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[coachx]

Over the last 3 years what organization has had a tougher coaching situation then the Hawks ?

Woody gets alot of blame but what coach out there has been put in a worse position for 3 consecutive years ? I honestly can't think of one.

The combination of the ownership sutuation, roster turnover, and being the youngest team in the entire league for the last 3 years is a pretty tough pill to take.

Trying to develop players who should still be in college to become your starting foward tandem while at the same time being your #2 and #3 scorers is a lot to put on Smith and Marvin. On top of that ZaZa is only 23 and has started 2 years for us at Center at the ripe age of 21 & 22. Then your starting PGs are injury prone journey men. We basically start 1 allstar with 3 college players and a journy men PG and us fans have been expecting way more then we should with that on the floor.

Seeing of all this makes it difficult to think the Hawks have under achieved under Woody.

I know we get down on him for substitution patterns. This is the year with a deep roster for Woody to prove he can manage playing time.

Now the young guys (Marvin, Smith, and ZaZa) should finally look like seasoned vets this year. With floor time they have had there is no excuse not to show maturity on the floor this year.

[gsuteke]

here is a question for you.

what coach has been given so much talent and done so little with it?

[Gangstur]

One could easily argue they have under-achieved under Woody.

You won't hear anyone argue they have over-achieved.

[coachx]

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here is a question for you.

what coach has been given so much talent and done so little with it?

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What are you talking about ?

Talent ?

What talent ?

We have 2 guys on our roster that would start for most teams. One of wich, Smith did not blow up until just last year. At 22 Smith still makes bone headed plays that would drive most play off tested teams to sit hime more then we do. With our roster we were forced to play young guys big minutes for the sake of developing then for the future rather then immediate returns in the win column.

JJ was not an all star until last year.

Marvin was 19 and 20 the last few years. His "talent" does not amaze anyone.

Chills is a excellent role player but not much else. He could start for a playoff team who plays him with multiple allstars and an MVP candidate. Um, we don't have that yet.

ZaZa was asked to be our starting center at 21 and 22 year old. While ZaZa hustles he is anything but talented ball player. He could be starting post for teams who play a stiff beside another allstar big.

No PG on the roster the last 3 years is deserving of using the word talent in the same sentence as their names. (Lue, Claxton, AJ, Ivey)

However, in your mind the team has loads of talent and has underachieved. We have not even had an allstar on this team for 5 seasons until Smith got there due the injury of other players.

Your flip side question has no merit to me. Almost everyteam in the league has had more talent to work with and more veteran players who know how to win.

[coachx]

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One could easily argue they have under-achieved under Woody.

You won't hear anyone argue they have over-achieved.

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Your right, most homer fans on this board would never admit that. However, there are some rational minds on here.

To better disply the point.....Has the youngest team in the NBA ever made the playoffs in the history of the NBA. If they did was there average age remotely close to the average age of these Hawks ?the last 3 years ?

[coachx]

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here is a question for you.

what coach has been given so much talent and done so little with it?

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I will attempt ot answer your trick question. When it is my opinion Woody has been given less ready to play now talent then other team it make it quite difficult. Below are team I feel have been more talented then us over the last 3 years but have under achieved at lest 2 out of the last years. These teams come to mind right off the cuff.

Seattle - Nate McMillian, Wiese, Hill

NY - Thomas, Brown

CLippers - Dunleavy

Trailblazer - McMillan

Minnesota - 2 coaches

Charlotte - forgot his name at the moment

Clipp had one god year and then flopped

Seattle had one good year and then flopped.

Both teams had multiple players who have been all stars multiple times.

[AtLaS]

BK definitely hasn't given Woody much to work with. That said, Woody hasn't exactly put the players he DOES have in a position to win. Key things he does wrong.

#1: Timed substitutions. No matter what or who we are playing, the same players sub in and sub out at almost the exact same time EVERY game. When playing different teams, sometimes you need to switch that up. For example, Marvin would almost always sub out mid 1st quarter, REGARDLESS of how well he was playing. He'd score 10 straight points, but Woody's stopwatch would go off and he'd take him out, and we wouldn't see him until mid 2nd. Also Royal Ivey starting 60+ games in 05-06, but only playing about 10 minutes per game.

#2: No offensive gameplan. I know we don't have the greatest offensive players, but we have absolutely NO movement or plays ran on offense at ALL. It's basically, give it to JJ or Lue and let them create.

#3: No ability to adjust. He doesn't know how to adjust in certain situations. He'll just stick with the same sub pattern and hope it works.

