Decision Tree Branches Regarding Horford

[mrhonline]

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You have to work with what you've got.

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You're right, and I challenge everyone to name 5 starting NBA centers under the age of 30 that are impact defenders without being awful offensive players. And then name 1 of those players whom the Hawks actually had a chance of acquiring.

Sometimes I think we need to be reminded of our past to keep things in perspective:

2005 Hawks' frontcourt

Peja Drobnjak

Al Harrington

Tom Gugliotta

Jason Collier

Kevin Willis

Michael Stewart

Obinna Ekezie

2008 Hawks' frontcourt

Al Horford

Shelden Williams

Josh Smith

Zaza Pachulia

Solomon Jones

Lorenzen Wright

For all the (much deserved) crap Knight takes about the backcourt, he's done about as good of a job with the frontcourt as can be expected. (Screw you, Bob Sura).

[exodus]

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And then name 1 of those players whom the Hawks actually had a chance of acquiring.

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Nene. They could have easily had him for Harrington at the trade deadline.

[atlien]

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And then name 1 of those players whom the Hawks actually had a chance of acquiring.

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Nene. They could have easily had him for Harrington at the trade deadline.

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Whoa, how do you know that?

Was there ever a report published saying that deal was on the table?

I'm not doubting that it was, but just b/c you think a deal was proposed (or was on the table) doesnt mean it really was?

I actually think that Denver probably wouldn't deal a young beastly 5 prospect for just Harrington.

[exodus]

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And then name 1 of those players whom the Hawks actually had a chance of acquiring.

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Nene. They could have easily had him for Harrington at the trade deadline.

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Whoa, how do you know that?

Was there ever a report published saying that deal was on the table?

I'm not doubting that it was, but just b/c you think a deal was proposed (or was on the table) doesnt mean it really was?

I actually think that Denver probably wouldn't deal a young beastly 5 prospect for just Harrington.

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Yes it was a real offer.

The rumors were Nene/Watson in a 3 way with Al and Artest. The other rumor was Nene/picks for Al.

KB21 is the biggest BK supporter on this board. He said (apparently quoting Levenson) that the offer at the deadline was Nene/Lonard for Al. it was in the news as well after the trade deadline.

Keep in mind that Nene and Lonard were both hurt at the time but i would have jumped on that deal.

[AHF]

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Keep in mind that Nene and Lonard were both hurt at the time but i would have jumped on that deal.

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That was the great unknown. Nene hadn't proven much at that point and had a significant injury and was demanding big $$s.

At the time of his injury, he was averaging 9.6 ppg, 5.9 rpg and .9 bpg. Last season was his first with a per40rpg higher than 10.

He came back stronger than I would have projected last year after missing an entire season.

[mrhonline]

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Whoa, how do you know that?

Was there ever a report published saying that deal was on the table?

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Nene hasn't consistently proven to be an impact defender, and many Nuggets' fans are beginning to question his work ethic and heart. (Not to mention one particular Brazilian legend who was quite miffed at Nene & Co. this summer).

So, yes, the Hawks could've had Nene, but then they'd had no chance of retaining their corp, since it would have taken at least $10M/year to keep him in Atlanta. (He actually took less money to re-sign with Denver).

Keep in mind that the Nuggets once again tried to trade Nene at last season's deadline, and there were no takers. He's yet to live up to that contract.

[exodus]

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Nene hasn't consistently proven to be an impact defender, and many Nuggets' fans are beginning to question his work ethic and heart.

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You must be stuck in a time warp.

Nene was huge for them last year and did a great job on Duncan in the playoffs. And if you go to any Denver board they will tell you that they are high on Nene and that he isn't available. I can only assume you didn't watch the playoffs.

He has always been an impact defender. It is his offense and rebounding that have been question marks.

[coachx]

I do agree Horford is more of a PF then a center. That does not mean he will not be good for us or was a bad pick.

This is not a response to any one person. Just thoughts on what Horford is needed for the most.....and its not just being a center.

Horford does not need to be a full time center. ZaZa would fit fine starting at C & playing for 15 to 20 minutes a night. A bigger impact would at PF for some of the game......

What we need is some one who can play some interior defense and challenge some shots for the 13-5 minutes a night Josh Smith is out of the game. We have no back up PF. Of course this is not Horford's only role as a rookie, but those 15 minutes a night Smoove is on the bench are very, very important to the out come of the game. This is when teams run wild on us with lay up drills as ZaZa and Marvin look on with little to offer in ways of stopping it. Horford would help tremendously here. Marvin is too weak for PF minutes and Sheldon is too slow for PF minutes.

