Decision Tree Branches Regarding Horford

[exodus]

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Do you even understand the concept of RESTRICTED? You have to be UNDER THE CAP to make an offer. How many offers from other teams did Curry, Dalembert and Chander get as RFA's? A combined total of 0. Curry got dealt because Chicago DIDN'T WANT to pay him.

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That is a little unfair. The reason Chandler and Dalembert didn't get offers (that were publically disclosed anyway) were because Chicago and Philly paid huge money to resign both of them. Why listen to offers from other teams when you already have a huge deal from the team that holds your rights?

On Curry, we don't really know what the market was like. Logically, you would assume that some team with cap room was willing to make a comparable bid for Curry to the one NY did (or they would just be bidding against themselves). With Isiah in charge, though, there is no reason to assume logic was part of the picture. They did pay heavily both in salary and picks, though, which speaks to his FA value.

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Chandler went a long time without a deal. They didn't sign him right away. It might have been August that he finally signed. I am not sure about Daly but i do think he signed fairly quickly.

last year gooden and Wilcox got no offers either. This year Varejao hasn't gotten any.

And Nene had missed a season which certainly wouldn't increase demand.

[exodus]

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(And Speedy's deal was $6M/year).

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And Blo's was 2. What is 6 + 2?

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Come Ex, you know better. You don't HAVE TO BE under the cap, you simply have to include enough picks and desirable contracts to entice the team owning the rights to a S&T.

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Duh. The Hawks wouldn't have been looking to do a SNT deal so any SNT offers would be irrelevant.

Chicago had no intention of signing Curry but still got a great trade for him.

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The reason they paid as much as they did was because that was the least the agent was allowing Nene to sign for knowing there were good offers on the table from other teams.

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From who? Us. Thats it. They were worried about us paying more. We were the only ones who could have.

[mrhonline]

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If he's not the solution there at center on the defensive end, the choice either has to be Shelden or Smoove ( strictly off of his athleticism ). If Horford becomes a very good offensive PF, you at least have to protect him on the other end, with a player who can play tough defense against the other team's best frontline player.

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I'm afraid that might be wishful thinking, unfortunately. Horford will get the "Marvin Williams" treatment in that his 'potential vs. cost' will give him a major advantage over the other forwards.

In other words, Horford was drafted knowing that either Smith or Shelden will have to be traded if Al can't man the center position.

[mrhonline]

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And Blo's was 2. What is 6 + 2?

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What's 60 - (24 + 6)?

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any SNT offers would be irrelevant.

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Only if there were willing to pay him at least $10M/season, which is VERY relevant.

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Chicago had no intention of signing Curry but still got a great trade for him.

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No, they didn't want to give him a long-term deal because of his health. And since it only takes one team with a better offer to entice an agent, a S&T was done.

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From who? Us. Thats it. They were worried about us paying more. We were the only ones who could have.

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Completely and utterly wrong. Your stubbornness does not make you right, ex.

[gsuteke]

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It is his offense and rebounding that have been question marks.

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You look at the guy's frame and athleticism and wonder why the heck he isn't an impact rebounder. I have never understood that one.

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I read that Nene has 0 vertical leap. that was a big concern after he tore up his knee.

bad jumper with a bad knee = bad problem

How many of you would trade Law for Nene?

[coachx]

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In other words, Horford was drafted knowing that either Smith or Shelden will have to be traded if Al can't man the center position.

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Over simplificaion. He was drafted to strengthen the front court and add more depth. We only had 3 guys deserving of playing time and one was over used (ZaZa).

We only had one guy capable of playing the PF effectivly. That is Smith. Sheldon showed he was too slow. All his good games came when he was playing at center.

Horford will play PF the 15 minutes a night that Smith needs to rest. This will help stop the nightly layup drill our opponent puts on us for the quarter of the game Smith can't play.

For Horford's other 15 minutes of floor time he will be giving us better play then ZaZA or Sheldon could at C.