#4: His insistance on playing Lorenzen Wright. That alone speaks for itself.

I still get sick of his patented "stare" it just annoys me. He seems to not have much control over the team, or if he does, it seems the players don't really buy into it. I'm sure he'd still be a good assistant, but he's clearly overmatched when it comes to head coaching. He just doesn't really know what he's doing.

I'm sure I've left out a few things, but those are key off the top of my head.

[Packfill]

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One could easily argue they have under-achieved under Woody.

You won't hear anyone argue they have over-achieved.

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Your right, most homer fans on this board would never admit that. However, there are some rational minds on here.

To better disply the point.....Has the youngest team in the NBA ever made the playoffs in the history of the NBA. If they did was there average age remotely close to the average age of these Hawks ?the last 3 years ?

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For what it is worth, the average age of the Chicago Bulls last year was less then a year older then the Hawks. Chicago was one of the youngest teams in the league.

[AtLaS]

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One could easily argue they have under-achieved under Woody.

You won't hear anyone argue they have over-achieved.

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Your right, most homer fans on this board would never admit that. However, there are some rational minds on here.

To better disply the point.....Has the youngest team in the NBA ever made the playoffs in the history of the NBA. If they did was there average age remotely close to the average age of these Hawks ?the last 3 years ?

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For what it is worth, the average age of the Chicago Bulls last year was less then a year older then the Hawks. Chicago was one of the youngest teams in the league.

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Yeah but if you take away insignificant pieces that don't get PT or contribute, like Lo Wright, Slava, Ivey's 25, AJ, it's alot more uneven.

[Packfill]

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One could easily argue they have under-achieved under Woody.

You won't hear anyone argue they have over-achieved.

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Your right, most homer fans on this board would never admit that. However, there are some rational minds on here.

To better disply the point.....Has the youngest team in the NBA ever made the playoffs in the history of the NBA. If they did was there average age remotely close to the average age of these Hawks ?the last 3 years ?

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For what it is worth, the average age of the Chicago Bulls last year was less then a year older then the Hawks. Chicago was one of the youngest teams in the league.

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Yeah but if you take away insignificant pieces that don't get PT or contribute, like Lo Wright, Slava, Ivey's 25, AJ, it's alot more uneven.

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Do the Bulls get to discount Malik Allen and Adreian Griffin then?

[coachx]

I agree with all your points. What I am not sure about is the WHY. Why do we have these weaknesses ? Is it just Woody's fault ?

Saying there is no real offensive system is definately a truth but who is to blame ? Is it that we have no PG who has ever run a decent offensive system as the primary floor general and is now asked to do it with a college aged team starting around him ?

Lue and Speedy are not floor generals they are successful as energy players off the bench. Law should be better then both of them at directing the offense. With maturity from our young fowards, coupled with Law, the offense should flow better no matter who is coaching.

The best offensive coach in the world could come in but when the keys are turned over to Lue and Speedy to run a system that starts a 21, 22, and 23 year old it will not look the same way the coach drew it up.

I agree the substition patterns are bad. JJ never gets enough rest b/c Chills is busy backing up Marvin and Salim will shoot you out of game quicker then he shoots you back in a game. Chills is also busy backing up the PG spot b/c Lue and Speedy could not stay on the floor due to injuries. The lack of depth the last few years made us play our youngsters more then they deserved. Hopefully that will help them speed up their development forthe long term.

The inability to adjust is another truth. Is it Woody who fails to adjust or the players who are incapable at adjusting to different styles of NBA play while being college aged ? With the thin roster we have had, the only real personell adjustments we can pull is going big with JJ and Chills together in the back court or go small with Smoove or Sheldon at center. We could change the style of play and the tempo of play but mutch of that falls on the PG to change or set the tempo and style the coach desires. For example we all want to see us run more. However, Lue & AJ simply do not have the wheels to push the ball on the break consistently and Speedy does not have the health. The best guy at pushing the ball and making a fast last season break was the 21 year old Josh Smith. Ouch ! That hurts.

Sure we could mix up the zone and man defense a little more. Sure we could mix up when and how much we double team. That much is soley on Woody. Without a offensive option in the post we are very limited as to what offensive sets are pratical to our players skill sets making the ability to push the ball up the court all the more important. Hopefully Horford will give us the low post scorer to run some 1/2 court sets through and Law will be more efficient at running them.

But then again, others think we have all this talent that was ready to win last year and blame the coach for not being a .500 team. That is just not my perception.

