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[Diesel]

The problem is that no coach who has done what Wood has done would have been given three years.

For instance:

Milwaukee fired Porter.

Memphis fired Fratello.

Golden State fired Monty.

MINNY fired Flip.

Orlando fired a few people.

Charlotte lost Bickerstaff.

Now, check this part out...

there are 3 coaches who have been with their teams three years and have had bad situations:

1. Boston Celtics and Doc Rivers... Bad situation in that Pierce has been hurt and I think besides him, they are younger than us.

2. Utah and Jerry Sloan... Utah rebuilt after Malone and Stockton and they did it in 1 draft. They picked up Deron Williams after we passed.

3. New Orleans and Byron Scott.... Just like us at the same time as us, they had nothing... They got Paul, made some good trades, and they developed some midround players like West and they're the talk of the west.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I'm defending him because most of you have absolutely no clue of what you're talking about, especially about the substitutions. This isn't NBA Live 08, where you can play players damn near as long as you want. In the real world, most players can only go at a high level for 6 - 10 minutes at a time.

People act like we had a lot of options to bring off the bench to replace these guyswhen they got hurt. We quickly forget that guys like Cedric Bozeman and Matt Freije were playing significant minutes back in Nov and Dec. Even in Lorenzen's case, even though he sucked, he had to play on most nights. Hell . . I think Ivey started at PG most of January, because neither Lue nor Speedy was healthy.

And citing that Marvin being hot in the 1st quarter, then being taken out, is a point not worthy to stand on. I'm not a Marvin basher, but come on now. The guy shot 42% last year. He might . . might have had 5 games in which he scored 10 points in the 1st quarter, let alone any quarter. And even in those games in which he did score early, it's not like he had a monster game. Did Marvin even break the 25 point barrier this year?

And how were we supposed to reduce JJ's minutes last year? The main guy that would take his place as a scorer ( Lue ), was hurt for 1/2 of the year. So what do we do? Give Salim heavy minutes every game, even if he's ice cold and playing no defense? And everytime JJ would leave the game, this team would flat out COLLAPSE. His injury might be a blessing in disguise for this season, because those guys finally learned to play without him on the floor.

This year is different, beacause we actually go a legit 10 deep. We can possibly survive two injuries this year ( outside of JJ ), because of that depth. This year Woody has no excuse, unless 4 guys get hurt at the same time. I mean damn, we've had NBDL players get decent minutes on this team.

All I do, is call Woody an average coach. Not a great one. Not even a good one. He's average. I don't think a guy like Lawrence Frank, or even an Eddie Jordan, are better coaches. Give either those teams both Lue and Speedy, and give us Kidd or Arenas, and I bet that we'll have the better record. There are a LOT of coaches around this league, who wouldn't have done a better job than Woody, under the same circumstances. The elite coaches . . yes. A guy like Mike Dunleavy, Sr? Hell no!!

And always remember. It was WOODY who planned to play Josh Smith at the 4. He didn't have to put him there. He could've left him out on the wing, and played Marvin at the 4, seeing that Marvin is a little heavier than Smoove. So whether you guys like it or not, WOODY gets a lot of the credit, for Smoove's improved playin the 2nd half of the season.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Diesel, I think we all know that the ownership situation probably played a big role for Woody lasting this long. With the situation the way it is, it would've been very hard to find a legit coach to replace Woody. A guy like Adleman wouldn't have come here. This is NOT an attractive job, no matter what the fans want to think. The same reason why big time free agents usually don't want to come here, is the same reason why we can't get a big time coach.

But seriously, look through the Eastern Conference and the coaches in it. Who would've stepped in here last year, and got us to the playoffs? I can name maybe 3 of them. And one of them definitely ISN'T Flip Saunders.

[ATLBob]

fantastic post

[Johnnybravo4]

Woody is the worst coach in the history of the NBA. I can't think of anyone who is even close. He makes Lon Kruger look like Pat Riley. I would rather have Bob Reinhart coaching this squad.

