Shelden, Horford, BK and Yi!!!

[Guest Walter]

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The point is that with Shelden's skillset already on the team, getting AL was duplication without much progress.

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It makes no sense to me. After this year when Woody and BK are both fired (and that is my belief) I expect more of the truth to come out (leaked). I expect that ownership caved in (again) allowing Woody and BK to hang themselves with their own selections.

I actually like Horford at Pf, just not for our team. It's a shame, I think he a prototypical Pf, just we needed a superstar potential, mismatch advantage, varying skillset individual and not "the player most like SW" in the draft forced to play center. We chose to squeeze water out of a rock, maybe the best thing to come of it will be squeezing BK and Woody out of here.

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I don't mind the Law pick. I'm more curious about it. I'll give it a wait and see since I didn't see enough of him in college to say he can't be enough of a Pg. I do like his toughness and leadership. That's what I wouldn't have minded Noah at 11 for. Seems we got some of it anyhow. I just hope Critt doesn't blow up in LA LA land.

W

[killa3312]

Once again, Horford had three 20 points games, not two. And he'll be an 8/8 player at best? Shows you just how clueless you are.

Horford was held back by Donovan, scoring wise, because of the type of team Florida was. He'll prove he can score at the NBA level. And before you break out the 'these other players played on stacked teams and were volume scorers' nonsense... Patrick Ewing, his senior season, averaged 14 and 9, but he went on to have a pretty decent career, no?It's not about what you do in college, otherwise Adam Morrison and J.J. Redick would dominate the league. It's all about skill set, and Horford has a very good one. Remember, he averaged less than 28 MPG because Florida had terrific depth at the position.

If you really want to look at stats, look at his offensive efficiency numbers and win share. Both are outstanding.

[Guest Walter]

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Once again, Horford had three 20 points games, not two.

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He had only 2 >20 games. His three highest scoring games were 20, 21, and 22 pts. Considering his junior year was his best year and his highest scoring game was 22 pts. It's conceivable that Horford's HIGHEST scoring game EVER was 4 PPG less than Durant's average as a freshman. And people expect Horford to score in the pros AT CENTER? I mean come on.

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And he'll be an 8/8 player at best? Shows you just how clueless you are.

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He said in three years. That very well could be the case. 10/8 doesn't excite me either, but that's where I see him at center in 3 years.

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Horford was held back by Donovan, scoring wise, because of the type of team Florida was.

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How can you knock a coach's system when it won 2 college titles in a row? If Horford at 10/8 in 3 years won us a title I'd cheer about the draft pick like crazy, but the NBA is different. It's more about superstar potential and mismatch advantages than system. Pheonix has been about system lately, but that certainly is the exception. Not like Horford fits any system like Nash fits Pheonix's system anyhow. He certainly doesn't have superstar potential (at center especially, or elsewhere). Nor does he create a mismatch advantage.

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He'll prove he can score at the NBA level.

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He'll have to and he better because he d@mn sure didn't prove it in the pros. D@mn that Donovan!

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It's all about skill set, and Horford has a very good one. Remember, he averaged less than 28 MPG because Florida had terrific depth at the position.

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I think Horford has a very good skill set and the body for the Pf position. BTW, in general it IS about what you do in college. There are exceptions but you don't draft top 3 for exceptions, particularly OUT OF POSITION!

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If you really want to look at stats, look at his offensive efficiency numbers and win share. Both are outstanding.

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As they were for SW.

W

[Diesel]

It's funny that Donovan's offense didn't hold other PFs/Cs back?

David Lee? Never had a problem scoring?

Even Noah... Who can't shoot so well, he even scores.

What's the deal?

[killa3312]

Lee never averaged more than 13 PPG for Florida, and he stayed all four years. Noah's best season was last year, when he average 14 a game, but he dipped to 12 this year and behind Horford. I'm not exactly seeing your point.

I never said Donovan had a bad system, moreover, that it held back some of his players from showing their potential to score the ball. This isn't the first time in college basketball that this would be the case. It's actually a good thing, because Horford won't [censored] and moan about his touches and will be a team player.

[FrankWhite]

Horford averaged more points per game than Noah last year, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at there. Donovan himself said Horford was a better pro prospect than Noah a year ago.

Nobody's knocking Donovan's system by pointing out that Florida relied on offensive balance to win, therefore individual statlines don't mean much. Look at almost any player's stats from a deep and balanced college team and you won't find too many 20+ ppg players. The fact that Horford didn't have to carry the offensive load all alone for Florida doesn't mean he won't be an effective scorer in the NBA.

