I've withheld posting for awhile...

[atlien]

Wow, i'm not sure why my logic is being missed here.

Lebron and Carmello were top-3 SF picks who were ready to come in and contribute right away.

The cold, hard truth is that Marvin was not. MARVIN IS NOT LEBRON AND CARMELLO. SORRY GUYS. HE WAS NOT READY TO COME IN AND DO WHAT THEY DID, even though some people here have expected that out of him. Well, he isn't them (he needed more time to develop) and comparing him to them will only set you up for disappointment (at least for now).

Quite simply, Marvin was nowhere near the level that they were at as far as contributing right away goes (I agree that he won't ever get to their level, but alas, life sucks right?)

I'm confused about how that point is confusing.

I guess it all comes down to the fact that we botched the pick, but noone is questioning that (Im not).

My whole basis for "arguing" (which im not even trying to do really), is that I believe Marvin's development is nowhere near done. He was raw when he came into the league (way more raw than the other top 3 sf's you allude to).

Has he been working on his game this summer? I'm sure he has. Maybe he should be working harder. Maybe he's working hard enough. We certainly don't know from a single newspaper article (no matter how bad we want to take such an article as crystal clear indication).

[mrhonline]

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Wow, i'm not sure why my logic is being missed here.

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[exodus]

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Wow, i'm not sure why my logic is being missed here.

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LOL another one for my repetoire. Good find.

[gsuteke]

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Wow, i'm not sure why my logic is being missed here.

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LOL another one for my repetoire. Good find.

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another one for the photobucket account

[jerrywest]

I wish.

[AHF]

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Anyhow, I agree MW will "improve" as much as more minutes will demonstrate while his efficiency will not improve significantly if not decrease as it did last year, BK will call such "improvement" a sign of success, and plow full steam ahead towards gutting all the "PO-tential" trade value that MW has in order to save his job.

W

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Welcome back Walter. I am not so sure that Marvin will get any more minutes this year with Horford in the frontcourt mix. However, I am optimistic we will see an increase in efficiency this season since Marvin's efficiency increased over the course of last season as he got healthy. No question his efficiency needs to improve.

[txsting]

Game, set, match. That's a nice post, atlien. Serious pwnage there, or at least a measured and reasonable position, which is much more rare.

[Diesel]

You are lacking common sense.

IF a fortune 500 company hires you and pays you a 7 figure salary...

Are you saying that you have no responsibility to live up to all that they have done?

It's stupid to say otherwise Ex.

You have a guy making 7 figures and he's the biggest slacker in the world...

Ex says... >"It's not his fault that you paid him that much"...

That's sickening ex.

Since you like picture so much.. I got one for you...

Marvin at the fortune 500 company...

IT'S NOT HIS FAULT

[exodus]

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You are lacking common sense.

IF a fortune 500 company hires you and pays you a 7 figure salary...

Are you saying that you have no responsibility to live up to all that they have done?

It's stupid to say otherwise Ex.

You have a guy making 7 figures and he's the biggest slacker in the world...

Ex says... >"It's not his fault that you paid him that much"...

That's sickening ex.

Since you like picture so much.. I got one for you...

Marvin at the fortune 500 company...

IT'S NOT HIS FAULT

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The employee's job is to perform to the best of his ability. The expectations somebody has are irrelevant.

Again your lack of sense shows through. All a player can do is play to the best of his ability. If a GM overestimates his ability that is the GM's fault.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that MW does fulfill what i believe is his potential. Let's say he becomes a 1 or 2 time All-Star (which i personally think is a reach). If he does manage to do it will he have lived up to being the number 2 pick? No, because Deron and Paul would have still been better picks.

All the player can control is their performance. They can't control where they are picked. You never understood that and still don't.

If someone thinks Royal Ivey is the next Magic Johnson, is it Ivey's fault if he doesn't live up to that expectation?

[mrhonline]

As far as next season goes, I'm not even concerned with Marvin's ability or inability to reach his potential. I'm more concerned with his ability to help the Hawks make the playoffs.

[Guest Walter]

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If BK had made the right pick we wouldn't care how Marvin was performing.

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True, we'd be worrying about whether Chris Paul or Deron were working out too much and too hard not whether MW was working too soft and too little. Think about Paul playing with the USA team. That's alot of offseason basketball work in and of itself. Think about Deron losing 15 lbs before his NBA workouts. More than MW seems to put in all his offseasons. And frankly, he chose to come out even earlier than they did with obviously more remedial work to be done. He should be working harder than they are and do to catch up. The NBA doesn't do your make up work for you and the season makes it very hard to get that work done. Gotta put in the time and effort in the offseason or else you return with essentially the same game you left with (if that).