[AtLaS]

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I'm defending him because most of you have absolutely no clue of what you're talking about, especially about the substitutions. This isn't NBA Live 08, where you can play players damn near as long as you want. In the real world, most players can only go at a high level for 6 - 10 minutes at a time.

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6-10 minutes? LOL that's not true at ALL. I can go longer than that at FULL speed, and I'm not near the athlete that these professionals are. If you're talking about Shaq, than I agree with you. And trust me I'm not going by NBA live, I haven't even owned a basketball game in like 4 years. I know exactly what I'm talking about because I see it with my eyes, and I've played basketball my entire life.

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People act like we had a lot of options to bring off the bench to replace these guyswhen they got hurt. We quickly forget that guys like Cedric Bozeman and Matt Freije were playing significant minutes back in Nov and Dec.

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So since we didn't have good guys to bring off the bench, we take out the players who are doing well in the game? OK.

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Even in Lorenzen's case, even though he sucked, he had to play on most nights.

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Um, no he didn't. We had Solomon and Shelden riding pine most nights, both whom could and should have EASILY taken Lo's minutes, which was about 15+ a game.

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And citing that Marvin being hot in the 1st quarter, then being taken out, is a point not worthy to stand on. I'm not a Marvin basher, but come on now. The guy shot 42% last year. He might . . might have had 5 games in which he scored 10 points in the 1st quarter, let alone any quarter.

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Listen, I'm one of the biggest Marvin haters/bashers on this board, but I'm not going to take him out if he's just hit a few shots in a row and gotten into a rhythm. I'm not primarily using Marvin as an example though, this happens with other players as well. And I don't necessarily mean he dropped 10 points in 6 minutes, I mean he would sometimes hit a few shots in a row, only to be taken out on the next dead ball because Woody's stopwatch went off. It's just a horrible decision and I saw it happen on NUMEROUS occasions.

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And even in those games in which he did score early, it's not like he had a monster game. Did Marvin even break the 25 point barrier this year?

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You have just proved my point exactly, IMO taking him out when he's hot gets him out of a rhythm. With vet players, this isn't the case, but with young players, it's tough to keep that same swagger/confidence and come back in the game feeling the same way.

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Salim heavy minutes every game, even if he's ice cold and playing no defense? And everytime JJ would leave the game, this team would flat out COLLAPSE.

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Where did I say something about JJ's minutes? I would LOVE to get them down to around 35-37 but last year it definitely wasn't possible with all the injuries. And I'm sick of the "Salim no defense" argument. Yes, he sucked in 05-06, but last year he gave it extreme effort defensively when he was on the floor. His defense did not "suck" when he played.

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All I do, is call Woody an average coach. Not a great one. Not even a good one. He's average. I don't think a guy like Lawrence Frank, or even an Eddie Jordan, are better coaches. Give either those teams both Lue and Speedy, and give us Kidd or Arenas, and I bet that we'll have the better record. There are a LOT of coaches around this league, who wouldn't have done a better job than Woody, under the same circumstances. The elite coaches . . yes. A guy like Mike Dunleavy, Sr? Hell no!!

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Well, I vehemently disagree with you, but the rest is all speculation so I won't comment on that.

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And always remember. It was WOODY who planned to play Josh Smith at the 4. He didn't have to put him there. He could've left him out on the wing, and played Marvin at the 4, seeing that Marvin is a little heavier than Smoove. So whether you guys like it or not, WOODY gets a lot of the credit, for Smoove's improved playin the 2nd half of the season.

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I've been saying Smith should be a PF since the middle of his rookie season. It wasn't that hard a decision to make considering his skillset compared to Marvin's.

