Decision Tree Branches Regarding Horford

[AtLaS]

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I decided to take the filter off just for a laugh. I certainly got one.

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lol yeah right, still not sure why you blocked me, I'm guessing you got sick of all the pwnage I was dishing out.

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Boozer wasn't an RFA. Cleveland had a cheap option on him that they stupidly didn't pick up. Boozer had begged them not to pick it up and they agreed on the "understanding" that they would resign him to a bigger deal. Boozers rookie contract did NOT run out therefore he was a UFA.

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Boozer wasn't an RFA as I said, but he did sign an offer sheet . Cleveland could have matched, but they would've had to clear cap room first, which they probably should've done.

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That leaves Gilbert Arenas, Ricky Davis, Jason Terry, Elton Brand, Lamar Odom. They all had very productive years before they became free agents. They didn't miss a year due to injury like Nene.

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You forgot Maggette. I guess I got off topic to address something I've seen you say numerous times, that RFA's rarely sign offer sheets, mainly in reference to Smith and that you aren't worried about him becoming an RFA. Smith fits the description of these players which is why I want him resigned this offseason.

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What offers did Gerald Wallace get from other teams? Nothing and he was unrestriced and a very good player. Mo Williams? No offers and finally resigned with the Bucks.

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Wallace still received a huge deal, but he's also very injury prone. Mo Williams sucks, he'll be considered a bad contract after next year. Milwaukee WAY outbidded themselves.

[AtLaS]

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If we're going to play the 7% odds of severely undersized center success we should expect them to be cut in half next to a similarly undersized "power" forward. And mind you, it's not about Horford's success so much as it is about the TEAM'S success WITH two adjacent undersized interior players (one of which who prefers to and plays like a Sf most of the time) night in and night out. I simply can't see it working. I'm just wondering now what the decision tree holds for us. It will be forced upon us sooner rather than later due to contract issues. We must be ready to make a quick decision on how goes, why, and for what.

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We've been over this 1000x already, noone knows anything more than anyone else until it's proved on the floor. Even if Horford can't play center (he can IMO), he still has a ton of trade value around the league, as does Smith. Having 2 very good PF's is not a bad thing.

[exodus]

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I'm guessing you got sick of all the pwnage I was dishing out

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Problem is you dish it out to yourself.

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I guess I got off topic to address something I've seen you say numerous times, that RFA's rarely sign offer sheets,

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Which is true. Look how many years you had to go back to find any. Try finding some within the last 4 years.

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Cleveland could have matched

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No they couldn't. If they had the rights to match the cap room wouldn't have been necesary. You can only match and retain a free agent when you have their restricted rights.

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Wallace still received a huge deal, but he's also very injury prone.

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I think it is just the way he plays that makes him injury prone. I think he earned his money although i admit i don't know what he signed for.

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Mo Williams sucks, he'll be considered a bad contract after next year. Milwaukee WAY outbidded themselves.

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If Mo sucks that certainly doesn't speak to well for our pgs. He averaged 17/6. He was the second best fa pg available.

[exodus]

Thanks for the award but i can go without seeing this phrase again.....

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two adjacent undersized interior players

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[AtLaS]

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Which is true. Look how many years you had to go back to find any. Try finding some within the last 4 years.

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That is because most teams are smart enough to get top players resigned after year 3, thus not letting them become RFA.

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Cleveland could have matched

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No they couldn't. If they had the rights to match the cap room wouldn't have been necesary. You can only match and retain a free agent when you have their restricted rights.

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Like I said, he wasn't an RFA, but they could've matched.

While the Cavs have the right to match the Utah offer, they are only about $4 million under the current cap and would have to trade and/or renounce the rights to a number of players to clear enough room to sign Boozer.

He wasn't an RFA meaning they had to renounce or trade players in order to do it, but it WAS an offer sheet that they could've matched.

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If Mo sucks that certainly doesn't speak to well for our pgs. He averaged 17/6. He was the second best fa pg available.

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His numbers look good, but he isn't worth NEARLY 52 million. He was basically the goto guy who dominated the ball on a horribly injured Bucks team. He's probably the worst defensive PG in the league, doesn't have a good A/TO ratio, and is more of an SG than anything. Just wait, he'll be a horrendous contract soon.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And that 2 out of 30 ( 7% number ) is so misleading, it's pitiful. Quite a bit of those high scoring PF, see significant minutes at center. The center beside the PF is a complete stiff.

