I've withheld posting for awhile...

[gsuteke]

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This whole... debate will be moot if one of those two, Shelden or Horford, can't play the 5.

That's the nail on the head right there, that of course is the real issue. I guess we can't debate it because we have no way of knowing, though I think we all suspect that they can't.

However, there is a glimmer of hope. Many, many have speculated as to when the basketball gods would consider that the Hawks' godawful karma (apparently earned from keeping babcock in place for years beyond when it was perfectly obvious he had no clue) would finally run out. The Dwight Howard draft? Karma still clearly in place. 2005 draft, 2006 draft? Speedy, Lo signing? You tell me.

But this past year's draft... now THERE is a sea change (insert 25 exclamation points). Hawks could have very easily had no picks at all. The Pacers were nosediving and within 1 game of 10th worst in the league with about 8 games left. And the PP balls had to fall just right for us to keep our own pick - just right! Look at what happened.

Could be the tide has turned! It just COULD BE one of them can play meaningful minutes at center.

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we can't debate it because this is a "Marvin hate" thread, not a "Shelden hate" thread. that thread is scheduled to come out Tuesday. Neither of those threads are to be mistaken for the "BK hate" thread which will promptly be unveiled on Friday. All of them coincidentally will be authored by our good friend Walter. Not coincidentally they will resemble 37 other threads started here within the last 6 months.

Horford doesn't have any haters yet. He will though. Oh hold on, that's right. We settled for average and lackluster with Horford. We should have picked the 7 foot twizzle stick from China instead.

How could I forget? Better yet how can I foget without moving to another Hawks board?

[thesheedera]

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If Marvin's workout regime was anything like what he did last year

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If...where's any basis whatsoever for that assumption?

[TexasPete]

His claims need no basis. Half the time, including in this very thread, he forgets what his original position was and contradicts himself. It's fun to watch.

[atlien]

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yeah, my example...

If you have a person making 7 figures... you expect him to be better at his job than some goof making 10 bucks an hour...

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Nah I agree with EX, It's on the employer for paying you so much (even if your talent doesn't warrant it, as you say is the case with Marvin).

The only obligation you have is to work your hardest and try to do things to the best of your ability (which I understand you don't think Marvin is doing, but whatever). Again, Marvin's only obligation is to work his damndest to play the best that he can (even if that will never be to the level of a 2nd pick).

If the guy making 1/10 of what you make (i.e. the 2nd round pick, let's say Monta Ellis) does better than you, but you're still doing the absolute best you can, that's on the employer for being retarded enough to grossly overpay you (or in the comparison, draft you way too high).

And Smoove has earned a starting spot, no doubt, but I, as others have argued in the past (see the Marvin vs. Chill thread), don't think that Marvin or Chill has strongly earned the starting nod. Marvin has and will continue to get the benefit of the doubt because (believe it or not) he still has the tools to develop into a special player. Now if Chill comes in and more strongly earns that spot, then sure, let him start... (waits for some douche to bring in Chill's PER... my response: I know what I see, and I'd rather try to develop Marvin ).

Finally, sometimes the beginning of a new season itself can have a real change on a player. They conciouslly approach the game a little bit different and it translates to the court.

Let's wait to see some game action! This argument sucks.

[drzachary]

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If Marvin's workout regime was anything like what he did last year

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If...where's any basis whatsoever for that assumption?

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Diesel must have hidden a small recording device in Marvin's Spongebob Squarepants backpack.

[khaos7]

Walter's post is one of the main reasons I suggested that the Hawks consider starting Childress over him: to give him a kick in the behind. There is a sense of entitlement when it comes to Marvin. I'm not suggesting that he feels entitled. But the organization and coaching staff has "given" him minutes I don't think he's earned. He hasn't proven anything on the court and I think having someone challenge him for his spot in the lineup might make him step up and prove he's worthy of the #2 pick. To me, I don't see much difference in him and Childress at this point other than Chillz shoots at a better percentage, plays slightly better D, and is more of a distributor. I'm not ready to give up on him. But his attitude towards bettering himself in the offseason, Walter's observations on the way he came to his first "interview", and lack of showing anything "spectacular" is cause for concern. He was the #2 pick in the biggest basketball league in the world; Hawks fans have every right to expect more.

