I've withheld posting for awhile...

[thesheedera]

I still can't believe that this is still such a huge debate. No one knows what Marvin's offseason regimen was really like. You can interpret it as something rigourous or something lazy. Yet everyone STILL assumes they have the answer and just goes on arguing their side.

Someone please prove to me that Marvin didn't put in the work this offseason before we go any further.

[Diesel]

yeah, my example...

If you have a person making 7 figures... you expect him to be better at his job than some goof making 10 bucks an hour...

You and your none expectation is ridiculous.

Yeah, we made the wrong pick... We're past that. Now, we're talking about: well, what do we expect from Marvin?

You want to suggest that because we realize that we made the wrong pick, Marvin gets a pass.

That's BS ex.

There's still a standard of quality to be held for Marvin.

If you don't have one, then that's pathetic.

[Diesel]

If Marvin's workout regime was anything like what he did last year, then it's logical to suggest that we can expect the same thing that we got going from his freshmen year to his sophomore year right??

By the numbers and how he looked on the court, there was no change in his play going from his freshman year to last year.

[exodus]

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yeah, my example...

If you have a person making 7 figures... you expect him to be better at his job than some goof making 10 bucks an hour...

You and your none expectation is ridiculous.

Yeah, we made the wrong pick... We're past that. Now, we're talking about: well, what do we expect from Marvin?

You want to suggest that because we realize that we made the wrong pick, Marvin gets a pass.

That's BS ex.

There's still a standard of quality to be held for Marvin.

If you don't have one, then that's pathetic.

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Again you show your cluelessness with your strawman argument.

You clowned yourself and don't even realize it. Sad but typical.

You say that Marvin doesn't have as much talent as Paul and Deron and yet you still hold him to the standard of being the number 2 pick.

Just because my standard is lower than yours doesn't mean i have no standard for Marvin. It means my standard is based in reality rather than fantasy.

If someone gives Ivey a max deal it doesn't mean he will suddenly perform like a max player. He can't because he simply doesn't have the talent.

[Diesel]

And yours are still missing Ex.

There was no strawman.

I'm talking about 2007, you're back in 2005.

I say that Marvin should be held to a standard if he's to be a starter. That means that he's to be worthy of his starting position by being the best ON THIS TEAM at that position.

You are the one who is in panick mode trying to divert the conversation away from plain and simple best man plays...

I read an ex post and it's very simple.

1. Talk about his being picked second.

if that doesn't work..

2. Bring up Shelden and Chillz.

if that doesn't work...

3. Goto photobucket and pull out a picture and start talking about I pwned you, I pwned you...

Ex, you are a child. And the grown folks are talking. It's time for you to leave the table because you have nothing to add to this conversation except childish antics....

There's no reason why Marvin should be starting on this Hawks team... Plain and Simple. Marvin should be coming off the bench and that's the end of story. Until you're ready to step into that conversation... I suggest that you go back to the kiddie table and pull up some more Pictures!!

[exodus]

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And yours are still missing Ex.

There was no strawman.

I'm talking about 2007, you're back in 2005.

I say that Marvin should be held to a standard if he's to be a starter. That means that he's to be worthy of his starting position by being the best ON THIS TEAM at that position.

You are the one who is in panick mode trying to divert the conversation away from plain and simple best man plays...

I read an ex post and it's very simple.

1. Talk about his being picked second.

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Let's look at your quote FROM THIS THREAD which prompted my initial response.

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The MW fans will say:

Marvin's not responsible for where he was drafted and he shouldn't be held responsible for being the 2nd pick overall?

To me, that is sickening.

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Look familiar? Did you mention anything about Chillz? Did you mention anything about starting? No you mentioned holding Marvin responsible for being the second pick.

You can shut up now unless you would like me to clown you further.

[Duff_Man]

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I've withheld posting for awhile...

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And we are all thankful for that.

[Diesel]

Well, first off, neither CHillz or Shelden are starters.

Secondly... It's sickening that the MW fans don't have ANY expectation of Marvin...

I mean, you've lowered your expectations of Marvin So low that you're comparing him to Ivey and Salim?? Sound familiar?