But like you said teke, we've gone through this 1000x before.

[Diesel]

I think you need to get back to basic...

Horford's skillset is more suited to a PF.

We have guys who can play C.

So the only real question is how long do you continue to bench Horford while you continue to play Smoove out of position?

[exodus]

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That is because most teams are smart enough to get top players resigned after year 3, thus not letting them become RFA.

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You mean like Wilcox and Gooden? How many offers did they get? The same number as Chandler, Curry, Mo, Wallace, Nocioni, varejao.....

Has Deng signed an extension yet? How about Iggy? Smith? Biedrins? Jefferson?

Now that i think about it i don't think Okafor has an extension yet.

[BeeSwatter]

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Regarding Horford. I don't think he was but others believe he was the 3rd best player. However, nobody in their right mind translates that to WHEN PLAYED OUT OF THEIR NBA POSITION. He isn't the 3rd best player when asked to play the center position. He certainly wasn't the 3rd best prospect regardless of position and after the MW draft failure and the realization that we as a team have two "stars" that in no way, shape, or form compare to a single, solitary top 10 NBA team's top 2 players last year, we still lack a superstar. This was our last chance to get one. Last chance. Oh well.

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I am confused and maybe I missed one of your draft posts, but who was the 3rd best talent in this draft in your opinion? Who was the superstar that we missed out on?

[exodus]

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Regarding Horford. I don't think he was but others believe he was the 3rd best player. However, nobody in their right mind translates that to WHEN PLAYED OUT OF THEIR NBA POSITION. He isn't the 3rd best player when asked to play the center position. He certainly wasn't the 3rd best prospect regardless of position and after the MW draft failure and the realization that we as a team have two "stars" that in no way, shape, or form compare to a single, solitary top 10 NBA team's top 2 players last year, we still lack a superstar. This was our last chance to get one. Last chance. Oh well.

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I am confused and maybe I missed one of your draft posts, but who was the 3rd best talent in this draft in your opinion? Who was the superstar that we missed out on?

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He wanted Yi.

We had a thread in June where a lot of the regulars went on record about who they wanted to draft. it will be interesting to look back at that thread in a few months.

[BeeSwatter]

I would hardly call Yi a superstar in waiting. Thanks Exodus Yi was who I figured he was talking about.

[mrhonline]

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But they can't make an offer unless they are under the cap. Simple as that.

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That's not true, Ex. They do have to use a S&T (which puts them at the mercy of the team holding the player's rights), but capped out teams complete S&T's ALL THE TIME. Two things have to happen for this scenario to work:

1.) The team holding the player's rights has to decline to propose an offer competitive to the one offered by the other team.

2.) The team seeking the player's rights must offer a nice compensation package (i.e., draft picks) to convince the other team to trade him.

I'm not going to argue this with you anymore because you're too stubborn to go and read Larry Coon's CBA FAQ.

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is if they would have been willing to offer a max deal. Then it might have been relevant.

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Reading between the lines, there were teams that were considering that. (And that would have been a HUGE mistake). Nene made those considerations moot when he agreed to Denver's competitive offer. (Competitive in the sense that 99% of the pundits thought they overpaid).

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nobody else was offering more than he signed for.

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Because Denver upped their offer to something competitive. That's MY POINT, not yours. Had Denver decided it didn't want to pay $10M/year to a player that hadn't played in over a year, a S&T would have been completed. Nene was NOT going to take the QO when there were terrific offers on the table from multiple teams.

That would have held true for the Hawks just as it did the Nuggets. And let's not even start to consider how difficult re-signing Nene would have been given the ownership fiasco. That would have been a total embarrassment, I'm sure.

[exodus]

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1.) The team holding the player's rights has to decline to propose an offer competitive to the one offered by the other team.

2.) The team seeking the player's rights must offer a nice compensation package (i.e., draft picks) to convince the other team to trade him.

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Niether point is even relevant in this case. If the Hawks had nene they would have made a competitive offer and they wouldn't have been looking to trade him. it isn't that complex.

If the team holding his rights doesn't want to deal teams over the cap can do NOTHING.

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Because Denver upped their offer to something competitive. That's MY POINT, not yours.

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And your point is irrelevant.

Denver signed him quickly NOT because they were worried about teams over the cap outbidding them. They were worried about being outbid by a team UNDER the cap, specifically US.