[Diesel]

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There is a sense of entitlement when it comes to Marvin. I'm not suggesting that he feels entitled. But the organization and coaching staff has "given" him minutes I don't think he's earned. He hasn't proven anything on the court and I think having someone challenge him for his spot in the lineup might make him step up and prove he's worthy of the #2 pick.

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This is how I see it as well. People feel that Marvin is worthy of starting because he's the #2 pick overall in the 2005 draft.

NO NO NO my friend. You have to earn it. That's why Marvin's not beating himself up in the gym... or dedicating himself to working on his flaws voluntarily. He may not feel entitled, but if you're going to be the starter anyway... Isn't that entitlement? There should be a standard raised. That standard in my eyes is make him earn it!

[thesheedera]

I don't think he's earned it as much as I don't think anyone else that plays his position has earned it any more than he has, and no one else at his position gives us a better chance at winning.

Josh Smith would but no one has earned PF better than he has, so he's our best PF option.

Joe Johnson would but he's our best SG option.

Some will argue that Childress has been a better player, but Childress has also squandered a great amount of his opportunities by disappearing frequently.

I can understand someone thinking Childress deserves the spot over Marvin, but I can also understand the opposite view. It's not definitive one way or the other, there are pros and cons with both of these guys.

What may be getting ignored is that Childress has been our primary backup at SG as well, which would be difficult to do as the starting SF.

I'm rambling, but my point is that Marvin probably hasn't earned a starting NBA sf spot, but he plays on a team where there just aren't many options, and maybe just maybe the staff feels like making him the starter and Childress the backup at both positions gives the team the best chance at success.

Maybe just maybe it's not some conspircy to further inflate the great Marvin hype machine. Maybe it's just the best we have to offer as one of the youngest teams in the league.

[exodus]

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What may be getting ignored is that Childress has been our primary backup at SG as well, which would be difficult to do as the starting SF.

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Not to mention he hasn't done well as a starter. he has always been noticably better off the bench since he has been here. Last year was no exception.

[thesheedera]

...and just to add another thought - as a huge Marvin fan I would have no problem making him the 6th man in an attempt to light a fire under him and make him feel like he needs to push harder to earn the spot.

I think that's a great idea with a young player, and I think it could work with the luxury of having another adequate option available to start at SF in Childress.

But just because that hasn't happened doesn't mean that anything has been unjutly given to Marvin, and it doesn't mean he has a sense of entitlement.

Our best lineup this season (if Horford proves to be a stud and "earns" the spot) could very well be LAw/Speedy, JJ, Smith, Horford, Zaza.

Personally I hope we see a core group of:

Law, JJ, Marvin, Smith, Horford

...blossom into the group of 5 who get the most pt and finish games on the court, regardless of who the starters are...

with:

Speedy, Salim, Childress, Shelden, Zaza

All playing major roles on the team.

I think this squad has some real potential of growing into a winner. Not a contender without some upgrades down the line, but the foundation feels really good to me right now, for the first time since way too long ago.

[thesheedera]

terrible grammar, time to put down the bottle and hit the sack

[Guest Walter]

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we can't debate it because this is a "Marvin hate" thread, not a "Shelden hate" thread. that thread is scheduled to come out Tuesday. Neither of those threads are to be mistaken for the "BK hate" thread which will promptly be unveiled on Friday. All of them coincidentally will be authored by our good friend Walter. Not coincidentally they will resemble 37 other threads started here within the last 6 months.

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Does GSUteke have anything else to say but "I hate walter" ("but I also secretly love him which is why I insist publically that I 'ignore' him, still respond to him, and send him more emails than a spammer").

It's frankly disgusting. I imagine GSUteke's homecourt posting totals dropped by half with me gone.

