Marvin Williams

[thesheedera]

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Well, i have the requirement staying with the same team because there are players who were not used or not used correctly with one team, goes to another and all the sudden blow up. Tracy McGrady for instance...Gerald Wallace also. These guys got from under bad coaching into a situation where either they played more or they played a different position and they flowered.

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Not that it's all that important, but the original post mentioned nothing about Marvin becoming a superstar for teh Hawks, just that he'd be a superstar.

Getting out from under bad coaching would do our ENTIRE team some good. But you would never allow someone to suggest that what's been holding Marvin back from stardom is simply bad coaching, so why is it allowable for other players?

[atlien]

Rashard didn't do anything until his 3rd year.

The main difference between the 2 is that Marvin was asked to play a lot of minutes his 1st and 2nd seasons (especially his 2nd), whereas Lewis only played 19 mpg his 2nd season (you're stats were incorrect).

It's not really on Marvin that he was asked to play big minutes before he was entirely ready (35 mpg as a 19-20 year old is a lot).

Lewis' 3rd season (the one where he emerged was): 35 mpg, 14.8 ppg, 7 rpg, 1.5 apg).

I expect Marvin to have very similar production this year (altho maybe less rebounds and more assists).

Then, after that year, Rashard went up by about 2 ppg each year. I also expect this out of Marvin, but only time will tell.

The biggest difference is that Rashard developed a 3-point shot, and Marvin has yet to do that. Hopefully he's on his grind working on that.

[Diesel]

Check out the playoffs of his second year.

I think that was the time when he was allowed to step up and was given more than the measly 17 mpg.

[atlien]

Not to get in to depth here as far as development goes, but from watchin Rashard a lot the past couple seasons, he is the player I most see Marvin resembling (Jamison a bit too).

Rashard STILL isnt assertive enough. It's been a long learning process for him. Maybe thatll change now that he is such a big part of the Magic.

Each player's development is unique. Lewis had the proto-typical 3rd-4th year breakout. I think Marvin does the same (and I know you dont Diesel). So, we'll agree to disagree, and, for the sake of the Hawks, we'll both hope I am right .

Marvin Williams will be a fun guy to cheer for too. Just wait.

[Diesel]

We disagree...

But don't be fooled.

Lewis improved stats came with more time playing. Moreover, I think it's a disservice to say that because Lewis improvement didn't show in the regular season til his third year, that Marvin's will do differently. First off, in his second Year, Lewis only started 8 games and averaged 19 mpg. However, in his 3rd year he started 78 games and average 35 mpg. So let's not act like Marvin hasn't been getting Starts or Marvin hasn't been playing big minutes. There's a definite correlation for Lewis mpg and his stats...

Why is that?

Because the Sf position is the easiest position in basketball. For those who cry that Marvin needs development time, my question for you all is WHY?? It's the easiest position in basketball. He has had the body for the position since he was at Carolina. His aggressiveness is what's holding him back and that's something that you really can't change!

[Johnnybravo4]

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Here's your Homework... Find one star in NBA History that took 5-6 years to develop when he was:

1. With the same team.

2. Showed a lack of aggressiveness that Marvin Shows.

Then get back to us!

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1. Rashard Lewis.

Now, you'll prolly argue he isnt a star, but he sure did just get paid like one (and has made the all-star game).

The dudes have very similar games (6 '9ish forwards who can handle the ball like a guard and stroke it and also take it the rim). Both came into the league around the same age. Both have put up very similar stats and have progressed in very similar ways their first few seasons.

Go look at the stats. Very good comparison there.

2. Joe Johnson

Now, I'm not sure why your qualification about staying with the same team really matters. So, throwing that out, this is a good comparison too.

I have friends from Boston who remember watching Joe and thinking we would amount to NOTHING as an NBA player. Too timid. Lacked assertiveness. Looked scared out there. Sound familiar??

I think Marvin is the same way. A really nice, young kid who needs to learn to be nasty among the big boys to really utilize his skills.

I expect this out of him in the next year or so, much like Rashard and Joe.

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Add to that Scotty Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Steve Nash

[atlien]

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We disagree...

But don't be fooled.

Lewis improved stats came with more time playing. Moreover, I think it's a disservice to say that because Lewis improvement didn't show

in the regular season

til his third year, that Marvin's will do differently. First off, in his second Year, Lewis only started 8 games and averaged 19 mpg. However, in his 3rd year he started 78 games and average 35 mpg. So let's not act like Marvin hasn't been getting Starts or Marvin hasn't been playing big minutes. There's a definite correlation for Lewis mpg and his stats...

Why is that?

Because the Sf position is the easiest position in basketball. For those who cry that Marvin needs development time, my question for you all is WHY?? It's the easiest position in basketball. He has had the body for the position since he was at Carolina. His aggressiveness is what's holding him back and that's something that you really can't change!