Hopefully when our jumpers are not falling we can go down low to "The Real Big Al" for a bucket to help prevent those prolonged scoring droughts.

Seems like he will be real help and help our team play a full 48 minute game with defensive lapses.

[mrhonline]

Once again, this is my big "screw you" to Exodus. (Love ya' man, but you're wrong).

This is from someone who works for the Denver Nuggets:

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We know who is, and we have a pretty good handle on who he can be for us. The Hawks were after him big-time (this was before the court decision), the Bulls were interested (if they struck out on Wallace, Nene was next) and

we were called for sign & trades by 9 teams, each of whom would have given him a Dampier contract.

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...His new agent is renowned for getting his players overpaid. He told us unequivocally that if we made Nene play for the tender, then he would absolutely not re-sign with us under any circumstances.

We made the decision that we were comfortable with Nene at that number if we could get some nice deferrals.

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11 teams were interested in overpaying Nene, Ex. And the reason they were interested in trading him to the Hawks was that they thought that the Hawks would offer him the max if the ownership fiasco hadn't materialized. The Nuggets DID NOT want to pay him the max,and were already making contingencies to trade him if necessary (e.g., the deferrals).

Funny thing is, Steve Belkin prevented the Hawks from making the huge mistake of giving Nene the max.

[exodus]

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Completely and utterly wrong. Your stubbornness does not make you right, ex.

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So who was offering him a big deal besides us?

*crickets*

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Only if there were willing to pay him at least $10M/season, which is VERY relevant.

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How? Is the Cap Fairy going to let them make an offer even though they don't have cap space?

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What's 60 - (24 + 6)?

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So are you trying to say that signing speedy and Blo was a better value than signing nene? If so i am glad you are an english teacher and not a math teacher.

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No, they didn't want to give him a long-term deal because of his health

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and the facts that he is a lazy black hole who doesn't rebound or play D and turns it over a lot. Not to mention a guy named Chandler.

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And since it only takes one team with a better offer to entice an agent, a S&T was done.

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And it takes Isiah to get shafted trading so much for a player that the Bulls didn't want to resign.

[mrhonline]

Coachx, I'm looking ahead to the financial repercussions of trying to maintain a young frontcourt like the one the Hawks currently have. (I am not making a statement on who I think is the best player).

The Hawks will NOT be able to keep all of their young bigs. At least one will be gone, and since Horford's projected production/skill set vs. cost is the best value, he'll be here to stay. It doesn't matter whether he succeeds at CR, he'll be retained for all four years of the deal.

I think the Hawks are going to use this season to determine whether Zaza or Shelden should be kept long-term, and the same is true for Smith vs. Marvin.

[exodus]

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Once again, this is my big "screw you" to Exodus. (Love ya' man, but you're wrong).

This is from someone who works for the Denver Nuggets:

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We know who is, and we have a pretty good handle on who he can be for us. The Hawks were after him big-time (this was before the court decision), the Bulls were interested (if they struck out on Wallace, Nene was next) and

we were called for sign & trades by 9 teams, each of whom would have given him a Dampier contract.

...

...His new agent is renowned for getting his players overpaid. He told us unequivocally that if we made Nene play for the tender, then he would absolutely not re-sign with us under any circumstances.

We made the decision that we were comfortable with Nene at that number if we could get some nice deferrals.

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11 teams were interested in overpaying Nene, Ex. And the reason they were interested in trading him to the Hawks was that they thought that the Hawks would offer him the max if the ownership fiasco hadn't materialized. The Nuggets DID NOT want to pay him the max,and were already making contingencies to trade him if necessary (e.g., the deferrals).

Funny thing is, Steve Belkin prevented the Hawks from making the huge mistake of giving Nene the max.

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You obviously don't know what Dampier makes if you think this somehow proves you right. In fact it just shows that the market for Nene isn't as strong as you make it out to be. A Dampier contract would be LESS THAN he actually signed for.

Stick to english. Math isn't your strength.