[Diesel]

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Donovan himself said Horford was a better pro prospect than Noah a year ago.

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I don't think that's quite how it went down...

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"Hey,

d*ck

," Griffith said repeatedly, assuming Vitale eventually would realize he was on the air. Vitale continued his conversation, pointing out how Florida coach Billy Donovan had pulled him aside and told him in confidence that NBA scouts were making "a big mistake" by rating Florida player Joakim Noah ahead of teammate Al Horford.

"He (Donovan) said he would never say that publicly," Vitale said.

Moments later on an SEC teleconference, Donovan was asked about Vitale's comments.

"I never said that," Donovan said. "I'm not going to comment on anything I didn't say."

After receiving a call from "someone from Florida," Vitale called back to The Sports Page. He explained that he was doing Griffith a big favor by coming on the show, that he had an awful cell-phone connection earlier and that he was shocked to learn his conversation was on the air. It was all a big joke — "a non-story," he said.

As jokes go, that's almost as funny as Vitale offering journalistic advice.

Vitale called a couple of more times — off the air — to emphasize what a non-story it was. But in case I decided differently, he offered a quote.

"I was stupid and should have known better than making a statement like that in a situation where I think I'm playing with some fans and people," Vitale said. "I didn't have any idea I was on the air.

"But I'm wrong for fooling around in a situation like that. It's just not fair to Billy Donovan and his kids because Billy Donovan never said that. But what Billy said basically in a conversation earlier in the year is that how good Horford is."

Most of The Sports Page callers didn't think Vitale was kidding. You can decide for yourself by checking out the audio on Knoxnews.com.

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I think Horford has a better body than Noah right now. I think Horford's more mature than Noah, right now. However, if Noah's love for the game and desire for the ring picks up, he will be a force in this league. i.e. A better prospect.

[killa3312]

Of course Donovan is going to say he didn't say that. It's called damage control. Florida was going for a repeat and he didn't want to disrupt team chemistry. It's no secret that Billy's always loved Horford as a player and thinks extremely high of him.

[TexasPete]

I was told by a coach last week who had just returned from a national coaches meeting that he had spoken to Donovan about his team last year for a couple minutes. Donovan did not rave about one player over another but my coaching buddy told me this stat that is truly amazing and I have not checked it out to see if it was true.

Apparently, UF was the first team in the history of NCAA basketball to have all 5 starters average within .8 shots per game within one another. In other words, the UF guys all took the same amount of shots. Donovan mentioned that he nor anybody else will ever have a stat or group like this one again. He said that the guys all wanted to make the extra pass and share all year and that none of the UF players cared one bit about any stat. They all had that mentality. Most reasonably knowledgeable basketball fans, and there are some on here I would not put in that category, can easily see a guy like Horford blowing up better stats in the NBA because he is incredibly skilled and will play a lot more minutes.

Even Horford himself said that he expects to put up much better numbers in the NBA. The UF group did not want anybody to be the guy. They all wanted to be known as the consummate team. I will also not be surprised if Corey Brewer gets off for sweet numbers.

This whole argument about how Horford will not be able to score based on college is ludicrous and truly shows a genuine ignorance. I can go off all day about guys who did significantly better in the NBA than college.

The funny thing is a few knuckeheads are actually touting a player getting his ass handed to him by 18 year old US players and guys on a summer league team that will never play in the NBA. I get the Conley argument, thats easy. The Yi thing is just stupidity at this point.

[drzachary]

I think your post shows quite clearly that the college team's 'system' is an important mitigating circumstance in evaluating a player for the NBA. Since players change so frequently in college, the coach and the system tend to be the static part of the team identity. Players learn a system as best they can in a short amount of time.

Also, coaches tend to stick with what works. That's why sometimes your high-potential youngster sits on the bench while you win a championship, and that same youngster goes #2 in the draft

[Guest Walter]

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Also, coaches tend to stick with what works. That's why sometimes your high-potential youngster sits on the bench while you win a championship, and that same youngster goes #2 in the draft

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Boy, if we have the same "success" with Horford as we have with MW, we'll be an 8th seed within at least 4 years. Good grief, I hope this was sarcasm. If Yi goes off like Paul or Deron O-R Horford pulls a MW, I expect mass internet cred hari-kari.

