Playing to Win or Playing to Develop?

[Diesel]

I think this is the main question that Hawks fans ought to be searching for an answer to. Are the Hawks playing to win or are they playing to develop. And before we here from the sympathetics.. let me preference this with one truth.. Playing to win and playing to develop are not the same thing. In this world of free agency, you're either doing one or the other. For the past few years, we have taken time out to develop players. The question now is will we put fourth an effort to win games?

Moreover, is the presence of Woody a reminder that we're still in the developmental phase?

[jerrywest]

I hope that answers your question.

[Diesel]

Do you really think Marvin would be starting?

How about Acie??

I think we have players who are better at the position right now..

[jerrywest]

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Do you really think Marvin would be starting?

How about Acie??

I think we have players who are better at the position right now..

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Acie has to prove himself first before he jumps over some of the seasoned veterans. I am sure he eventually will. Don't set up children's trap Diesel. Its hard to trap people who have no agenda.

After looking at the nba/horizon chart any sane person would understand that Mervin fits in with the starting unit much better than Childress. Marvin can shoot from many different areas. Chillz doesn't have the talent to do that. Its more likely that Marvin can overcome his weaknesses than Chillz can.

[Traceman]

players? I think we are still CLEARLY in the developmental stages (You can't be as young as we are and NOT be in the developmental stages). However, I also think that the team is far enough along in the developmental stages that we as fans should expect to see some results in the form of wins. Smoove and Chillz are going into their fourth years and this is about the time we figure out what they are going to be. JJ is just entering his prime. I think we will be a much better team this year but NEXT year is the year I think we will finally make that jump (assuming we get Smoove and Chillz resigned with no other major losses - JJ, Marvin, Horford, Acie, Shelden or Zaza).

[AnakinJoe]

If this is a Marvin question, then keep in mind that last season, he was the 3rd best front court player on the team (and Childress, who I think was better, proved that he could be effective off the bench). This year, Horford has a shot at cracking the top 3 front court players on the team. I personally don't think Marvin can get 28 minutes a game this season by shooting less than 45%, grabbing only 5 boards and playing inconsistent defense. Not if folk stay healthy.

[Diesel]

Let me put it this way... With FAcy, you can't do both...

You're either developing players or you are trying to win.

This is not a Marvin question, this is a franchise question.

Some of the things I would look for moving out of the developing players stage is A NEW COACH. I think Woody was a good developer of players (in some aspects) but I don't know if Woody knows how to win. Another thing to look for in Winning teams is getting Veterans.

Go to the Boston Celtics.. They got out of the developing players business and into the winning games business. We're young now but the question is will this be another year for developing players? Should it be?

My thoughts is that we have enough player currency and we're getting long in the tooth on developing, it's time to start winning.

[Diesel]

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I personally don't think Marvin can get 28 minutes a game this season by shooting less than 45%, grabbing only 5 boards and playing inconsistent defense.

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I like that Joe...

I think there should be standards set for every position IF we are a winning games team...

For instance, I think that there will be a brawl at PF and C for minutes... I would like the bar set at Center that the guy who can play 32 Minutes and get 10pts/9 rebs/ >47% shooting, and consistent defense should be the Starting Center. I also expect that there should be a Brawl for PG... The guy who can get at least 10pts/6 assists/ >46% shooting >37% from three and consistent defense should be the starting PG...

I just hope that we don't show up again to find that the minutes have just been given to the guy that needs developing or that the coach never learns to take advantage of matchups...

[Traceman]

I like letting wide open competition determine minutes. Obviously, you have to take chemistry into account but let the best man win.

The only caveat I would have is that if the competition is even, I would go with the guy with upside. If Horford, Shelden and Zaza are even at Center, I go with Horford. If Marvin and Chillz are even at SF, I go with Marvin. If Acie, Speedy and Lue are even at PG, I go with Acie.

[DrReality]

The clock is ticking and BK and Woody have to do BOTH this year or it won't matter. That's part of the reason they drafted two upper classmen . . . . for their experience.

[AHF]

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Let me put it this way... With FAcy, you can't do both...

You're either developing players or you are trying to win.

* * * *

My thoughts is that we have enough player currency and we're getting long in the tooth on developing, it's time to start winning.

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There is no question we need to turn the corner and start winning. However, I think a good model for winning and developing players in the Chicago Bulls.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The best 5 need to be on the floor from the jump . . no matter who it is. If not, we're going to be 1 - 5 . . 0 - 6 before we know it. No time to play around.

vs Dallas

Harris

Terry

Howard

Nowitski

Dampier

( JT, Dirk, and Howard killed us last year. Probably need to try to outscore them, because we can't stop them. )

@ Detroit

Billups

Hamilton

Prince

Wallace

Nazr ( probably )

( We can play with Detroit. But Stuckey is the x-factor for them now, coming off the bench. Usually when JJ has a bad game against DET, we lose. If he plays great, we win. )

@ New Jersey

Kidd

Jefferson

Carter

Kristic

Magloire

( They have an interesting starting 5 now, if Mags can still hit the boards and play D. Definitely a winnable game though. )

vs Phoenix

Nash

Bell

Marion

Diaw

Amare

( Definitely can't stop these guys. So we have to outscore them. Last year's home game was probably the most entertaining of the year . . even though we lost. )

@ Boston

Rondo

Allen

Pierce

Garnett

Perkins

( That team isn't a juggernaut, especially if you can exploit their bench. Tough game to win on the road though. )

vs Washington

Arenas

Stevenson

Butler

Jamison

Haywood

( Washington is a team we match up with very well. I'd be disappointed if we lost to them in November. )

No excuses this year, unless we're devestated by injuries again. But this year, one or two injuries ( if it isn't JJ ), shouldn't hurt us at all. If we fall too far under .500, Woody needs to get the hook.