[mrhonline]

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So who was offering him a big deal besides us?

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See above. (10 other teams).

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How? Is the Cap Fairy going to let them make an offer even though they don't have cap space?

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Yes. It's in the CBA. Teams can make S&T's even if they are over the cap.

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So are you trying to say that signing speedy and Blo was a better value than signing nene? If so i am glad you are an english teacher and not a math teacher.

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No, I'm saying that signing veterans to fill roster gaps in order to maintain long-term flexibility was a better value than signing Nene to a bloated contract.

I doubt many on here disagree with me.

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and the facts that he is a lazy black hole who doesn't rebound or play D and turns it over a lot.

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And someone STILL overpaid for him. That's MY point.

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And it takes Isiah to get shafted trading so much for a player that the Bulls didn't want to resign.

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The NBA is never short of idiotic GM's. That much we can agree on.

[mrhonline]

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Stick to english. Math isn't your strength.

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Actually, it is. (I've always performed better in math. Strange, I know).

But I could say the same pithy things about your reading comprehension skills:

Dampier to get seven years, $73M

Dampier's deal is equivalent to Nene's (the CBA was changed between the two deals), and is yet another example of a capped out team completing a S&T for a big man.

[exodus]

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Yes. It's in the CBA. Teams can make S&T's even if they are over the cap.

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But they can't make an offer unless they are under the cap. Simple as that.

So if there are 9 teams looking to pay Nene what he actually signed for again i say so what? it makes no difference.

The only way those teams would have had any relevance to us is if they were going to pay significantly more than we were. The cheapest we could have possibly gotten nene would have been $9 million/yr which BK would have surely paid.

So how are all these teams willing to pay $10 million/yr relevant? they aren't. The only way they would have been relevant is if they would have been willing to offer a max deal. Then it might have been relevant.

The reason Denver signed him is because they were worried about US offering MORE than he signed for. By YOUR OWN ADMISSION nobody else was offering more than he signed for.

[exodus]

I should point out that SNT deals take TWO willing parties not one. You seem to be under the impression that other teams could SNT our players without our consent. it doesn't work like that.

The number of RFAs who have left their teams in a SNT deal is very small compared to the number of RFA's who haven't gotten any offers at all.

And when you consider nene had missed a season due to injury your scenario of a feeding frenzy for his services is just lunacy.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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If he's not the solution there at center on the defensive end, the choice either has to be Shelden or Smoove ( strictly off of his athleticism ). If Horford becomes a very good offensive PF, you at least have to protect him on the other end, with a player who can play tough defense against the other team's best frontline player.

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I'm afraid that might be wishful thinking, unfortunately. Horford will get the "Marvin Williams" treatment in that his 'potential vs. cost' will give him a major advantage over the other forwards.

In other words, Horford was drafted knowing that either Smith or Shelden will have to be traded if Al can't man the center position.

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Well I don't have a problem with that, if the trade nets us a legit big man or a bonafide 2nd scoring option that can get us 20 ppg.

A lot of people around here are absolutely convinced that Smoove is the next star in the making here. I hope they're all right. But if Horford is that "star", then I have no problem parting ways with Smoove or Shelden, to make sure that not only Horford can maximize his star power, but to make the Hawks a better team overall.

Until then, let's hope that the Marvin, Smoove, Horford frontline has such an athletic advantage over people, that it becomes a tremendous asset for the Hawks.

[cordele]

horford just need to play and show what he's got. moving smoove to 3 will not help the team. if he is allowed to play close to the basket he force people to think about if they want to come down the lane. sheldon,Zaza,and horford need to win the other min at 4&5. chill,JJ, and marvin will hold down 2&3

[AtLaS]

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Do you even understand the concept of RESTRICTED? You have to be UNDER THE CAP to make an offer. How many offers from other teams did Curry, Dalembert and Chander get as RFA's? A combined total of 0. Curry got dealt because Chicago DIDN'T WANT to pay him..