You know, the coaches and players alwayse say their biggest problem is playing 48 consistent minutes. A big part of the team's problem here is due to having no interior defensive presence, who can challenge shots, for 1 quarter out of every game. That hurts alot ! I would love to see a stat with how well we scored vs. our oppoents while J. Smith was on the floor vs. when he was not. For that quarter game / 13-15 minutes Smith is on the pine I bet we are out scored by a pretty good margin compared to the 33-35 minutes he is on the floor. Horford would also probably be our best interior scorer and help limit some of those long scoring droughts where the jumpers are not falling (whether he is at C or PF).

This is where we need Horford as much as we need him at center. To play PF while Smoove is getting his rest each night. To hold down the fort and keep some resemblence of a defensive presence on the floor at all times. Woody has to use the depth to our advantage and prevent these major lapses of good play the Hawks are known to show by using players minutes at the right time. Its not just how many minutes you give your players, its when you give them those minutes that is more important. Some one who can alter shots and grab 10 rebounds on any given night besides Smoove is a major help to any team. The fact that Horford can back up Smoove up and play with him is major plus.

Then for the 15 minutes a night team plays a smaller center....Boom ! Horford is your answer.

This is how it COULD play out. 50% PF and 50% center.

It will be so nice to have a fairly deep and versatile team.

Who ever is playing best on a given night and based on the match up plays at C to close out the game beside Smoove at PF.

This team will be able to make alot of in game adustments that a coach could really game plan around and play to his advantage.

[exodus]

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Keep in mind that Nene and Lonard were both hurt at the time but i would have jumped on that deal.

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That was the great unknown. Nene hadn't proven much at that point and had a significant injury and was demanding big $$s.

At the time of his injury, he was averaging 9.6 ppg, 5.9 rpg and .9 bpg. Last season was his first with a per40rpg higher than 10.

He came back stronger than I would have projected last year after missing an entire season.

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His injury was in November. The trade deadline was in Feb and it was reported at the time that his rehab was ahead of schedule and that he might return that season.

Sure it was a risk. However the hawks wouldn't have had to actually pay him until that summer when they would know exactly how his recovery had gone. They also wouldn't have had to deal with many bidders.

Only Chicago and NOK could have been expected to make an offer and nene was number 2 behind Ben Wallace on Chicago's wish list. That leaves only NOK who would have had to chose between a healthy Chander that Chicago was looking to deal vs a player who had missed a season that the Hawks didn't want to lose.

[AHF]

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It is his offense and rebounding that have been question marks.

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You look at the guy's frame and athleticism and wonder why the heck he isn't an impact rebounder. I have never understood that one.

[mrhonline]

Ex, I frequently read the posts at the most popular Nuggets' forum and they don't feel that way at all.

The playoff match vs. Duncan was the highlight of Nene's career, not something he has consistently shown. Even then, he only averaged 15/8, allowed Duncan to average 20/11/3, and the Spurs dominated the series.

He's a 15/8 big man who has had trouble staying fit, healthy, motivated, and consistent. I've always thought he could be a 17/9 player, but I think the same can be said for Horford. (And it certainly doesn't hurt playing next to one of the smartest big men and THE BEST help defender in the NBA).

[mrhonline]

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Only Chicago and NOK could have been expected to make an offer and nene was number 2 behind Ben Wallace on Chicago's wish list. That leaves only NOK who would have had to chose between a healthy Chander that Chicago was looking to deal vs a player who had missed a season that the Hawks didn't want to lose.

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Ex, we've been over this a million times. Suffice it to say that I am certain that there were over a half a dozen teams interested in Nene, including teams looking to do a S&T.

While I think he's an above average big man (who should be better than he is), I can't fault Knight for ending up with Shelden/Horford/Zaza/Smith.

[exodus]

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Suffice it to say that I am certain that there were over a half a dozen teams interested in Nene, including teams looking to do a S&T.

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So what?

Only team under the cap could have made an offer. And those were Chicago and NOK. It doesn't matter if 20 teams were looking to do a SNT.

[mrhonline]

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So what?

Only team under the cap could have made an offer. And those were Chicago and NOK. It doesn't matter if 20 teams were looking to do a SNT.