[Peoriabird]

This is actually a good discussion. Hard to decide whether Woody is the worse coach in the league because I don't follow the other coaches but I will say this...Player/announcers did make comments about Woody's style of coaching! Specifically regarding his approach to transitioning from defense to offense with this type of team. Many would agree that Woody lost a lot of leads because he refuse to run teams out of the gym sort of speak. He would slow things down and force his non-shooting line up to make jump shots or worse, force a young line up to execute a half court offense! Maybe it will help in the long run but it lost him more games than it should have over the last 2 years.

[AHF]

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Well . . what would you do? Especially if you didn't have a reliable floor general on the floor? It's not a coincidence that the best looking offenses, have very good PGs running the show. A good PG with good leadership and decision making skills, is a vital part of a good offense. Hopefully, Law will change that around for us this year.

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There is no excuse in my mind for not having a better offensive game plan. College teams routinely have a much better defined offensive system than Woodson's Hawks teams. The "walk-it-up-the-court," halfcourt system the Hawks usually employ is a terrible fit for this team. The personnel were not well suited for a halfcourt offense the last few years, IMO. Personally, I think he just wanted a slower pace so that it would look closer when the team lost rather than gamble on losing by larger deficits some games but winning more on the whole. A lot of our wins came when teams that specialize in fast-paced offense forced us to move to an uptempo game. Surprise, surprise that guys like Smoove, Chillz, Marvin, JJ, etc. flourish in that higher tempo offense.

[Diesel]

I don't think we need a big time coach... It would be lovely, but we need a good coach more than anything else. We're still young enough to be influenced by good coaching. To that end, who would be a good coach?

I would say maybe a guy like Terry Porter..

Maybe a guy like Rick Carlisle.

Maybe a guy like PJ Carlisimo.

Maybe a guy like Del Harris.

I just think we have to consider that there are some guys with enough experience to come in here and do some good work.

Not to mention Paul Westhead.'

[Swatguy]

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Well . . what would you do? Especially if you didn't have a reliable floor general on the floor? It's not a coincidence that the best looking offenses, have very good PGs running the show. A good PG with good leadership and decision making skills, is a vital part of a good offense. Hopefully, Law will change that around for us this year.

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There is no excuse in my mind for not having a better offensive game plan. College teams routinely have a much better defined offensive system than Woodson's Hawks teams. The "walk-it-up-the-court," halfcourt system the Hawks usually employ is a terrible fit for this team. The personnel were not well suited for a halfcourt offense the last few years, IMO. Personally, I think he just wanted a slower pace so that it would look closer when the team lost rather than gamble on losing by larger deficits some games but winning more on the whole. A lot of our wins came when teams that specialize in fast-paced offense forced us to move to an uptempo game. Surprise, surprise that guys like Smoove, Chillz, Marvin, JJ, etc. flourish in that higher tempo offense.

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The car will not start without "Spark plugs". You seem to disregard the fact we Had No "fast-paced" point. So we Had Not the personnel to run all willie-nilly.

And you blame Woodson for that? Seems to me, he knows the personnel, you guys just have wants.

[coachx]

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Well . . what would you do? Especially if you didn't have a reliable floor general on the floor? It's not a coincidence that the best looking offenses, have very good PGs running the show. A good PG with good leadership and decision making skills, is a vital part of a good offense. Hopefully, Law will change that around for us this year.

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There is no excuse in my mind for not having a better offensive game plan. College teams routinely have a much better defined offensive system than Woodson's Hawks teams. The "walk-it-up-the-court," halfcourt system the Hawks usually employ is a terrible fit for this team. The personnel were not well suited for a halfcourt offense the last few years, IMO. Personally, I think he just wanted a slower pace so that it would look closer when the team lost rather than gamble on losing by larger deficits some games but winning more on the whole. A lot of our wins came when teams that specialize in fast-paced offense forced us to move to an uptempo game. Surprise, surprise that guys like Smoove, Chillz, Marvin, JJ, etc. flourish in that higher tempo offense.