[gsuteke]

in typical Hawksquawk fashion my intent was mistakenly seen as confrontational with that line of questioning.

Woody has been given a crapload of talent to work with. The thing I have to ask myself is have the Hawks improved these players over the past 3 years? If so have they improved alot or just marginally?

[coachx]

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in typical Hawksquawk fashion my intent was mistakenly seen as confrontational with that line of questioning.

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Man, I did not see you as being confrontational in the least. We are all just talking and throwing out ideas.

A fan board should never be taken too seriously. Just trying to have fun and keep the mind active.

[coachx]

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Woody has been given a crapload of talent to work with. The thing I have to ask myself is have the Hawks improved these players over the past 3 years? If so have they improved alot or just marginally?

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To answer your question I think they have definatly improved.

Smith has improved alot

Marvin = marginal improvement

Chills = marginal improvement

Sheldon = this is the year for judgement on improvement

ZaZa = pretty stagnant, I saw no real improvement last year

Horford should equal major improvement over ZaZa and Sheldon in year #1

Law should be major improvement over Speedy and Lue, just not sure if it will be year #1 or year #2 that we see it.

I think most of us agree we are improving individually and as a team. To what extent we are improving is another matter. To assume this young team was ready to make the playoffs last year was wishful thinking by us in my opinion.

[AtLaS]

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Yeah but if you take away insignificant pieces that don't get PT or contribute, like Lo Wright, Slava, Ivey's 25, AJ, it's alot more uneven.

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Do the Bulls get to discount Malik Allen and Adreian Griffin then?

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Sure, but how about we look at starting lineups and 6th man.

Bulls

Hinrich: 26

Gordon: 24

Deng: 22

Brown: 37

Wallace: 33

Nocioni: 27

Average age of top 6: 28.16

Hawks

Speedy: 29

JJ: 26

Marvin: 21

Smith: 21

Zaza: 23

Chill: 24

Average age of top 6: 24

That's over a 4 year age difference in the top 6, which is pretty significant IMO.

[Packfill]

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Yeah but if you take away insignificant pieces that don't get PT or contribute, like Lo Wright, Slava, Ivey's 25, AJ, it's alot more uneven.

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Do the Bulls get to discount Malik Allen and Adreian Griffin then?

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Sure, but how about we look at starting lineups and 6th man.

Bulls

Hinrich: 26

Gordon: 24

Deng: 22

Brown: 37

Wallace: 33

Nocioni: 27

Average age of top 6: 28.16

Hawks

Speedy: 29

JJ: 26

Marvin: 21

Smith: 21

Zaza: 23

Chill: 24

Average age of top 6: 24

That's over a 4 year age difference in the top 6, which is pretty significant IMO.

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Well, this year they will have Tyrus Thomas replacing Brown. Think they will miss the playoffs?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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BK definitely hasn't given Woody much to work with. That said, Woody hasn't exactly put the players he DOES have in a position to win. Key things he does wrong.

#1: Timed substitutions. No matter what or who we are playing, the same players sub in and sub out at almost the exact same time EVERY game. When playing different teams, sometimes you need to switch that up. For example, Marvin would almost always sub out mid 1st quarter, REGARDLESS of how well he was playing. He'd score 10 straight points, but Woody's stopwatch would go off and he'd take him out, and we wouldn't see him until mid 2nd. Also Royal Ivey starting 60+ games in 05-06, but only playing about 10 minutes per game.

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Easily one of the WORST arguments made against Woody as a coach. Almost EVERY coach on EVERY level of basketball, has a "timed" substitution pattern, especially in the 1st half of games. In high school and in college, I knew EXACTLY when I was going to come out of a game, or go into a game. But it's funny that people actually use this against Woody as a coach.

And here's what people don't even see with the Marvin sub. Yes, Marvin almost always goes out of a game at the 6 minute mark in the 1st quarter, for Chill to take his place. But he almost ALWAYS comes right back in at the 2 - 3 minute mark to sub for who? JOSH SMITH or JOE JOHNSON!

Sometimes he comes in and takes Smoove's place at PF with Chill staying at SG. Sometimes, it's JJ that takes a breather, with Chill moving to SG and Marvin playing SF. Sometimes he comes in with another big ( like Shelden ), and Shelden plays PF, Marvin SF, and Chill SG.