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Remind me to not hire you as my agent when I become a star professional athlete. (It's gonna happen, just you wait).

[exodus]

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The playoff match vs. Duncan was the highlight of Nene's career, not something he has consistently shown. Even then, he only averaged 15/8, allowed Duncan to average 20/11/3, and the Spurs dominated the series.

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Duncan shot 7% below his season average while being single covered. Most teams have no choice but to double Duncan and he still gets off.

And Nene has been a tough defender his entire career. He had a similar series against KG early in his career which is when i first noticed him.

and after the season i asked Denver fans about the availability of Nene and Camby . They said Camby may be available but Nene definitely wasn't. Sure enough there have been Camby trade rumors floating around.

[exodus]

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So what?

Only team under the cap could have made an offer. And those were Chicago and NOK. It doesn't matter if 20 teams were looking to do a SNT.

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Remind me to not hire you as my agent when I become a star professional athlete. (It's gonna happen, just you wait).

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Do you even understand the concept of RESTRICTED? You have to be UNDER THE CAP to make an offer. How many offers from other teams did Curry, Dalembert and Chander get as RFA's? A combined total of 0. Curry got dealt because Chicago DIDN'T WANT to pay him.

The reason Denver paid as much as they did is because they knew BK was coming after Nene with a big offer. We would have been dealing from a position of strength.

[exodus]

And since you seem so stingy with BK's cap space maybe you can try to explain the merits of paying $8 million/yr to Speedy and Blo vs paying $9 million/yr to Nene.

[AHF]

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Do you even understand the concept of RESTRICTED? You have to be UNDER THE CAP to make an offer. How many offers from other teams did Curry, Dalembert and Chander get as RFA's? A combined total of 0. Curry got dealt because Chicago DIDN'T WANT to pay him.

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That is a little unfair. The reason Chandler and Dalembert didn't get offers (that were publically disclosed anyway) were because Chicago and Philly paid huge money to resign both of them. Why listen to offers from other teams when you already have a huge deal from the team that holds your rights?

On Curry, we don't really know what the market was like. Logically, you would assume that some team with cap room was willing to make a comparable bid for Curry to the one NY did (or they would just be bidding against themselves). With Isiah in charge, though, there is no reason to assume logic was part of the picture. They did pay heavily both in salary and picks, though, which speaks to his FA value.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Boozer plays hardly any center.

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It may not say it on the stat sheet, but Boozer's role is definitely center in Utah (even if Okur technically gets the designation). It's Boozer who is doing all the inside stuff.

In fact, Boozer might be Horford's best comparison.

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Pretty good observation. Boozer is definitely more of the "center" on offense, seeing that Okur would much rather stay on the outside and play like Dirk.

Defense is the potential problem folks.

We know we're not getting any from ZaZa. Smoove doesn't want to take on the physical banging at center. And while we're hoping Shelden can be tough in the middle, the jury is still out on him as well. So the option we hope works on the defensive end, is Horford.

If he's not the solution there at center on the defensive end, the choice either has to be Shelden or Smoove ( strictly off of his athleticism ). If Horford becomes a very good offensive PF, you at least have to protect him on the other end, with a player who can play tough defense against the other team's best frontline player.

And that's the reason why you usually see a "stiff" at center, when you have a bonafide offensive threat playing the PF.

Initially what I'm hoping for out of Horford, is that he's good enough offensively to become the primary scoring option during certain points in the game when JJ isn't on the floor. Too many times last year, did this offense looked completely lost when JJ was out of the game. A legit inside scoring threat at least does something to alleviate that problem.

[mrhonline]

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Do you even understand the concept of RESTRICTED? You have to be UNDER THE CAP to make an offer

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Come Ex, you know better. You don't HAVE TO BE under the cap, you simply have to include enough picks and desirable contracts to entice the team owning the rights to a S&T.

See Curry, Eddy.

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The reason Denver paid as much as they did is because they knew BK was coming after Nene with a big offer.

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The reason they paid as much as they did was because that was the least the agent was allowing Nene to sign for knowing there were good offers on the table from other teams. Denver's offer had to be competitive, or the agent was going to push for a S&T.

Regardless, he's yet to live up to that contract.

(And Speedy is owed $17M, while Nene is still owed $50+M. In fact, the total salaries remaining to Horford + Shelden + Zaza are less than $40M).