W

[drzachary]

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Also, coaches tend to stick with what works. That's why sometimes your high-potential youngster sits on the bench while you win a championship, and that same youngster goes #2 in the draft

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Boy, if we have the same "success" with Horford as we have with MW, we'll be an 8th seed within at least 4 years. Good grief, I hope this was sarcasm. If Yi goes off like Paul or Deron O-R Horford pulls a MW, I expect mass internet cred hari-kari.

W

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Coaches stick with what works. Roy Williams stuck with his plan and won a national championship. Do you not think a national championship could be considered a success?

[TexasPete]

Because Walter supports a project like Yi over the more polished and skilled Horford, he resorts to stupid comparisons. Why would you bring in a comp of Horford to Marvin? There is no correlation between the two players.

In fact, they don't even remotely play the same game. What is really interesting is that his guy (Yi) is almost identical to Marvin in terms of position and playing style...and the fact that they need some time to develop. The similaries between Marvin and Yi are certainly more pronounced.

He doesn't see this? Instead, a comp of Horford to Marvin. Sometims here you just have to laugh it off.

[Guest Walter]

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Coaches stick with what works. Roy Williams stuck with his plan and won a national championship. Do you not think a national championship could be considered a success?

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Because he drafted the player most liek him in the 2007 draft.

I guess we should have drafted Humphrey or Green at 11 to play for us given this rationale.

W

[BusBoyIsBack]

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Why is that guys like Boozer can play along side Jay Williams, Mike Dunleavy Jr., Duhon, and still be a volume scorer?

Or why a guy like Laettner could play along side Grant HIll, Bobby Hurley, Thomas Hill, Billy Macaffrey, and Antonio Lang and still be a volume scorer?

Or why a guy like Larry Johnson can play alongside of guys like Stacey Augmon, Ackles, Anderson Hunt, and Greg Anthony and still be a volume scorer?

Or how Sam Perkins could play alongside of Jordan, Worthy, and Black and still be a volume scorer??

The problem my friend is that you don't understand the college game.

There have been plenty of volume scorers on stacked teams. Either you have it or you don't. There are no excuses... You show me a guy who can't get 20 points as a college player, and you have shown me a guy who probably won't do it as a pro either. That's the bottom line.

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The problem is that YOU don't understand.

YOU think PPG determines how a player's game will translate at the next level which is an absolute joke. That's about the most useless stat when evaluating a player.

Like I have said several times and will continue to say, FG% is a much more accurate measurement of success especially for a big man.

Anybody can take 500 or 600 shots to pad their stats.

But can they score efficiently?

Al Horford was an efficient scorer shooting 61% his two years at Florida.

He didn't have to score 20 PPG. No one on that team did, and no one on that team was selfish which is why UF was the most efficient scoring team in the nation two years in a row and a big part of the reason why they were the first ever starting 5 to win back to back championships

[Guest Walter]

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Because Walter supports a project like Yi over the more polished and skilled Horford, he resorts to stupid comparisons. Why would you bring in a comp of Horford to Marvin? There is no correlation between the two players.

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I didn't start the comparison and in fact I diminished it. I said that while Horford vs Yi wasn't the same comparison as MW vs Paul/Deron it was still a mistake.

In the 2005 draft, hype was ALL MW had and he was being compared to almost unquestionably proven PURE Pgs we needed. In this draft, both Horford and Yi have hype behind them. Horford the usual national championship buzz and Yi the best international player buzz. Horford may be the more proven player TO US in internet land but I doubt he is overall, especially considering Hrofrd AT NBA CENTER. I believe Yi has significantly more talent, skills, a more varied skill set, a skill set we need more, overall more superstar potential and is a consistent mismatch advantage in the NBA. I also think we need a superstar and a consistent mismatch advantage along with the league being built around superstars and mismatch advantages.

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He doesn't see this? Instead, a comp of Horford to Marvin. Sometims here you just have to laugh it off.

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Read again my post and retract your statement please. This is the sort of baseless and actually in this case erroneous personal BS that one shouldn't want to associate themselves with.

W

[BusBoyIsBack]

None of you have even seen Yi play so how could you definitively say that taking Horford over him is a mistake????

And in the clips that we do see him play he is CLEARLY a face up forward who is a slasher over a low post player and he ESPECIALLY doesn't look effective in the low post DEFENSIVELY which is why I knocked him down a peg on my want list after watching the Finals.

