Shelden, Horford, BK and Yi!!!

[killa3312]

Speaking of Shelden in college...

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=253340084

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=253440251

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=253380150

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=253520150

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=253550150

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=260180150

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=260080154

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=260210046

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=260350150

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=260380153

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=260420120

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=260450150

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=260530059

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=260630150

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=260690150

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=260700150

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=260710150

Lots of big games from opposing big men, including getting outplayed by Eric Williams three times. Eric Williams isn't even close to sniffing the league.

At least Horford got outplayed by players that are/will be in the NBA, and he never got outplayed as badly as Shelden did in some of these matchups.

[Diesel]

What you say sounds really nice and all... However, when Florida is taking a loss, does that also mean that NOBODY who could step up their game (especially if they're expected to step up their scoring in the NBA) stepped up?

Think about that TP...

You are playing on a team, all of you are unselfish... YET When you guys are losing.. down by 10, if you have the ability to do it, you don't put the team on your back and step it up??

Vanderbilt, LSU, Tenn, and the rest just beat on UF and there was no stepping up by anybody. Nobody raised their game.. They just threw the towel...

Strange.

[Diesel]

I'm Laughing out loud here Busy.

I can't believe the level of ignorance you just displayed in your commentary.

Let me make this plan...

61% scoring usually means:

1. A player scored a lot of Dunks and Layups.

2. A player usually imposed his will on weaker players.

I think this is true for Horford in both cases.

However, there's a such thing called Translation. Will it translate into the pro game. The answer is NO. I remember a lot was made of Bogut putting up 61% against 6'5" Centers in the MWC... and people thought he was the next Bill Walton. Yes, people said that. Well, there are no 6'5" Centers in the NBA. Moreover, the level of competition is much higher, especially for bigs. Why do you think Most Bigs flop when they get here?

The one thing you said that makes any sense is that you have to look at the ability of the player. However, Horford doesn't score in volume on the college level.. It's prolly not going to happen on the pro level either. Volume scorers score. Horford didn't stop anybody on the college level, it prolly won't happen on the pro level either. Defensive players shut down other players.

[TexasPete]

UF just won two straight national titles with their team first approach. Every team stubs their toe but their approach never let them screw up when it counted.

I'm a Nole so I hated UF. But even fool can see that their team first approach was incredibly successful. I think they all stepped up when it counted don't you?

[thesheedera]

BUMP

while I like Shelden and think he'll be a good pro, he was one of the most overrated defensive players in the history of college basketball

his offense was underrated, but his defensive reputation was a complete joke

he registered blocks, but gave up ENORMOUS games to big men throughout his career

[Diesel]

I mean, that's what it sounds like....

For the record, I don't think any coach in the NCAA tells his players, "Alright guys, I want you to go out there and pad your stats and do what you need to do to make you look good."... I mean, is that what happens at FSU? Did the coach say, "Alright, every man for youself...especially you Thornton.

"

So let's kill this strawman about a "Team First" concept being mutually exclusive to UF??

What you're really trying to say is that they ran a system which "Limited" it's players... However, if that's the case, couldn't it also be said that they ran a system which "MADE" it's players. I mean, how could you tell the difference.

[gsuteke]

But you're all wasting your time.

Billy Knight doesn't give two sh!ts about what any of us think and ultimately he's the one calling the shots.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Quote:

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I'm Laughing out loud here Busy.

I can't believe the level of ignorance you just displayed in your commentary.

Let me make this plan...

61% scoring usually means:

1. A player scored a lot of Dunks and Layups.

2. A player usually imposed his will on weaker players.

I think this is true for Horford in both cases.

However, there's a such thing called Translation. Will it translate into the pro game. The answer is NO. I remember a lot was made of Bogut putting up 61% against 6'5" Centers in the MWC... and people thought he was the next Bill Walton. Yes, people said that. Well, there are no 6'5" Centers in the NBA. Moreover, the level of competition is much higher, especially for bigs. Why do you think Most Bigs flop when they get here?

The one thing you said that makes any sense is that you have to look at the ability of the player. However, Horford doesn't score in volume on the college level.. It's prolly not going to happen on the pro level either. Volume scorers score. Horford didn't stop anybody on the college level, it prolly won't happen on the pro level either. Defensive players shut down other players.

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Guys from major schools who came closest to Brandan Wright's feat this year since 2000:

Andrew Bogut 2004-2005

Sophmore

260/414

62.8

1st Overall Pick

Emeka Okafor- 2003-2004

Senior

229/380

60.3

2nd Overall Pick

Chris Kaman-2002-2003

Junior

228/361

63.2

1st round 6th pick

Carlos Boozer- 2001-2002

Junior

210/315

66.7

2nd round 6th pick

Nick Collison- 2001-2002

Junior

209/348

60.1

1st round 12th pick

All those guys are in the NBA and the only one that can be considered a bust is Collison. And there are fans that say that they aren't giving up on him.

That's a pretty impressive percentage of successful players versus looking at PPG when it's a lot more scrubs than successful players

THAT's why I say Field Goal Percentage is a more telling statistic.

