Here's the real question...

[Diesel]

When has YOUTH ever won a championship. Hell, when has youth ever came close to winning a championship? Championships are won by veterans. Like it or not. I can't call a whole lot of young teams to step up and win a championship or come close.

The only team that comes to mind is Orlando... A young team with 2 1st round picks and the funny thing is that they went out and got Horace Grant to make that championship run and they got swept in the finals!

This is why the move that Boston just made is a good one!

[Vafan]

On paper it is a good team. But, Pierce and Allen has been injury prone lately. Age is creeping up on them.

[Diesel]

Well, Pierce is still relatively young, but Allen is definitely a question mark. I kinda relate this team to the Houston Rockets with Hakeem, Barkley, Pippen, and Drexler. It's a shame that Barkley couldn't win one with Houston, but that team was too old, but even then, those guys were 35 and 36... These guys are 30, 32, and 31.. If they can keep the injuries off and play a guy like Big Baby and the other young guys then maybe this team will be just as good as they look on paper.

[Gray Mule]

Agree. Would love to have a great vet to add to the Hawks.

How about a vet P.G. named "Speedy" who has surgery on

his bad knee and is expected to fully recover. (We can

only hope)

Or, how about young vet Joe Johnson, who missed the last

part of last season, due to injure. Is he back 100%?

Seriously, how do vets become vets? By all the experience

they gain by playing NBA ball. Hawks have had the

youngest, least experienced team for a while now.

On the upside, these young guys are on their way to

the status of vets. Not because of age, but their

experience in the NBA.

Sure the Hawks are still very young. In # of minutes

played, we've probably got the youngest vet players

anywhere. Now, as Diesel says, if we could somehow

add that one great vet player to the mix, WOW!

Look what the Braves just did - Added an all star

at 1st base. A move like that would be great for

their basketball buddies, wouldn't it !!!

[Diesel]

I was reflecting on the 90's braves... 14 years of winning the pennant. Probably the best team run in the History of Sports aside from the Boston Celtics. Anyway, I realize that Basketball is far different than Baseball because of two reasons:

1. The ability of one player to dominate a game.

2. Farm System.

I think however, that one of the things that the Braves did can translate... The best Braves team was a team that featured the young guys playing with Terry Pendelton. I think having a veteran player who can still play at an allstar level can help this Hawks team.

The other day, somebody suggested a trade for JO. Mainly because he's on the blocks. However, I still think a JO or a Gasol would be a great pickup for us.

[Traceman]

Boston was. Ainge has made a bunch of trades and draft picks up until this point in an effort to go young but most of the moves have been bad. When they blatantly tanked at the end of last season and still didn't get Oden or Durant, I think he realized that he was likely out of time with regard to a youth movement because no one was going to wait to see if the young guys could win.

I thought that the Ray Allen move by itself was questionable and I would have thought that this move for KG without that move for Ray Allen was questionable. But together, the moves make perfect sense.

Boston still has some holes to fill but I think they went from being the worst team in the EC to a contender in the EC in one season.

[KB21]

While it is true that youth doesn't win championships, most championship teams build their foundation through the draft. You rarely see teams use free agency and the veteran trade market as the base towards building their foundation to a championship. Free agency and trades were meant to augment the draft, not replace it.

The San Antonio Spurs built their championship years through the draft. They got David Robinson in the 1988 draft, and they got Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobli in the late 90s to early 00 drafts.

Even though Miami traded for Shaq and signed Gary Payton, Jason Williams, and trade for James Posey, they still drafted Dwyane Wade, who is the player that is their foundation.

Even going back to the Chicago Bulls championship days, Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen were players that were brought in through the draft. The Bulls traded for Pippen on draft day, and they drafted Jordan as well as Horace Grant.

[Diesel]

Quote:

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You rarely see teams use free agency and the veteran trade market as the base towards building their foundation to a championship.

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You have pointed out two instances... However, I have to question that statement. When Detroit went to build their championship team, they put youth on the bench and ignored it. Their team was mainly Wallace, Wallace, Billups, and Rip... all players that they traded for.

The Shaq and the Lakers regime was built on trades and FAcy..

I think this is the statement you have been looking for... Dominant bigs and gamebreaking players are normally drafted... However, even after you draft such a player, you trade and FAcy a team around them that can win. It's very simple.. teams that draft great players don't usually trade them.

[Wretch]

I think that Detroit, like Orlando, are another of those teams that don't fit into the mold of how a traditional winning team is built. Joe basically went out and picked up all the spare parts that nobody wanted and surrounded those guys with hard working/high character guys (not counting Sheed lol). Those guys didn't really have a star (like every other championship team) and they didn't build it through the draft. But like Orlando in the youth example, they are simply an exception to the rule.