Every team on every level of basketball does this during the 1st half of games. It's much more important to have a player like Marvin relatively fresh in the 4th quarter and down the stretch, than it is to keep him in the game longer than usual in the 1st quarter, just because he's made 3 - 5 jumpers. And hell, the offensive dropoff between Marvin and Chill isn't significant anyway. Chill comes in the game most times, and immeadiately scores a few buckets. I know people think Woody is an idiot, but a lot of you don't even know how the game works.

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#2: No offensive gameplan. I know we don't have the greatest offensive players, but we have absolutely NO movement or plays ran on offense at ALL. It's basically, give it to JJ or Lue and let them create.

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Well . . what would you do? Especially if you didn't have a reliable floor general on the floor? It's not a coincidence that the best looking offenses, have very good PGs running the show. A good PG with good leadership and decision making skills, is a vital part of a good offense. Hopefully, Law will change that around for us this year.

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#3: No ability to adjust. He doesn't know how to adjust in certain situations. He'll just stick with the same sub pattern and hope it works.

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This is just flat out not true. And this is why I say that EVERYBODY on Hawksquawk should record EVERY game this season. Every one of them. Just because some of Woody's adjustments don't work ( because they are countered by the other team ), doesn't mean that he isn't making adjustments.

December 6th vs Denver . . No Marvin, Childress, Speedy, or ZaZa ( because he got suspended for that cheap shot he threw in Utah )

We're already shorthanded to begin with.

Starting lineup: Lue, JJ, Smoove, Shelden, Lorenzen . . with Salim set to probably be the 6th man.

Hawks actually play well in the 1st half, taking a 4 point lead into the locker room. The 3rd quarter was different though. The Hawks go ice cold midway in that quarter, and don't make a single FG from the 6 minute mark until the end of the quarter. Meanwhile, the Nuggets are sparked by Diawara, a guy that subbed in for Melo early in the 3rd quarter because Melo had picked up foul #4. A 4 point lead turns into a 14 point decifit at the end of the quarter.

The Hawks start to make shots at the beinning of the 4th quarter, but they now couldn't stop Melo, who had came back into the game. And even though the Hawks had made 5 of their first 6 shots to begin the quarter, they were still down by 14. Hawks tall timeout with a little under 9 minutes to go.

That's when Woody makes the adjustment . . . go zone.

Hawks personnel on the floor: Lue, Salim, JJ, Smoove, Shelden. JJ will play at the top of the zone, with Lue and Salim playing the wings. Smoove and Shelden will handle each side of the baseline.

Denver's personnel grouping of Boykins, Diawara, Evans, Melo, and Klezia, isn't a good one to be going against a zone. So the Nuggets pretty much tried to force-feed the ball into Melo.

Coming out of the timeout, Woody calls a play for JJ that immeadiately has him taking the ball to the hole. JJ makes the lay-up and draws the foul.

Denver tries to get the ball to Melo, but Shelden steals it. Hawks go on fast break, ending with Lue hitting a 20 foot jumper. LOL . . Lue goes back down court, talking, trying to fire the team up. Hawks are now down by 9.

Next possession, Denver tries to get it to Melo again, but Evans has the ball stolen by JJ. Hawks go quickly on offense, ending up with Shelden making a driving basket in the lane in which he also got fouled on. Shelden makes FT and the Hawks are down by 6.

The personnel the Nuggets had on the floor didn't want to force a 3-point shot. So the Zone worked perfectly for the Hawks.

Karl gets some of his boys back into the game ( Dre Miller and Camby ). But even with this move, you still have Miller, Boykins, and Evans on the outside. Decent offensive players, but not 3 point shooters. In the zone, the Hawks were closing out hard on all the shooters, making them go inside.

Next Nugget possession, Denver looks lost as hell, passing the ball on the perimeter. None of those guys want to shoot because they're not wide open. Miller tries to hit Melo in the paint, but Shelden deflects that ball. The ball bounces off the backboard, Smoove grabs the rebound, and starts the break. He makes a very dangerous, but great cross-court pass to Salim, who them passes to a wide open JJ in the corner. JJ knocks down the 3, and the Hawks are right back in the game, down by 3.

The Hawks go on to win the game by two, with Shelden drawing the foul on Camby, and hitting 2 FTs. Then he and Smoove help make the stop at the end of the game.

On this occasion, Woody's adjustment worked. Some nights, it doesn't. That's basketball, and sports in general for ya.

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#4: His insistance on playing Lorenzen Wright. That alone speaks for itself.

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Now THAT, I can't disagree with.

