talking to you is like dealing wth a child. I kind of know (sarcasm) they were all on our roster then. I clearly state "just check our roster and see if he is still there" as in check it and see if he IS STILL there. That is present tense. Reason I say they were gone, in the sense of sooner or later being gone, is because they did not have the talent to be an all-star; which is obviously why they were expendable and Marvin was drafted.

Your whole hijacking of this post was based on "how many" forwards we had when Marvin was drafted. My reply was at the time a simple one based on a simple and obvious truth, "that none of them were and never will be all-star quality SF's". And guess what hero? To quote you "so far I am right". This is why the drafting of Marvin was justified. I do not know why this concept is so hard for you to understand, quantity does not equal quality.

[sturt]

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I write a four-line quirp and I have Sturt writing up something the size of a thesis paper in return. I guess I'll respond in kind...

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Sorry... just be thankful you get the written version... some people have to endure the live, talkie version of my responses, and that ain't fun according to my students.

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We pick on BK because, well, we can.

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Honesty is such a desirable character trait.

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How many playoff appearances has those 'assets' made for him? How many division titles have they won?

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Zero.

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Would you care to even imagine how differently we'd judge him if Luol Deng and Deron Williams were here?

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Ummm... that assumes, of course, that Deng or Williams would have thrived as well with this roster as they have with those in Chicago or Salt Lake.

But assuming that, and then imagining per your request...

Do I go by the attitude I find here now... which "grass is greener," would mean there'd be the same condemnation, just for something else that his team has failed to achieve...

Or do I just presume that the hyper-critical mob would recognize that "it coulda been worse"...???

Seriously???

Seriously, and hoping you're continuing with the honest vein you started with... I don't see a whole lot of difference in judgment...

There are glass-half-empty people, and that's just the way it is, whether the glass is filled with water or kool-aid (... there's a Jim Jones analogy just so easy to play with there, but give me credit, I'm not going to bother ...)

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My point is that there isn't a lottery selection he's made that hasn't been hotly debatable.

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I dare say there are hot debates among fans of every football and every basketball team immediately before and immediately after every draft.

But, understand that I get your point... you want to see results so that it's no longer debatable.

Well, on that one, we all agree. The disagreement is over whether it should have already happened, or whether it could have already happened minus some injuries last season... however, I just don't want to invest the time to launch off into that path... call me lazy, but it's more like, bored with the discussion.

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And to say that he's done better than the GMs before him (Babs, Kasten) is like comparing Lebron's game to an 8-year old. He's SUPPOSED to do better when he has FOUR LOTTERY PICKS AT HIS DISPOSAL.

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No.

Just absolutely, no.

With all due respect, dejay, you've gotten cart before proverbial horse on this one.

You know this, but it's flying under the radar... BK was awarded the first lottery pick because of his predecessor's work.

BK was awarded the second pick because the ditch dug by his predecessor was too deep for one pick to matter.

And the third... and now, the fourth year.

He's supposed to do better, but the results aren't supposed to show up nearly so rapidly as the impatient would like.

The foundation of this impatience is simple: it's the natural consequence of not appreciating the depths to which the franchise had sunk in terms of a talent base, and what's more, the difficulties complicating the rebuilding borne of going from an apathetic ownership (Time Warner) to an almost ownerships (McDavid) to a scrambled ownership situation... we can't know specifics, but the general fact ought to tell us enough--there has been little stability in this organization for 5 years and counting.

You don't rebuild a team after drafting #17 in 2003.

You don't rebuild a team after one pick in 2004... or another in 2005...

That you can see a horizon after a third pick in 2006 is a good thing.

But now, after four years of it, we're all mostly in the same place in terms of expectations, or so it seems.

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I guess BK does have a plan. I'd just like to see this plan of his bear some fruit sometime soon.

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Amen.

[exodus]

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To say that BK has a method to his madness is just that; madness.

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LOL

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One year, he takes the safe pick in Childress over Iguodala, Deng, and Jefferson. Sure he had foot problems in college and has no midrange game whatsoever (although Deng certainly does) but that's a safe pick, right?

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Yeah but Childress is an asset and that is all that matters. So there.

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My friend, these are the types of moves that sets teams back several years.

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exactly

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Would you care to even imagine how differently we'd judge him if Luol Deng and Deron Williams were here?

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I am sure their production would really suffer if they came here and had to carry more of the load, just like JJ's production suffered. Oh wait....

Excellent post

[Seano]

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After that, I can't delve that deeply into the mind of BK.

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I would recommend you not even try to do so. Lord only knows what's going on inside that dude's brain....

[Stinger]

I'm exhausted with all the recent posts regarding Luol Deng. Sure we all knew he was going to be a great player - especially after he tested as one of the worst athletes in the combine. Deng was falling like a stone in the draft but now in 2007 we all knew he was the player to take - give me a break!