I've always stressed that BK selecting MW was BK's mistake. Never any doubt about it. Since then, it doesn't appear that MW cares enough to attempt to undo it himself. At some point it's about whether MW even gives a d@mn enough about basketball to make his basketball development during the most important part of any player's career his primary if not solitary focus outside of family. At his age the # of obligations can and should be minimal to ensure that he remediates his basketball education. You don't leave school early and start a career so that you can immediately put aside your career and finish school. Not unless you want to do both poorly.

Ever since his drafting MW hasn't done anything to disspell the concerns about him with his drafting. That's the crux. While I would want BK gone, we can't undo his drafting MW. However, even in the best light, the light MW casts about himself, he cares about basketball and his basketball development very little. He's just started to shave, remember. Then he shouldn't be trying to juggle college and a fledgling #2 pick NBA basketball career if he's THAT immature!!! He uses his immaturity as an excuse, runs to the safety of college life to insulate him, and by so doing complicates his life, compounds his errors, and severely stunts his basketball development.

W

[Guest Walter]

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Quite simply, Marvin was nowhere near the level that they were at as far as contributing right away goes

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Has he been working on his game this summer? I'm sure he has. Maybe he should be working harder. Maybe he's working hard enough. We certainly don't know from a single newspaper article (no matter how bad we want to take such an article as crystal clear indication).

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I think it's very clear. MW has came to the biggest interview of a man's life OUT OF SHAPE, does pilates (big whoop) the next year, and characterizes this off-season in the ho-hum "ran into the assistant coach and started working on basketball stuff" manner. He is CONSISTENTLY lacking a sense of urgency much less giving a d@mn about the career he chose (one 10 out of 10 of us would kill to have).

I even "work on my game" in the summer, but if I were paid $4 mil, had a #2 pick spent on me, and entered early knowing my game and body would require extra work, I wouldn't have to wait for my assistant coach to tell me to get off my duff. It should be insulting to every single Hawk fan. Shame on those who defend it. This is MW according to him in the best light possible and it still insults us all and the organization. We spent the highest draft pick we've EVER had on him and this is the lazy effort we get in return? Can you imagine ever giving this guy a 6 year/$50-60 mil contract? ANY 6 year contract?!? He might just lay down and dog on you. He'll be a "nice guy" when he does it, but he'd still dog you.

W

[Guest Walter]

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The employee's job is to perform to the best of his ability. The expectations somebody has are irrelevant.

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...to date to reflect "performing to the best of his ability"?

1) He comes to the Hawks and the most important interview of anyone's life OUT OF SHAPE

2) Pilates and other "core strengthening" (I mean come on, give me a break.)

3) He's putting school over his career in the offseason and in his own words it took an assistant coach running into him to get him "focused on basketball".

I haven't seen MW try much less perform his best...EVER. I'm not sure we ever will, even in a contract year. He simply has no desire for it. None. I can't imagine ever giving him a 6 year contract. He'd simply "nice-guy" dog-it the rest of his career. BK would but only to not look so stupid in the short-term for drafting him.

W

[Zone034life]

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All the player can control is their performance. They can't control where they are picked. You never understood that and still don't.

If someone thinks Royal Ivey is the next Magic Johnson, is it Ivey's fault if he doesn't live up to that expectation?

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You are correct by saying all a player can control is his performance. But do you feel Marvins performance has been up to par? You are also correct to say a player can't control where they are drafted. But do you realize after he has been drafted with a top pick that his organization and fans should hold him to high standards?

The problem with your Royal Ivey comparison is that he was drafted in the second round. If he were a top 2 pick overall and he was a bust then he should be critisized just as Marvin is. I don't care about Paul and D. Williams anymore because that discussion is irrelevent. But as a Hawks fan with Marvin as apart of this team he has not produced up to this point or shown flashes of greatness. He also comes across to alot of fans as passive on the court. Not being aggressive with the ball. Not taken his defensive assignment on tough enough when they challenge him. Not attempting to get his man into foul trouble on the offensive end. There are to many streches in a game where you just forget Marvin is on the floor. Is he fine with that or is it woody holding him back? With comments he has made throughout his career I would say he was ok being in the background on this team. That simply isn't enough for alot of fans or this organization. The Hawks don't have the luxury of having a top pick be just another player. As you can see by there record they are in desperate need of dynamic players who make themselves and there teammates better. Marvin is expected to do this sooner than later.