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The car will not start without "Spark plugs". You seem to disregard the fact we Had No "fast-paced" point. So we Had Not the personnel to run all willie-nilly.

And you blame Woodson for that? Seems to me, he knows the personnel, you guys just have wants.

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I am so glad to see some rational minds out there. Your self and Northcyde and even Diesel can see the light called reality.

[Swatguy]

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I am so glad to see some rational minds out there. Your self and Northcyde and even Diesel can see the light called reality.

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[coachx]

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And always remember. It was WOODY who planned to play Josh Smith at the 4. He didn't have to put him there. He could've left him out on the wing, and played Marvin at the 4, seeing that Marvin is a little heavier than Smoove. So whether you guys like it or not, WOODY gets a lot of the credit, for Smoove's improved playin the 2nd half of the season.

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You make very rational points.

The last part about Smith is a truth that may have turned Smoove's whole career around while at the same time giving Marvin ample floortime to develop for the long term. When Smoove and Woody have these disagreements....Smoove should remember this. Woody normally knows what is best for him even if his 21 year old perspective cannot see the big picture at the time.

Can't wait to see how our current players growth coupled with the additions Law and Horford due for the team's development this year.

[pimp]

I really dont think there was much of a choice to where Josh was going to play.Josh smith WAS weighed more than

Marvin last year, and he takes contact much better than Marvin.Even the Year before Josh would backup Harrington,

and even play a few minutes at center at times.

As for Josh's inprovement... I have seen many interviews where Josh gives credit to Larry Drew for his inprovement not Woody.

[Dexmethylphenidate]

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Having a horrible team doesn't change the fact that he is a HORRIBLE coach. He is horrible at everything except for keeping a young group focused through all the losing.

He has developed no offensive system, makes horrible substitutions, doesn't adjust to what the other team is doing, has developed no go to plays for game winning situations other than Lue or JJ holding it until time expires, he has no concept of 2-for-1 possessions, has not adapted the system to his personnel at all, I could go on and on.

He is horrible, and easily in the bottom 3 of coaches in the NBA. The fact that his teams have been bad excuses the W-L record. It does not excuse his horrible coaching.

Who plays a 3 PG lineup only to have no PG in the game 5 minutes later, and get burned on mismatches in both cases? Only Woody. Who has the most athletic lineup in the league dying to get out in transition but has them play a slow down style? Only Woody.

I could go on but what's the point?

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I agree. I mean, who else start a player for a bunch of games but only have about 10mins/game? Yeah what does this do to the confidence of your players Woody?

[coachx]

[

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I agree. I mean, who else start a player for a bunch of games but only have about 10mins/game? Yeah what does this do to the confidence of your players Woody?

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Again, how easy it is to say a want without seeing reality.

The only time Ivey EVER started was when our only other healthy PG was Lue. Lue has repeatedly said he is more comfortable and more effective coming off the bench. He is spark plug and a scorer, not a floor general with a defensive mindset which is the prefereable role for a teams starting PG.

Woody saw the pieces he had to work with and put those pieces where they fit the best.

It is widely known that average at best oppposing PGs have career days vs our peremiter defense. So he started our best defender at the PG poisition to try and keep the opposing PG from starting the games hot and in attack mode.

Makes sense enough to me.

Then we blame Woody for not running more. Ivey, Lue, AJ, and a broken down Speedy are not exactly tempo pushers. It is not like he was slowing down a Kidd, Nash, Parker, Ford, or some lightning rod of a PG who is capable of running an uptempo system that could out run and out think the opposing team.

Like the WSP song...."Make Sense To Me "

[AHF]

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Well . . what would you do? Especially if you didn't have a reliable floor general on the floor? It's not a coincidence that the best looking offenses, have very good PGs running the show. A good PG with good leadership and decision making skills, is a vital part of a good offense. Hopefully, Law will change that around for us this year.