Excuse, me... but Marvin is a starter and he's not the best guy at the position he plays. Moreover, we've been content to place better players at positions where they are not so good just so that Mr. Second pick can start at Sf.

Here's your problem Ex.

What you fail to see is that Him being picked 2nd is the reason why he is starting now. Somehow, BK and Woody has to find a way to justify this bust.

You know and I know that Marvin is never going to be worthy of the 2nd pick. However, with that... IF He is to be the starter, SOME STANDARD... Real standard and not that watered down mess that you proclaim as being realistic has to be put in place.

Time for grown up talk here:

I say the standard is that he has to be better at Sf than Chillz and Smoove in order to keep his starting position.

Is that too fantasy for you??

Would you rather the standard be that he show up on time for the game? Or would you rather it be that he warms up at least 15 of the 20 minutes that the rest of the team warms up.

The whole board is interested in knowing what's your Expectation of Marvin EX??

You may start your diversion now.

[exodus]

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The whole board is interested in knowing what's your Expectation of Marvin EX??

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I have posted this repeatedly but i guess you missed it repeatedly. My expectation for Marvin is for him to be as good as Deng is now, an 18-20 ppg player. I don't think he has the talent to be more than that.

As far as this year i would expect 15-16 ppg with roughly 46% shooting. Is that too general for you?

I certainly am not going to hold him to the standard of being better than Paul and Deron as you still do EVEN THOUGH you admitted that he doesn't have the talent of either. Typical Diesel contradiction.

[DJlaysitup]

Marvin tried to do the "aggressive go-to-the-hoop" thing in the Summerleague last year. It pretty much worked and he got lotsa foul calls and scored a bunch of points (MVP of SL I believe). He worked on his "core strength" and all looked good.

Then he tried the same thing with the big boys and got his butt slammed (or shot blocked) and didn't get the calls. So I think (at least subconsciouly) he decided to revert back to jump shooting. I'm reasonably OK with that if he shoots a good percentage and works hard on defense and rebounding.

The problem is: the mix we will have on the court.

Speedy - decent slasher but not a big offensive threat

JJ - great player but doesn't take the ball to the rim very often.

Marvin - jump shooter, not a big threat to drive.

JS - bigtime talent but lacks the handles to drive consistently.

Zaza - tries, but tends to just run into defender and shoot from the hip.

Because we basically have nobody who likes to take the ball to the rim we are at a big dissadvantage offensively and (not surprisingly) we were last in the league on offense last year.

[Diesel]

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As far as this year i would expect 15-16 ppg with roughly 46% shooting. Is that too general for you?

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So in other words you expect Marvin to improve his ppg by 3 pts and his shooting % by 3 percent. I also suppose that you expect his mpg to increase too?

These are some very low expectations... It really does figure...

How can he have a breakout 3rd year if he only increases his ppg by 3 and his FG% by 3.

This past year, Josh Smith increased his ppg by 5.1 ppg and his FG% by 1.5 points. Shouldn't we expect atleast the same from MW the Starting Sf?

[AHF]

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This past year, Josh Smith increased his ppg by 5.1 ppg and his FG% by 1.5 points. Shouldn't we expect atleast the same from MW the Starting Sf?

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I don't because I plan on Josh Smith scoring more this year; Horford getting some serious minutes; continued production from Chillz; etc. The total scoring would really need to improve for their to be room for Marvin to jump up to nearly 18 ppg. I would be happy with improved efficiency in similar minutes to last year and a more aggressive attitude on both ends of the court. 15-16 ppg with improved rebounding, shooting %, etc. would be fine as long as it serves the team well.

[gsuteke]

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I still can't believe that this is still such a huge debate. No one knows what Marvin's offseason regimen was really like. You can interpret it as something rigourous or something lazy. Yet everyone STILL assumes they have the answer and just goes on arguing their side.

Someone please prove to me that Marvin didn't put in the work this offseason before we go any further.

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debate huh? some would probably go as far to describe it as a rare, yet pungent mixture of garbage and post regurgitation.

[exodus]

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As far as this year i would expect 15-16 ppg with roughly 46% shooting. Is that too general for you?