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It's funny you use examples of players who were completely unproven as to why they didn't get offers in RFA.

Dalembert was/is horrible, he always goaltends, he's horrible with outlet passes, has ZERO offensive game, was benched that year, and is widely known for having one of the worst BBIQ's in the league. He STILL got 60 million.

Chandler averaged a HUGE 5 and 9 in his last season with the Bulls and was incredibly injury prone. He actually got WORSE in his final year as a Bull. He STILL recieved a huge contract.

Curry was always out of shape, lazy, doesn't rebound, and had a heart condition that was considered a big red flag at the time.

Nene was the same way, he had just come off a torn ACL, it's very risky for a team to just outright offer a HUGE contract to a player that didn't even play that year, and who wasn't even that good before that.

Here is a list of players that received offers in RFA: Gilbert Arenas, Ricky Davis, Jason Terry, Elton Brand, Lamar Odom, Boozer (not really an offer sheet, but he received a big offer and Cleveland could've matched it), Zaza, Corey Maggette, Damien Wilkins, James Posey, Morris Peterson, Trenton Hassell, Trenton Hassell, Maceo Baston, Francisco Elson, Jackie Butler, Jared Jeffries.

There are probably more but I don't feel like looking them up. Yeah, RFA's rarely receive offers .

[gsuteke]

we need the season to start soon before we start choking one another.

[exodus]

I decided to take the filter off just for a laugh. I certainly got one.

When i said RFA's rarely get offers i was referring to players who are actually in demand. I am not talking about marginal bench players which is the majority of your list.

BTW Daly had his best year and was huge against Miami in the playoffs which led to his big deal.

Boozer wasn't an RFA. Cleveland had a cheap option on him that they stupidly didn't pick up. Boozer had begged them not to pick it up and they agreed on the "understanding" that they would resign him to a bigger deal. Boozers rookie contract did NOT run out therefore he was a UFA.

If the Hawks had declined to pick up Josh Smiths option for this coming season then he would have been a UFA this summer.

That leaves very few RFAs considering how many years you went back. Mo Pete didn't even make Sheridans list of top 25 free agents. That leaves Gilbert Arenas, Ricky Davis, Jason Terry, Elton Brand, Lamar Odom. They all had very productive years before they became free agents. They didn't miss a year due to injury like Nene.

Darko was supposed to make big bucks this year. Instead he signed a 2 year MLE deal with Memphis. Varejo is still unsigned. Nocioni got no offers and resigned with the Bulls. What offers did Gerald Wallace get from other teams? Nothing and he was unrestriced and a very good player. Mo Williams? No offers and finally resigned with the Bucks.

Last year Al Harrington was unrestricted and got no offers. He wanted to go to GS but he went to Indy because that is where BK told him to go. If BK didn't like any of the deals he was offered then Al would be playing for the MLE like Darko.

[Guest Walter]

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Only two guys (out of 30) are successful starting centers at Horfords size. That is 7%. Add to that the facts that both of them are athletic freaks and multiple All-Stars and the prospects for success with Horford starting at C get dimmer.

Not to mention that the Suns team/system is tailor made for an undersized center. Ours isn't to say the least.

You guys want to pin your hopes on the 7% while ignoring the 93% of teams who have decided to go with bigger centers. There is NO logical basis for that.

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You forgot to mention that our team is also tied into starting Josh Smith at Pf. He ain't no POWER forward! While he might lack the Sf shot, he likes to take it unlike lacking the Pf post game and NOT liking to use what he doesn't have.

If we're going to play the 7% odds of severely undersized center success we should expect them to be cut in half next to a similarly undersized "power" forward. And mind you, it's not about Horford's success so much as it is about the TEAM'S success WITH two adjacent undersized interior players (one of which who prefers to and plays like a Sf most of the time) night in and night out. I simply can't see it working. I'm just wondering now what the decision tree holds for us. It will be forced upon us sooner rather than later due to contract issues. We must be ready to make a quick decision on how goes, why, and for what.

W