Chillz vs. Marvin...why not?

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

I guess Royal Ivey was a good PG in 05-06 since he started 66 games.

---

I hope that you are equating Josh Smith's rookie contribution to that of Royal Ivey! But if you are, may God have mercy on your soul!

Quote:

---

Smith started 59 games, Childress 44. Childress still received more playing time, scored more, and shot a higher percentage.

---

Childress averaged 10.1 ppg and Smith 9.7 but you forgot about bpg. Everything else was pretty even. But where you keep going wrong is just looking at stat and they don't always tell the who story. What Woodson eventually realized is that josh Smith influenced the game with his presence and the threat of paint defense.

Quote:

---

And didn't you say Smith took Chill's starting job 30 games in? So how did he start 44 games?

---

He started and Childress went back to the bench. Then Antoine Walker got traded, Harrington went to the 4 and Smith went to the 3. Childress then went back into the starting line up at the 2 with Smith at the 3. Do you understand now?

[khaos7]

I think some people are missing my point. It's not about upside, where somebody got drafted, etc. My argument was, which guy gives you the best chance to win. In my opinion, it's Childress. IMHO he's the better player, now. Better talent is probably Marvin. I don't think Marvin has been made to earn anything since we drafted him. Childress had his rough spots and struggles. But he's earned him minutes. At this stage of the game, I don't believe its blaphemous to say Chillz should start, if he outplays Marvin in camp. I'm not bashing Marvin. But he shouldn't be entitled to anything.

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

omg you are clueless.

---

Notice how I don't respond to your constant childish insults even though most of your information is totally erroneous!

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

I hope that you are equating Josh Smith's rookie contribution to that of Royal Ivey! But if you are, may God have mercy on your soul!

---

Obviously that one blew right over your head.

Quote:

---

Childress averaged 10.1 ppg and Smith 9.7 but you forgot about bpg. Everything else was pretty even. But where you keep going wrong is just looking at stat and they don't always tell the who story. What Woodson eventually realized is that josh Smith influenced the game with his presence and the threat of paint defense.

---

So Woodson realized Smith's presence was better than Chills, yet Childress played more minutes? OK

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

So Woodson realized Smith's presence was better than Chills, yet Childress played more minutes? OK

---

So you don't think that minutes played has anything to do with fouls, injuries, game situation, or match up? Only who the coach thinks is a better player? Oh O.K.

[Diesel]

Man... You guys don't remember do you??

This is what happened. We started off with Al/Walker... we played Chillz some at 2, but he started slowly. We then moved Smoove in there and he started getting recognition because of his finishes and shot blocking.

After that... Walker and Harrington went down. So it was Smoove and Chillz playing the 3 and 2 respectively.. And down the stretch they looked good. So good that it made no sense to go out and draft Marvin... because we had 5 guys who could play Sf and no real PG or C.

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

Man... You guys don't remember do you??

---

You are talking to that atlas poster right!

Quote:

---

Walker and Harrington went down.

---

You are correct. Walker got injured and then traded at the end of the year in a sign and trade.

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

So you don't think that minutes played has anything to do with fouls, injuries, game situation, or match up? Only who the coach thinks is a better player? Oh O.K.

---

Childress averaged more fouls per game and STILL played more minutes, so no, fouls were not the problem. Childress only missed 2 games, and Smith only missed 8, injuries were not a problem. Game situation and matchup? If Smith was the better player (as you are trying to say), his minutes would have still been more after averaging out over an entire season. It's also funny hearing this from probably the biggest Smith basher on this board, you bash his blocks more than anyone and consider them not meaningful, yet in this conversation it's your primary argument.

You are a blind Marvin fan and if you can't admit that Childress was better last year, than you are completely clueless and know nothing about basketball, which I have already come to that conclusion anyway.

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

you bash his blocks more than anyone and consider them not meaningful, yet in this conversation it's your primary argument.

---

You have me mixed up with someone else! I've never bashed Smith's blocks.

Quote:

---

You are a blind Marvin fan and if you can't admit that Childress was better last year, than you are completely clueless and know nothing about basketball, which I have already come to that conclusion anyway.

---

My point is that I have plenty of company which includes the coaching staff, owners, and GM. They as you have stated probably knows more about basketball and the Hawks than message board posters including yourself!

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

You have me mixed up with someone else! I've never bashed Smith's blocks.

---

So why exactly do you bash Smith so much, while praising Marvin?

Quote:

---

My point is that I have plenty of company which includes the coaching staff, owners, and GM.

---

They wouldn't think Marvin played better last season than Childress. They probably have higher hopes for Marvin though because he DOES have more potential, which I would agree with. Just because he has better form, is more athletic, and has more potential doesn't mean that he played better last season.