That's another parameter you need to set Diesel. If the Hawks fall more than 6 games under .500 at ANY POINT in the season, Woody needs to be canned. So if we start out November with a 4 - 11 record, and JJ isn't hurt, get rid of Woody right away.

I think the rookies have a great shot at winning starting jobs. I won't be disappointed at all to see them thrown into the fire, while the vets do their thing against the other team's 2nd team. I'm not worried about Law at all, because he has no fear whatsoever. The only question these days is if Horford can play center. If he can, we're good to go. If he can't, he'll have to play to his strength and at least be a viable offensive option in the low post.

[Diesel]

When you consider the Bulls... You have to ask, have they ever really been a developing team??

I mean, Tyrus Thomas doesn't start over Ben Wallace!!

There's nobody better than Deng at Sf and there hasn't been.

There's nobody better than Hinrich at the PG and there hasn't been.

There's nobody better than Gordon at the OG and there hasn't been.

I think they tried the development road with Eddie Curry and Tyson Chandler... and I think they found that development stinks. Just like Ben Wallace and Tyrus Thomas.. i think if Chicago had a better veteran, he wouldn't be coming off the bench in leiu of developing a young player. I just don't see Skiles operating that way.

[Peoriabird]

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When you consider the Bulls... You have to ask, have they ever really been a developing team??

I mean, Tyrus Thomas doesn't start over Ben Wallace!!

There's nobody better than Deng at Sf and there hasn't been.

There's nobody better than Hinrich at the PG and there hasn't been.

There's nobody better than Gordon at the OG and there hasn't been.

I think they tried the development road with Eddie Curry and Tyson Chandler... and I think they found that development stinks. Just like Ben Wallace and Tyrus Thomas.. i think if Chicago had a better veteran, he wouldn't be coming off the bench in leiu of developing a young player. I just don't see Skiles operating that way.

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I don't even know where to start with this garbage post! What are you talking about? They developed all of these players with the exception of Ben Wallace!

Ben Gordan continues to be a work in progress! He started only 51 of 82 games last year. And in prior years was coming off the bench while he developed his skills as a 2 guard.

Deng had a break out season last year but prior years, he was developing!

Chris Duhon is still trying to find his niche being a part-time starter while other back court players developed!

2 years ago, they went to the playoffs with Chandler as their starting center!

Hinrich has been swinging between the 1 and 2 has entire career with the Bulls and has finally settled at the 1 for now.

Tyrus Thomas does not play center so he isn't competing with Ben Wallace for playing time. In Fact, he does not have a position yet but the Bulls are getting him more and more minutes to help him develop!

So other than the addition of Wallace and Brown last year, what veterans are you referring too??? And the biggest reason for giving up on Curry and chandler were medical in nature. Curry's heart and Chandler's back.

I don't know what you are trying to say but if you are implying that the Bulls did not build thru the draft and develop their roster, you are very wrong!

[Diesel]

If you don't understand the conversation, stay out.

The issue was not weather these players were drafted, the issue is was there ever a better playing sitting the bench while these players were developed...

The answer is a definite no.

[Swatguy]

This roster is very much developmental. They have to be of the business of winning now. I can only think of two-three teams (Spur, Pistons, Nets) that are Not in a development mode.

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the issue is was there ever a better playing sitting the bench while these players were developed...

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I have know idea what this is you are trying to convey. Please clarify.

[AHF]

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The issue was not weather these players were drafted, the issue is was there ever a better playing sitting the bench while these players were developed...

The answer is a definite no.

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If that is the issue (and I didn't fully understand it that way), then I agree. Giving rookies significant burn to develop them is not a bad idea at all even on a winning team (see Lakers with Kobe). However, they should compete for their starting jobs and good teams typically have a core of veterans that hold those positions until the younger players are ready to step in (see Eddie Jones at the beginning of Kobe's career). With our ownership mess and limited finances, we don't have a core of veterans. When we have had them in the past, they have started (see Al Harrington, Antoine Walker, etc.).

[Diesel]

Usually, teams that develop players will sit better players on the bench in order to give the young players a chance to play. At that point, they have given up on the idea of playing to win.

For instance, I recall Tyson Chandler & Eddy Curry playing and Antonio Davis sitting the bench... before Herb took over coaching the Bulls.

Diop Started several games while Dampiere is the allstar Center.

What exactly has Andrew Bynum done to deserve the start in LAL?

Even here, we told Al Harrington to take a mulligan while Josh Childress and Josh Smith finished off their first season.

It's just something that losing teams do. They stop trying to win and focus on developing young players.

[TexasPete]

Just another anti-Marvin post couched a different way. You must lay awake at night thinking of different ways to post anti-Marvin crap.

If the Hawks ever did trade Marvin you wouldn't know what to do with yourself. Although I'm sure you could incessantly whine about something else.

You are the biggest whiner I've seen on any board by 10X. Just one whine after another. Same topic, different angled whine. Have you ever considered getting a life? Or, a clue?

[Swatguy]

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Usually, teams that develop players will sit better players on the bench in order to give the young players a chance to play. At that point, they have given up on the idea of playing to win.

For instance, I recall Tyson Chandler & Eddy Curry playing and Antonio Davis sitting the bench... before Herb took over coaching the Bulls.

Diop Started several games while Dampiere is the allstar Center.

What exactly has Andrew Bynum done to deserve the start in LAL?

Even here, we told Al Harrington to take a mulligan while Josh Childress and Josh Smith finished off their first season.

It's just something that losing teams do. They stop trying to win and focus on developing young players.

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I see. At this point:

A. Chillz is better than Marvin

B. Zaza and Shelden are better prepared to start than Horford.

3. A healthy Speedy and Lue are more suited to start than Acie.

If we are to win.