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Um, hold-up dude. Don't act so confident in something you really dont know about (you could only say what you said if you were actively watching Sonics games at the time; you were not, and thus you cannot be sure).

It could also very well be that Rashard Lewis wasn't ready for those type of minutes his 2nd year, and this is why he didn't play heavy minutes (i.e. had he played the minutes Marvin played his 2nd year, he may have really struggled.. which if he put up Marvin's 2nd year numbers, actually wouldnt be that bad of a struggle, but... The point is that you don't know why Rashard did or didn't play minutes his 2nd year).

But then, perhaps he took steps as that season went on, in the playoffs, and in the offseason, so that, in his 3rd year, he finally was ready for big minutes, and got them. At this point he performed, not necessarily because he magically got minutes (that had he gotten in his 2nd year, also wouldve been productive), but because he had DEVELOPED more as a player (and this is why he got the minutes).

The thing is, you don't know why he didnt play his 2nd year. It couldve been (and most likely was) that he wasnt entirely ready for big minutes. You act like had he gotten minutes his 2nd year like Marvin did, he wouldve performed on par with his 3rd year numbers. THERE'S NO BASIS TO SAY THAT. Most likely, he wasnt ready yet much of his 2nd season, and thats why he didnt get minutes.

My point is that, we should all understand that Marvin was not entirely ready for big minutes the last 2 seasons. He was FORCED to play such big minutes b/c of a flawed and overly young roster. Now, dont get me wrong, I think it has helped his development to throw him in the mix early. But, at the same time, most 19-20 year olds would also struggle in the same position as him (lots of responsibility, a low-quality team, no Vets, no depth, bad coaching, no interior D).

I mean, I understand a lot of you expected a lot from Marvin right away, but I for one didnt. I expected a lot from him starting in his 3rd-4th seasons WHEN HE WAS FINALLLY DEVELOPED ENOUGH TO WARRANT BIG MINUTES. So, if Marvin doesn't take a big step this season, I will be disappointed.

But yes, the two's situations are entirely comparable. The only difference is that Lewis was not expected to play big minutes before he was ready, whereas Marvin was.

And i've watched a lot of Sonics games. Marvin and Rashard are very comparable players.

[Diesel]

You say I didn't watch the Sonics? Are you sure?

The point is that there is a very logical conclusion to the matter. Lewis' points per game increase with his playing time. That started in his second year playoff series and increased into his third year.

Everybody who wants to say Marvin is going to do just like Lewis really doesn't understand that Lewis played on 19 mpg his second year on a playoff team and he only started 8 games.

Marvin played the easiest position in the game on a injured team, starting probably more than 60 games and playing more than 32 mpg. There is really no relation there. Just more false hope being spread.

The truth is that if there was something there, he had ample opportunity last season to show it!

[atlien]

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You say I didn't watch the Sonics? Are you sure?

The point is that there is a very logical conclusion to the matter. Lewis' points per game increase with his playing time. That started in his second year playoff series and increased into his third year.

Everybody who wants to say Marvin is going to do just like Lewis really doesn't understand that Lewis played on 19 mpg his second year on a playoff team and he only started 8 games.

Marvin played the easiest position in the game on a injured team, starting probably more than 60 games and playing more than 32 mpg. There is really no relation there. Just more false hope being spread.

The truth is that if there was something there, he had ample opportunity last season to show it!

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lol dude, go read my post above (how on earth do you know that Rashard couldve produced with minutes his 2nd seasons). same argument applies. MARVIN WAS NOT READY FOR THOSE MINUTES THAT HE PLAYED.

K? Argument over until we see him this season.

(and yes, I dont think youve watched many Sonics games b/c theyll leave you scratching your head about why Rashard STILL isnt assertive enough on the court)

If you come back with the same ish, "Lewis produced with more minutes," I'll continue to point to my above argument.

[Buzzard]

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About Rashard Lewis, his situation was nothing like Marvin's aside from the fact that he was young coming to Seattle. His second year, his team made the playoffs, he played 31 mpg, scored 15 ppg, 6.2 rpg, and shot 44.2 rpg. When you look at it closely, the main difference to Lewis was that his shooting percentage increase a little.

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He meets your original requirements to the tee.

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1. With the same team.

2. Showed a lack of aggressiveness that Marvin Shows.

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Lewis' 3rd season (the one where he emerged was): 35 mpg, 14.8 ppg, 7 rpg, 1.5 apg).

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The above is pretty much what Marvin did the last two months of his 2nd year; which also matches up well with what Lewis did his 2nd year in the playoffs.

Next thing you will say is Lewis's playoff stats mean more than Marvin's stats at the end of last season. As if Marvin has control over us being in the playoffs.

One other matter you ignore, Lewis was on a obviously better coached and more experienced team. Something I heard a long time ago, the best way to learn how to win is to play with winners.

Lewis had a lot more help, coaching wise and with veteran leadership. Marvin is doing ok and he will meet Lewis's 3rd year numbers easily.