If you just look at PPG you could conclude Shelden Williams is on the level of Elton Brand.

But Brand, like Horford was a 60% shooter.

[drzachary]

Daddy D, are you saying that 61% shooting is a stat we should use to DENIGRATE a player's performance?

[BusBoyIsBack]

Quote:

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I mean, that's what it sounds like....

For the record, I don't think any coach in the NCAA tells his players, "Alright guys, I want you to go out there and pad your stats and do what you need to do to make you look good."... I mean, is that what happens at FSU? Did the coach say, "Alright, every man for youself...especially you Thornton.

"

So let's kill this strawman about a "Team First" concept being mutually exclusive to UF??

What you're really trying to say is that they ran a system which "Limited" it's players... However, if that's the case, couldn't it also be said that they ran a system which "MADE" it's players. I mean, how could you tell the difference.

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Or maybe just maybe, Al Thornton was the star player on his team that lacked a supporting cast, just like Acie Law.

If you are on a loaded team sometimes you don't score as many points as you are capable of.

Look at Brandan Wright. The guy set a Freshman record in FG% but he didn't even get 15 PPG. It's not because he doesn't have talent. It's just because he was on a team loaded with All-Americans where the ball was distributed a lot more than the situation of a Kevin Durant

You can look at things from the angle that "Well if he's the best player he should take over and take more shots" well that theory doesn't work in a team sport like basketball on the college or pro level.

Volume shooting can win you a scoring title at either level but rarely will it ever win you a championship over team basketball

[Diesel]

You don't get it... We don't give two sh!ts about Knight either. This is a forum. If somebody in power cares, they show up and talk about, if they don't care... we show up and we still talk about it...

There is no respect of persons...

[Diesel]

Go back to the list...

How many of those guys scored 20+ less than 3 times in their draft year?

I already know that Boozer scored 20+ 12 times and 30+ 2 times in his draft year. We call that a VOLUME Scorer...

I would assume the same of Bogut and Kaman being that they were the show.

Okafor is not labelled a bust yet, but he's not labelled a star either.

[Diesel]

You will see the same thing for Al Horford...

The point is... The same defense that didn't translate for Shelden won't translate for Horford. For the same reason. They both made a living being good defenders against lesser players and were shown up against good players. The NBA is filled with good players.

One thing that you do notice is that in a majority of the games, Shelden put up more than 20 points. We don't see that with Horford.

[Diesel]

Quote:

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Daddy D, are you saying that 61% shooting is a stat we should use to DENIGRATE a player's performance?

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NO...

I'm saying watch the games. See how a player scores. If most of his scores are on fast breaks or garbage points, you can certainly say that they probably won't translate.

Quick.. Name Horford's money shot in the post?

While Boozer and Brand were short guys, everybody knew that they had special offensive abilities. People didn't think Boozer's size would translate, but it did.

[thesheedera]

Diesel, are you a dookie?

[Diesel]

No.

I actually hate Duke basketball, Notre Dame Football, and The Yankees..

However, that doesn't mean that I don't respect Brand, Boozer, The rocket, and Reggie Jackson.

[Dukegotgame]

Quote:

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Why is that guys like Boozer can play along side Jay Williams, Mike Dunleavy Jr., Duhon, and still be a volume scorer?

Or why a guy like Laettner could play along side Grant HIll, Bobby Hurley, Thomas Hill, Billy Macaffrey, and Antonio Lang and still be a volume scorer?

Or why a guy like Larry Johnson can play alongside of guys like Stacey Augmon, Ackles, Anderson Hunt, and Greg Anthony and still be a volume scorer?

Or how Sam Perkins could play alongside of Jordan, Worthy, and Black and still be a volume scorer??

The problem my friend is that you don't understand the college game. There have been plenty of volume scorers on stacked teams. Either you have it or you don't. There are no excuses... You show me a guy who can't get 20 points as a college player, and you have shown me a guy who probably won't do it as a pro either. That's the bottom line.

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Duhon was a freshman when he played with Boozer and did not do anything scoring wise. Dunleavy wasnt a big scorer either. He did a little of everything. Quit making stuff up

[BusBoyIsBack]

Quote:

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I'm saying watch the games. See how a player scores. If most of his scores are on fast breaks or garbage points, you can certainly say that they probably won't translate.

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Perhaps you should take your own advice considering that's how Joakim Noah scored the majority of his baskets. You know the same guy you once proclaimed as better than Oden.

Quote:

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Quick.. Name Horford's money shot in the post?

While Boozer and Brand were short guys, everybody knew that they had special offensive abilities. People didn't think Boozer's size would translate, but it did.

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The Money Shot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1o67naSnVs

And don't be surprised when the People who think Horford's size won't translate are wrong as well.

[Wurider05]

Quote:

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You will see the same thing for Al Horford...

The point is... The same defense that didn't translate for Shelden won't translate for Horford. For the same reason. They both made a living being good defenders against lesser players and were shown up against good players. The NBA is filled with good players.

One thing that you do notice is that in a majority of the games, Shelden put up more than 20 points. We don't see that with Horford.

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That was a very good point.