[TexasPete]

And you are a blind Childress fan. If Chill is not at his ceiling then he is damn close. Guess what else? He won't be a Hawk much longer because somebody has to go due to extensions coming and a forward glut.

So, you want to start a player near his ceiling that won't likely be on our team much longer...over a 20 year old guy who scored 13.1 ppg (17ppg the last month), and is 3 full years younger...oh, and said player will be a Hawk for a long time.

Yeah, your position makes sense. Have you ever known a 20 year old player who scored 13ppg to get a lot better?

[AtLaS]

How am I a blind Childress fan? I hated the Childress pick, I was pised as soon as it happened. What's wrong with saying that he played better last season and he deserves to start over Marvin until proven otherwise? Marvin being younger has nothing to do with who's better NOW, I want the player on the floor that gives us the best chance to win. If that's Marvin, than great, but based on last season it isn't.

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

So why exactly do you bash Smith so much?

---

Shot selection and senseless turn-overs

Quote:

---

They probably have higher hopes for Marvin though because he DOES have more potential, which I would agree with. Just because he has better form, is more athletic, and has more potential doesn't mean that he played better last season.

---

So it had nothing to do with the fact that he donimated summer league averaging 25 ppg 10 rpg shooting 55% from the field and had a great preseason until he broke his hand. Oh O.k.

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

So it had nothing to do with the fact that he donimated summer league averaging 25 ppg 10 rpg shooting 55% from the field and had a great preseason until he broke his hand. Oh O.k.

---

Louis Williams averaged 27 ppg and like 6 assists on great FG shooting last year, I guess we should expect him to be the next AI? Summer league has absolutely NOTHING to do with production in a regular season game.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Quote:

---

Man... You guys don't remember do you??

This is what happened. We started off with Al/Walker... we played Chillz some at 2, but he started slowly. We then moved Smoove in there and he started getting recognition because of his finishes and shot blocking.

After that... Walker and Harrington went down. So it was Smoove and Chillz playing the 3 and 2 respectively.. And down the stretch they looked good. So good that it made no sense to go out and draft Marvin... because we had 5 guys who could play Sf and no real PG or C.

---

LOL @ this. You make the claim that we didn't need Marvin, because Smoove and Chillz were playing well down the stretch. Do you remember who else was playing well down the stretch?

Tyronn Lue.

Lue was good in March and April of that season as well, even though we only won 3 games after the all-star break. In fact, he was better than both Chill and Smoove. Did that mean that we didn't need a PG as well?

If we'd been lucky enough to get the top pick, Andrew Bogut would probably be our center right now. And when Bogut wouldn't have panned out, I guess people would be crying about not drafting Paul, Deron or Marvin ( if he happened to play well with another team )

Once Bogut was off the board, Marvin was picked because:

1) we needed talent, regardless of position . . hell, we needed bodies period

2) Harrington was going into his last year of his contract, and we probably wasn't giving him a big money extension, so he would most likely be gone by the next summer.

3) Guys like Hughes, Allen, and Redd never really considered ATL a destination, even if they got max money from us.

4) There was no talk of JJ on the radar at the time of the draft.

5) Very few "experts" thought that neither Paul nor Deron would be star caliber PGs. Those same people thought Marvin could be a star in 3 - 4 years.

Whether people believe it was the right pick or not, I've always understood why the Hawks chose Marvin over the PGs.

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

Once Bogut was off the board, Marvin was picked because:

1) we needed talent, regardless of position . . hell, we needed bodies period

---

I considered Paul and Deron the most talented players in the draft. Moreover, you don't pick a dime a dozen Sf over a PG.

Quote:

---

2) Harrington was going into his last year of his contract, and we probably wasn't giving him a big money extension, so he would most likely be gone by the next summer.

---

Harrington played PF. Marvin doesn't.

Quote:

---

3) Guys like Hughes, Allen, and Redd never really considered ATL a destination, even if they got max money from us.

---

That's neither here nor there... i.e. not relevant.

Quote:

---

4) There was no talk of JJ on the radar at the time of the draft.

---

Again, not relevant.

Quote:

---

5) Very few "experts" thought that neither Paul nor Deron would be star caliber PGs. Those same people thought Marvin could be a star in 3 - 4 years.

---

Back to my original statement, Paul and Deron were the most proven players in the draft. They both had great skillsets, they were PGs.. and at the time, we had several guys who could play Sf: Al, Smoove, Chillz, Diaw, Donta.... My god, Sf is the most ubiquitous position in all of basketball. You don't draft a Sf 2nd unless he's Larry Bird or Julius Erving...