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There is no excuse in my mind for not having a better offensive game plan. College teams routinely have a much better defined offensive system than Woodson's Hawks teams. The "walk-it-up-the-court," halfcourt system the Hawks usually employ is a terrible fit for this team. The personnel were not well suited for a halfcourt offense the last few years, IMO. Personally, I think he just wanted a slower pace so that it would look closer when the team lost rather than gamble on losing by larger deficits some games but winning more on the whole. A lot of our wins came when teams that specialize in fast-paced offense forced us to move to an uptempo game. Surprise, surprise that guys like Smoove, Chillz, Marvin, JJ, etc. flourish in that higher tempo offense.

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The car will not start without "Spark plugs". You seem to disregard the fact we Had No "fast-paced" point. So we Had Not the personnel to run all willie-nilly.

And you blame Woodson for that? Seems to me, he knows the personnel, you guys just have wants.

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Umm..kay.

(1) There was NO effective offensive system out there. If you call repeating the same two man game an offense then I guess Woodson really gave us what we needed. Unlike college teams that can effectively run motion offenses, Princeton offenses, uptempo offenses, etc. We had no system at all. I would love to hear you identify the offensive system that Woodson has put into place during his coaching tenure. I've never heard it described.

(2) Re the uptempo note. The lack of a PG? The PG is very helpful but you don't need a superspeed PG to play transition basketball. You don't need a "fast-paced" PG. The best transition pg ever wasn't a speedster (Magic). Many teams have run very successful uptempo systems without good PGs. What I am telling you is not that we have the ideal personnel for uptempo. However, I am telling you that uptempo was better suited to last year's personnel than half-court basketball.

And the proof is in the pudding that our PGs didn't really killed us in our uptempo wins against uptempo teams who forced us to play their pace.

Here were the top four teams in terms of scoring and our results against them. We did very well against uptempo teams because it took advantage of our athleticism (which is MUCH less meaningful in the halfcourt). Note that even the games we lost were competitive:

Total: 5-4

Phoenix 1-0

120-111

Golden State 2-0

115-94

106-105

Denver 1-1

98-96

87-100

Washington 1-3

95-96

92-93

100-97

85-98

[exodus]

Woody hasn't shown me anything to make me believe that he is a quality coach but to be fair i don't think any coach could have succeeded with the roster and injuries he has had to deal with.

And as far as the fast break goes the Hawks frequently looked like the NBA's version of the Bad News Bears when they did try to run. Running takes more than just speed obviously. Most importantly it takes guys who can make good decisions with the ball on the fly. Not our strong suit.

They had a few games where they ran well but overall they were pretty ineffective when they ran the break, turning it over way too much.

I am a big Smith fan but I couldn't even count how many times i felt like smacking him on the break when he would pass and turn it over when he easily could have dunked.

[AHF]

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I am a big Smith fan but I couldn't even count how many times i felt like smacking him on the break when he would pass and turn it over when he easily could have dunked.

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Running a break isn't that complicated if you get the right instruction. You think Smith isn't dunking those balls if (bad NBA coach) Rick Pitino is coaching him? The fast break should be well-drilled with players as to the pretty basic conditions in which they keep the ball or give the ball up. Drill that in practice and it should carry over to the game without too much difficulty because it really isn't nearly as complicated as something like defensive positioning.

The bottomline regardless of one's view on an uptempo offense it that these guys were never given any offense to run as far as I can tell. Surely not one that was organized or effective.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Atlas, it's obvious that we're going to be on two very different sides of this. So I'll ask you 4 questions.

- How many WINS should Woody have had last year, with all of the injuries?

- How many WINS should Woody have had last year, if everyone would've been realtively?

Now . . replace Woody with, say . . I don't know . . Mike D'Antoni.

- How many WINS does D'Antoni get as Hawks coach, with all the injuries?

- How many WINS does D'Antoni get as Hawks coach, if everybody was healthy last year?

4 simple questions Atlas. Answer them if you dare.