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I still get sick of his patented "stare" it just annoys me. He seems to not have much control over the team, or if he does, it seems the players don't really buy into it. I'm sure he'd still be a good assistant, but he's clearly overmatched when it comes to head coaching. He just doesn't really know what he's doing.

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Most assistants who won a championship have some idea of what they're doing. Woody definitely isn't the best coach in the world, but he's far from the worst. If the rookies live up to the hype, it'll be intersting to see how Woody handles them. If he pulls a Larry Brown, and not play the rookies much, just because they're young, then I'll have a problem with Woody as well. But as of right now, he's just an average coach to me, who really hasn't had the proper personnel in place to be a consistent winner.

[Lascar78]

Having a horrible team doesn't change the fact that he is a HORRIBLE coach. He is horrible at everything except for keeping a young group focused through all the losing.

He has developed no offensive system, makes horrible substitutions, doesn't adjust to what the other team is doing, has developed no go to plays for game winning situations other than Lue or JJ holding it until time expires, he has no concept of 2-for-1 possessions, has not adapted the system to his personnel at all, I could go on and on.

He is horrible, and easily in the bottom 3 of coaches in the NBA. The fact that his teams have been bad excuses the W-L record. It does not excuse his horrible coaching.

Who plays a 3 PG lineup only to have no PG in the game 5 minutes later, and get burned on mismatches in both cases? Only Woody. Who has the most athletic lineup in the league dying to get out in transition but has them play a slow down style? Only Woody.

I could go on but what's the point?

[AtLaS]

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Yeah but if you take away insignificant pieces that don't get PT or contribute, like Lo Wright, Slava, Ivey's 25, AJ, it's alot more uneven.

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Do the Bulls get to discount Malik Allen and Adreian Griffin then?

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Sure, but how about we look at starting lineups and 6th man.

Bulls

Hinrich: 26

Gordon: 24

Deng: 22

Brown: 37

Wallace: 33

Nocioni: 27

Average age of top 6: 28.16

Hawks

Speedy: 29

JJ: 26

Marvin: 21

Smith: 21

Zaza: 23

Chill: 24

Average age of top 6: 24

That's over a 4 year age difference in the top 6, which is pretty significant IMO.

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Well, this year they will have Tyrus Thomas replacing Brown. Think they will miss the playoffs?

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Not really sure what point you are making here, but no. I was talking about last year since that's what everyone else in this thread was referring to.

[AtLaS]

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Easily one of the WORST arguments made against Woody as a coach. Almost EVERY coach on EVERY level of basketball, has a "timed" substitution pattern, especially in the 1st half of games. In high school and in college, I knew EXACTLY when I was going to come out of a game, or go into a game. But it's funny that people actually use this against Woody as a coach.

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You are simply WRONG if you think most coaches would sub someone out who has just scored 10 points in the first 6-7 minutes. Most coaches have it timed to SOME degree, but not the way Woody does it. It's so predictable. You don't sub someone out when they are on fire and playing very well. ESPECIALLY when it's someone who is young and needs confidence.

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It's much more important to have a player like Marvin relatively fresh in the 4th quarter and down the stretch, than it is to keep him in the game longer than usual in the 1st quarter, just because he's made 3 - 5 jumpers.

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Marvin rarely plays in crunchtime, it's usually Childress in his place when we are healthy.

Do you remember that game where Woody "forgot" Smith was on the bench? It may not have been Smith, but he left someone on the bench and didn't put them back in, and he even said this in an interview. I honestly can't believe you are defending Woody as a COACH.

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Well . . what would you do? Especially if you didn't have a reliable floor general on the floor?

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For one, I wouldn't hold one of the most athletic teams in the league to a staggering, tar-footed, no moving, slow half court offense.

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December 6th vs Denver .

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One example, nice. He screws it up WAY more often. If I had recorded games, I could point them out as well, but I don't, so I go from memory. I just remember watching the games and always asking what he was thinking.

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Most assistants who won a championship have some idea of what they're doing. Woody definitely isn't the best coach in the world, but he's far from the worst. If the rookies live up to the hype, it'll be intersting to see how Woody handles them. If he pulls a Larry Brown, and not play the rookies much, just because they're young, then I'll have a problem with Woody as well. But as of right now, he's just an average coach to me, who really hasn't had the proper personnel in place to be a consistent winner.

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Just because he hasn't had great personnel doesn't mean you still can't evaluate his performance. If you honestly can't see all of Woody's inadequacies than you should check into an optometrist. It truly baffles me to see you defending him.