His uninterested attitude on the court just makes what he said in the interview show this guy doesn't have the desire or will to be great. He may just be another guy playing basketball because he is tall, can jump high and hit jump shots. It takes more than the capability to those things to be great in the NBA. Hustle, heart and determination play a big role into it and I just don't see it in Marvin.

I'll say this again, its sad when a players fan wants that player to be great more than that player does. Don't pull a Billy Knight and hitch on the bandwagon to a guy who does not desire to be the best. I have never heard Marvin say that was one of his goals and he doesn't play like it is on the court.

[Diesel]

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The employee's job is to perform to the best of his ability. The expectations somebody has are irrelevant.

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Do you work?

Doesn't sound like it. You must be one of these school lifers.

The truth is that the employees job is to complete the task given to him by the employer. He must meet the employer's expectation and if he doesn't he gets fired. Usually, my poor friend, if the employer gives a lot, he expects a lot. Nobody is going to hire you and give you 7 figures "in the real world" without some sort of expectation placed on you.

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If someone thinks Royal Ivey is the next Magic Johnson, is it Ivey's fault if he doesn't live up to that expectation?

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When Royal Ivey starts making Magic Johnson money and playing Magic Johnson minutes and given Magic Johnson "credit" he has to ever live up to that or be demoted. The problem with you and many like you is that you have flacid demands for Marvin. IN fact, some of you all have absolutely no expectations of Marvin and you would just be happy saying well, he's never going to live up to being picked where he was, let's just let him play 38 mpg, starting, and move on... You say this with no regards of what he gives us. i.e. he's giving us 2nd string effort and you want to continue treating him like 1st round, 1st string, play!

You can't have it both ways.

He can't be a bust and no expectations put on him while...he play the minutes and receive the salary and the clout of 2nd pick overall. We seem to be keeping better players off the floor in order to make sure that Marvin is the starting Sf. Why??

[exodus]

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When Royal Ivey starts making Magic Johnson money and playing Magic Johnson minutes and given Magic Johnson "credit" he has to ever live up to that or be demoted. The problem with you and many like you is that you have flacid demands for Marvin.

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No it is just a matter of facing the facts.

Marvin was drafted because he allegedly had more talent and upside than Paul and Deron.

Let me as you a simple yes or no question. Do you think Marvin has more talent than Paul and Deron?

[exodus]

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But do you feel Marvins performance has been up to par?

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No i have been disappointed with him overall. This year is definitely time for him to produce. Last year he missed a lot of time with his hand injury and the year before he was a raw rookie. So i can give him the benefit of the doubt.

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But do you realize after he has been drafted with a top pick that his organization and fans should hold him to high standards?

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Where he was picked is irrelevant. Once he gets picked he is a Hawk. He will probably never live up to being the number 2 pick no matter what he does. He simply doesn't have a much talent as people thought before the draft.

Have Chill or Shelden lived up to being the number 6 pick? No but i don't see Diesel doing anything but making excuses for them.

[Diesel]

I have never thought Marvin had more talent than either. However, the question not is not about CP3 or Deron. The question is does Marvin have more talent than Smoove or Chillz?

The answer of course is no... So the followup is why are we wasting time giving Marvin the start with either Smoove out of position or Chillz on the bench?

In order to be the man at the Sf, you have to play like the man. Marvin has not played like the man. PERIOD.

[Diesel]

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Have Chill or Shelden lived up to being the number 6 pick? No but i don't see Diesel doing anything but making excuses for them.

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Is this a defense of Marvin?

If so, I missed it.

Maybe he's indefensible?

[exodus]

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I have never thought Marvin had more talent than either. However, the question not is not about CP3 or Deron.

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Actually the question is the expectations that people have of Marvin. You just gave your example about an employee being hired for 7 figures yada yada.

You have said repeatedly that the only way Marvin can justify being picked number 2 is if he significantly outperforms Paul and Deron.

The reality is that Marvin just doesn't have the type of talent to do that. However he does have some talent.

So the question is can he live up to his potential. The question is NOT can he live up to being the number 2 pick because we both know there is little chance of that. It is up to him to produce up to his ability on the floor and it is up to Hawk fans not to hold him to a false standard that he simply doesn't have the talent to live up to.