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So in other words you expect Marvin to improve his ppg by 3 pts and his shooting % by 3 percent. I also suppose that you expect his mpg to increase too?

These are some very low expectations... It really does figure...

How can he have a breakout 3rd year if he only increases his ppg by 3 and his FG% by 3.

This past year, Josh Smith increased his ppg by 5.1 ppg and his FG% by 1.5 points. Shouldn't we expect atleast the same from MW the Starting Sf?

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Funny but i haven't seen YOUR expectations for this season, other than Marvin being a bust if he isn't better than Paul or Deron.

[TexasPete]

AHF, your making far too much sense. In Diesel's world Marvin has to have a huge scoring increase even though the team has significantly more options.

I want to see evidence that Marvin is a much better all around basketball player. And that works for most rational people.

[Diesel]

Nope..

In my opinion, Marvin shouldn't be starting unless he has earned the position. Period...

Was it not you who made the case (last year) that Marvin's drafted position dictates that he should start over players who are better than him "right now"...

TP, have you had a change of heart.. or like your buddies Exodus and Thesheedera are you still willing to give Marvin the start simply because of where we drafted him?

[gsuteke]

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Nope..

In my opinion, Marvin shouldn't be starting unless he has earned the position. Period...

Was it not you who made the case (last year) that Marvin's drafted position dictates that he should start over players who are better than him "right now"...

TP, have you had a change of heart.. or like your buddies Exodus and Thesheedera are you still willing to give Marvin the start simply because of where we drafted him?

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I don't think Marvin has necessarily earned a starting spot either. here's the problem though, who has?

It's been debated on here both ways but if you take Josh Smith and put him on 3s on a nightly basis you in essence are taking a "special" player on block and turning him into an above average to good player on the perimeter.

Josh Smith needs to play the 4. Right now he's better than Marvin Williams so he's earned that spot. Everyone else must fall in line.

That's where Billy Knight, as unlucky as he has been outside of that Marvin draft, comes into play. WTF are you going to do with Al Horford and Shelden Williams?

This whole Marvin sucks/give Marvin a chance to prove himself debate will be moot if one of those two, Shelden or Horford, can't play the 5.

[Traceman]

if everyone stays relatively healthy and Marvin averages 16/7 while shooting 46%.

Smoove gave us 16/9/3 last year. If he can increase that to 19/10/3 (realistic numbers for him in my opinion), JJ maintains his 25/4/4 and Marvin can give us 16/7/3, we will finally have 3 reliable scorers on a nightly basis. Those numbers would make that trio a top five scoring trio in the league. With our solid depth, I think those numbers from those 3 guys will make us a playoff team.

[Diesel]

I would say that either Smoove or Chillz has earned the right.

I think we have made up these non-needs for Smoove and Chillz.

Smoove needs to play 4. That's crap. Smoove doesn't defend the four that well and he doesn't have a post offense.

Chillz needs to be 6th man? That's crap too. Now that we have a PG, Chillz once again is our best option at Sf. He shoots a higher percentage, he gets more rebounds, he handles the ball better. JJ is an ironman. It's highly unlikely that JJ will miss that many games and more likely that he will play more than 40 mpg.

[Johann]

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This whole... debate will be moot if one of those two, Shelden or Horford, can't play the 5.

That's the nail on the head right there, that of course is the real issue. I guess we can't debate it because we have no way of knowing, though I think we all suspect that they can't.

However, there is a glimmer of hope. Many, many have speculated as to when the basketball gods would consider that the Hawks' godawful karma (apparently earned from keeping babcock in place for years beyond when it was perfectly obvious he had no clue) would finally run out. The Dwight Howard draft? Karma still clearly in place. 2005 draft, 2006 draft? Speedy, Lo signing? You tell me.

But this past year's draft... now THERE is a sea change (insert 25 exclamation points). Hawks could have very easily had no picks at all. The Pacers were nosediving and within 1 game of 10th worst in the league with about 8 games left. And the PP balls had to fall just right for us to keep our own pick - just right! Look at what happened.

Could be the tide has turned! It just COULD BE one of them can play meaningful minutes at center.