Not to mention that Denver had proposed a similar offer the previous year.

If we held Nene's rights the only team we would have had to worry about is NOK and they probably would have rather had a healthy Chandler. The teams over the cap would have been irrelevant.

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Nene was NOT going to take the QO when there were terrific offers on the table from multiple teams.

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Irrelevant strawman. Neither i nor Denver had any intention of going that route.

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And let's not even start to consider how difficult re-signing Nene would have been given the ownership fiasco. That would have been a total embarrassment, I'm sure.

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The ruling didn't apply to contract negotiations that were already in progress.

[TheDude]

the problem is that most people are looking at what Horford ISN'T when if you actually look around the league, most teams' centers AREN'T all that much for Horford to handle. sure there are some that will give him trouble like Yao, Shaq, and Pau, but it's not like most teams have centers who will perform better than Horford...or more importantly on the offensive side of the ball can overpower him...

not to mention he's not going to do it for 40 minutes a game...he has help in zaza and shelden. although i do agree that i hope shelden has gotten stronger in the offseason...

[exodus]

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or more importantly on the offensive side of the ball can overpower him

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although i do agree that i hope shelden has gotten stronger in the offseason...

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These two statements don't go together very well when you consider that Shelden tested stronger than Horford and was the two time DPOY in college.

[AtLaS]

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You mean like Wilcox and Gooden? How many offers did they get? The same number as Chandler, Curry, Mo, Wallace, Nocioni, varejao.....

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None of those players were NEAR as good in their 4th years as Smith was in his 3rd year. It's a different situation. Gerald Wallace wasn't an RFA this year, so that's moot.

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Has Deng signed an extension yet? How about Iggy? Smith? Biedrins? Jefferson?

Now that i think about it i don't think Okafor has an extension yet.

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I'm sure one or more of them will get done sooner or later. If not, I guarantee they will recieve huge offers in RFA. But they will end up being S&T's because those teams aren't going to let them go for free. If we lose Smith, I'm sure it would be an S&T.

[atlien]

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although i do agree that i hope shelden has gotten stronger in the offseason...

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Strength is basically the only thing Shelden actually does have going for him (i.e. he doesn't need to get stronger). Hopefully he has gotten more skilled, atheltic, quick, tenacious, willing to do the dirty work inside, etc etc etc. I have my doubts though.

[Traceman]

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While he might lack the Sf shot, he likes to take it unlike lacking the Pf post game and NOT liking to use what he doesn't have.

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So based on your logic, it is better for Smoove to continue to shoot 3's that he makes at a 25% clip because he LIKES to shoot them than it is for him to be forced to develop a post game and take shots closer to the basket that he makes at a much higher rate? With that logic, why ask Marvin to be more aggressive and drive to the hoop? I mean he LIKES to shoot J's and unlike Smoove, he actually makes them at a decent rate!

I think you are worrying too much about who starts where and who plays beside whom. While Horford might start at Center and Smoove might start at PF, I think it is very conceivable to see Horford playing mostly PF and Smoove playing mostly SF against certain teams. It will (or should) all depend on matchups. We might do better against some teams with:

Horford

Smoove

Marvin

JJ

Speedy

Against other teams, we may do better with:

Zaza

Horford

Smoove

JJ

Law

or

Shelden

Horford

Smoove

JJ

Law

or

Horford

Smoove

Marvin

Chillz

JJ

The bottom line is that regardless of who starts, there are plenty of minutes to go around in the front court and there are plenty of combinations that we can use based on the strengths/weaknesses of the other team.

[Diesel]

Putting a player in a position and telling him to do the roles of that position won't make him that...

See MJ and the PG position.

Smoove has been at the 4 position all year now..

He has shown no interest in doing those things which are neccessary for the 4 skillset.

It seems that his desire is elsewhere on the floor..

That is a better predictor of position than who we have...

Part of everybody's problem with Darko is that they want to pigeon hole him into either C or PF position. His desire is to do neither. Therefore, he looked bad until he found a team willing to play him like a 3.

Or Okur in Detroit with the bad boys. Nobody knew he could be as good as he is with Utah... But you put him in the position where he's most comfortable and viola.

[AHF]

Smith looks darn good at PF, IMO!

Are you saying that playing him on the perimeter will result in him looking better than he would with interior responsibilities?