It reminded me that if you want to win a championship you need a post player who is capable of playing not only on the offensive end, but the defensive end as well.

Outside of the Jordan Era, EVERY championship team has had a true low post presence.

Yi's offense in the post is incredibly raw and his defense is even more raw.

How could you possibly say given those circumstances that he's a better player for this team?

[AtLaS]

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I said that while Horford vs Yi wasn't the same comparison as MW vs Paul/Deron it was still a mistake.

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You're right, the 2007 draft was a mistake because Horford couldn't score in the game that he hasn't played yet.

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I believe Yi has significantly more talent, skills, a more varied skill set, a skill set we need more, overall more superstar potential and is a consistent mismatch advantage in the NBA.

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If you mean Yi has more perimeter skills than Horford, than I agree. Personally, I'd much rather my PF be banging down low and shooting impressive FG%, rather than one who will get manhandled defensively inside and jacks 3's.

[Guest Walter]

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None of you have even seen Yi play so how could you definitively say that taking Horford over him is a mistake????

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I hadn't seen Bargnani "play yet" whatever that means (although I watched video clip and game footage of both he and Yi) but I have seen enough to make judgements about their professional potential relative to other prospects.

W

[BusBoyIsBack]

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The Hype machine did a good job of exaggerating his body... by saying he's "the most NBA ready". In other words, he has good size and being in college another year won't make him any better than he is now...

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Yep having an NBA-ready body means you can't improve your body any more. Wow just wow. Do you realize how ridiculous some of the statements you are making sound?

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I think we fell for the trick. He didn't look good against real NBA quality Centers like Morris and Oden. He didn't stop real NBA quality Forwards like JWright and Thornton. All of these guys had close to career highs when playing UF.

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Julian Wright is a SMALL FORWARD and the assignment of COREY BREWER. That game our big men were also in FOUL TROUBLE. My goodness the absurdity continues.

Oh and funny you say "close" to career highs because Al Thornton DID have a career high against Shelden Williams. In fact I'd love to check the stat line in Duke's games because although he did block a lot of shots, blocking 3 shots per game doesn't make up for getting scored on 10 other occasions by the opposing player.

As far as Oden "owning" Horford, Horford was every bit as sensational as Oden in the two meetings and was the 2nd best player in the championship game. Meanwhile there were times like vs LSU when Shelden Williams didn't even look like the top 4 most intriguing player on the floor.

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When you play Center in a zone, all defensive assignments that score inside are your responsibility and he just didn't do enough to warrant us picking him for his defense. Offensively, again, not a volume scorer. I could get excited if he was like Shareef coming out of Cal, but he's not. I could get excited if he was like Okafor coming out of college, but he's not. The point is that he has the body but not the game of "the most NBA ready player" and because of that, I fear that we have a guy who could be a good rebounder but not much else.

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Do you understand math? To be a volume scorer you have to be a volume shooter. How the hell can you score 20 PPG on the number of field goal attempts Horford took per game? Sure maybe if he improved his FT shooting he could have scored a couple more PPG, but my goodness you don't seem to understand A)How the UF offense worked and B)The concept of field goal attempts vs field goal percentage

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I want point out the reasons why we should have gone with allstar potential... because it's obvious.

However, I will say this.. Shelden is due. If we play him at Center, I think he will be just what we need... Not a big time scorer, but a guy who plays good positional defense and can rebound. I realized how good he can be believe it or not when he matchedup with the Wizards and the Cavs... Against the Wizards, he just pummeled E. Thomas and Brendan Heywood.. Which is why I had to wonder about people who wanted to trade for Heywood. Shelden pushed Heywood all over the floor that night. Then a few games later, we played Cleveland (fighting for PO position) and he was matchedup up with Gooden and later Varejo... He pushed Gooden all around the court and He played a very physical game with Varejo and Big Z... Even though Varejo scored, it was a hard game for him. You could see Shelden leaning on him. I think the other games were against the Celtics, but that's not saying much.. I think Jefferson got hurt in the middle of the game and he matched with Powe and that other guy...I can't remember if Shelden played that whole game.

The point is that with Shelden's skillset already on the team, getting AL was duplication without much progress.

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So because Shelden had his way with two bums he is a great rebounder and a better one that Horford?

Horford grabbed as many rebounds per 40 minutes as Greg Oden. He barely grabbed less rebounds than Shelden in school and he played less minutes and had to share his totals with another top 10 draft pick, and another guy who is significantly better than Shelden.