Generally speaking...you do build your core through the draft and you do surround them with vets later on. Seems like I've been singing this song since BK took over, but...we gotta clear out the logjam at 3/4 and I think using those valuable young pieces to reel in a vet is the best way to go.

The bigger question though...are we stable enought to be talking about deals? When we don't know when this ownership mess will be resolved. We may just have to sit back and deal with the cards we got.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

But the core that you're talking about, only consist of about 2 - 3 players at best.

JJ - Smoove - Marvin could be the core of this team, but we'd still have to trade or bring in other guys to put us over the hump.

Chicago: Jordan - Pippen - Grant were the core of the 3 early championship teams. That early team definitely built their dynasty through the draft, adding complimentary players like BJ Armstrong, Will Perdue, and Stacey King.

Jordan - Pippen - Rodman were the core of the last 3 titles. But of those guys, only Jordan, Pippen, Jason Caffey and Toni Kukoc were guys who were originally drafted by the Bulls. Those last 3 titles were a team full of mercenaries. ( Ron Harper, Rodman, Steve Kerr, Luc Longley, Randy Brown, Scott Burrell, Bill Wennington, etc )

The same goes with the Laker teams that won the 3 straight titles in 200 - 02. Kobe, AC Green and Fisher were the only guys acquired through the draft, that got major playing time. The other guys? Mercenaries ( Shaq, Glen Rice, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Ron Harper ( again ), Brian Shaw, etc ). The following year they add Horace Grant and JR "illegal cellphone" Rider to the merc list. Then it was Samaki Walker, Lindsey Hunter, and the 90s version of Joe Johnson ( Mitch Richmond ), to the mix.

Diesel says it correctly. The draft is usually where you get that impact/gamebreaker type of player. But championships are usually built and won by the guys you can bring in via free agency and trades.

This is also why the Hawks should NEVER do most of the idiotic trades posted on Hawksquawk. When you trade away young talent, you do EXACTLY how Boston did it. You trade it away to bring in STAR talent. Not another role player to round out a roster.

You never trade a Childress or a Marvin for some of the mediocre players posted on this site over the years ( Ridnour, Magloire, Steve Blake, Petro, etc ). You always trade guys like that in some sort of package deal to bring a star player to your team, that may not have had the right people around him to get it done with his old team.

[leftwich]

Quote:

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Even though Miami traded for Shaq and signed Gary Payton, Jason Williams, and trade for James Posey, they still drafted Dwyane Wade, who is the player that is their foundation.

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You can just as easily say that the Celtics traded for Ray Ray and KG, but that they drafted Pierce.

[Wretch]

...and I don't think that I disagree with that. The core of winning teams is drafted and built around. Sometimes that core is 1-2 players, sometimes it's 2-3 players...but the answer is the same. You find the heart and soul of your team (through the draft) and surround them with capable veteran talent. Every team that has won anything (in recent history anyway) has done that - except Detroit.

As for the substance of the trades mentioned here, and much of what BK has done, it's a bunch of lateral moves. We need to trade away everybody, but a power move is neccessary IMO to put us over the top and I think we're at that point now.

But will BK finally put something of substance together and/or we even be able to? That's another story altogether. My gut tells me he rides with his drafted team until we lose some to FAcy and/or BK gets fired.

[Diesel]

I think you can trade core players for core players.

I think one of the problems we have is that we've duplicated position and neglected position. I would have traded Marvin for a C or a PG... I think now, we are closer to what we need to be than we have ever been. I love the addition of Acie and I hope that Speedy comes back healthy. If so, even with teams getting better in the East, I think we will be in contention. That of course is if everybody else is healthy.

Right now, I would take some time to evaluate what we have and see if it's neccessary to make a move for Gasol or JO.

[Final_quest]

I think Boston will be contenders, but they are paper champions right now. I think more teams have failed at buying a championship than succeeded. Even Mark Cuban's teams have had the core players come from the draft. The Yankees are the ultimate example, you just cannot buy a championship no matter how deep your pocket book is.

No excuses for this Boston team or KG. Will this team be more like the Pippen/Barkely Houston team or is this like Miami bringing in Shaq for a couple title runs?

[AHF]

Quote:

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I think Boston will be contenders, but they are paper champions right now. I think more teams have failed at buying a championship than succeeded. Even Mark Cuban's teams have had the core players come from the draft. The Yankees are the ultimate example, you just cannot buy a championship no matter how deep your pocket book is.

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Most championship teams are a mix of the two. Here are some champions were the best player was not home grown over the last 30 years:

2003-04 Detroit Pistons

2001-02 LA Lakers

2000-01 LA Lakers

1999-00 LA Lakers

1982-83 Philadelphia 76ers

1979-80 LA Lakers

1977-78 Washington Bullets

That is a large enough % to make it worth a gamble - particularly if the alternative is to be mediocre and not truly good or bad.