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Quote:

---

And you are a blind Childress fan. If Chill is not at his ceiling then he is damn close. Guess what else? He won't be a Hawk much longer because somebody has to go due to extensions coming and a forward glut.

So, you want to start a player near his ceiling that won't likely be on our team much longer...over a 20 year old guy who scored 13.1 ppg (17ppg the last month), and is 3 full years younger...oh, and said player will be a Hawk for a long time.

Yeah, your position makes sense. Have you ever known a 20 year old player who scored 13ppg to get a lot better?

---

50% agree with this.

* Yes, I do think that Chill is kind of at his ceiling. But he'll be a consistent 50% FG shooter, good defender, and a guy capable of giving you 25 - 35 minutes a geme, 11 - 15 ppg, and 5 - 7 rebs. Chill is that "Shane Battier - Ruben Patterson - good enough

* No I don't think there is a glut of forwards that will cause Chill to be traded or not signed. Right now, we have 2 SFs ( Chill and Marvin ). The "gult" is at PF ( Smoove, Horford, ZaZa, and Shelden ). If we get this ownership situation settled this year, the Hawks could easily retain Chill, because I think retaining him is more important than keeping a guy like ZaZa in the future.

I'll say this about Chill. If we don't make the playoffs, he's definitely gone. If we do make the playoffs, and Chill is a key reason why we're successful, the Hawks will probably try to do everything possible to keep him . . at a reasonable price.

But I'm definitely not writing the kid off yet, just because Marvin is being groomed to be the starter at SF. We're still going to need a capable backup SF if we do let Chill go. I guess we can bring back Dijon "mustard" Thompson?

[beav]

Quote:

---

Maybe you haven't seen Marvin attack the rim off the dribble.

I have, it consists of him getting his lunch packed and the team running down loose balls.

---

Now that was funny!

[TexasPete]

Chill will be the odd man out and you can take it to the bank. There is a general glut at forward and Smith can play some 3 in a pinch or with Horford and Shelden together.

This isn't going to be a neat and clean 3 vs. 4 deal. This is a situation where they can't keep everybody and they will hopefully trade him for a 1st round pick or another player who can add value.

We really need help at the two as well. JJ is great but we need a slasher/change of pace two off the bench. We shoot way too many jumpers.

Thats why I would have gone for a Conley at 3 and a Stuckey at 11. I think that would have had a greater impact on the team.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Remember these names Diesel?

true SFs:

- Ken Norman

- Stacey Augmon

- Tyrone Corbin

- Toni Kukoc

- Chris Crawford

- Demarr Johnson

- Glen Robinson

- Boris Diaw

tweeners:

- Al Harrington

- Jimmy Jackson

- LaPhonzo Ellis

- Shareef Abdur-Rahim ( on spot occasions )

- Antoine Walker ( on spot occasions )

currently:

- Joe Johnson ( who plays the 3 on spot occasions )

- Josh Childress

- Marvin Williams

- Josh Smith ( hopefully on spot occasions from now on )

17 guys Diesel.

17 guys that we've played major minutes at SF during some point in their career as a Hawk, to try to replace the great Dominique Wilkins, and give us a star, or even a capable scorer at that position.

And you say the SF position is a "dime a dozen"? Please. It's very hard to find a good SF, or any other position player for that matter, to either build a team around or solidify a team.

I remember the days when Hawk fans would've slit their wrist, just to put Latrell Spreewell in that 3 spot. Just think if we would've added Spree to that 98 - 99 Hawk team that won 31 games in the strike year ( 4th in East )

PG - Mookie

G - Smitty

G/F - Spree

F - Hendu

C - Mutumbo

Instead, we had LaPhonzo Ellis and Chris Crawford at the 3 that year. And isn't it ironic that the team that knocks us out of the 2nd round of the playoffs that year, were the NY Knicks. All of that hard battling with the Pistons in Round 1, just to get swept by the Knicks in Round 2.

And who killed us? Spreewell.

http://www.canoe.ca/NBAPlayoffs99/atl_ny.html

Bottom line is this. At the time when Marvin was drafted, the Hawks had no one on the roster who showed any inkling that he could be a star. And because Marvin was projected to be one, the Hawks had no problem taking him, even though they had all of those SFs on the roster.

It would be like the Blazers passing on Brandon Roy, just because they had Darius Miles, Martell Webster, and Juan Dixon on the roster.

3 years later, it looks as if Smoove could be a star ( if he stays at PF ) to compliment the star we already have in JJ. That limits the amount of touches that Marvin will get, but it shouldn't hamper his development.

If he's still the same type of inconsistent, passive player in 07 - 08, people will start to change their minds about Marvin. This is definitely a proving ground type season for him.