Yes, the drafting of SW and MW were HUGE mistakes. Everybody knows it but GSUteke. Still BK keeps his job, wonder of all wonders. MW doesn't even work like it matters. Everybody knows it. He still gets some strange sort of "poor MW for getting drafted so high" favoritism here. As if that isn't tired BS. Anyhow, everybody knows it.

There are reasons to post it. BK shouldn't be able to make similar mistakes with this franchise and retaining MW until his contract year when his POtential is tapped out, his work ethic is further questionable, and his contract is upcoming may be an even bigger mistake than our drafting him. Everybody knows it...but Teke. As much as we all want MW and SW to live happily ever after as Hawks and perinnial allstars, that [censored] ain't happening. Their own limitations, lazy effort, along with team finances will make sure of it. I would love evidence to suggest the contrary but particularly in MW's case recently, even in the best of light conveyed by him, he looks dead-ass disinterested in his NBA career.

W

[TexasPete]

Some people never change. Just pure venom with never a positive word. It's nice that you have been following a player or two around this summer because you know a lot about their workout habits.

Or, your just pulling stuff out of your ass. Whichever.

[Diesel]

What makes Smoove the best candidate for PF??

If you actually forget about need and look at skillset, Smoove is probably the worst person to play the 4.

He doesn't have post offense. Chillz has more post offense then Smoove.

He doesn't play strong one on one defense. He's more of a help defender (Sf).

Mentally, he doesn't even want to be in the low post.

You forget, our team suffers from not scoring easy buckets. We don't score easy buckets because we have guys who are trying to be midrange shooters but not one low post scorer...

Right now, best suited for the PF position is either Horford or Marvin... AND THAT'S only having seen Horford play in college and a few summer league games. We need a low post scorer at the 4.

JSmoove is more suited for the 3. Mentally, he's a 3. In his world of undeveloped game, he is more developed as a 3 than he is as a 4.

Marvin can't be Jsmoove out because Marvin brings nothing tot he table. Anytime there's a question of what Marvin brings, the only answer is " good form on his shot". Basketball is about so much more than that. You have rebounding, defense, intensity, low post scoring, high post scoring, perimeter scoring. Of those things, Marvin can only get it together in one small area... Both Smoove and Chillz trump Marvin every where else.

[exodus]

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JSmoove is more suited for the 3. Mentally, he's a 3. In his world of undeveloped game, he is more developed as a 3 than he is as a 4.

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Yeah his stellar outside shooting, flawless ball handling and quick first step all are perfectly suited for the 3 spot.

[Diesel]

It really has more to do with the alternative.

We can either play Horford who looks to have skills at the 4 and can play the low post...

or

we can play Marvin who has no intensity to his game; bumble and stumbles around, and shoots a worst 3 pt% than Smoove while shooting around 43% from the field with his assortment of pretty midrange shots that don't go in most of the time.

[AHF]

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It really has more to do with the alternative.

We can either play Horford who looks to have skills at the 4 and can play the low post...

or

we can play Marvin who has no intensity to his game; bumble and stumbles around, and shoots a worst 3 pt% than Smoove while shooting around 43% from the field with his assortment of pretty midrange shots that don't go in most of the time.

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I am still hoping that Horford can man the 5 spot in the East. Smith's skill set is definitely better suited for the 4 at this point in his career, IMO. The numbers certainly show that and he needs to spend more time around the basket than on the perimeter on both sides of the ball.

[exodus]

So in other words you want to play Smith at the 3 to accomodate Horford. That is an interesting position coming from you.

[thesheedera]

Why, hasn't Horford earned it by being the #2 pick in the draft?

[Diesel]

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Smith's skill set is definitely better suited for the 4 at this point in his career,

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This is a definite point of debate here. I don't think he has more 4 skills than 3 skills. As a 4, he does nothing that 4 should be able to do. He doesn't 1 low post move. He doesn't play post defense very well. He doesn't even exhibit a desire to play in the low post.

From his play, he desires to be a 3. Most of his shots come from the high post or 3 pt range when we're in the halfcourt. Moreover, he has worked on his ball handling and passing skills.