Is It Too Soon?

[DJlaysitup]

Personally...I would say between 34 and 42 (depending on injuries). Had we gotten Luke Ridnour we would be looking at 50+.

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

Funny that you criticize my reasoning but your prediction on the number of wins is almost identical to mine.

---

Sorry if I came across that way but I wasn't criticizing you per say but objecting to that particular excuse which I've heard a lot from various observers. I'm just not buying it. But you are right with your assessment of the Bulls! They won with defense. And it wasn't because they had superior athletes but because their coaching staff was able to instill that mind set onto the Bull's team. The Hawks staff should be able to accomplish the same with our team.

[AtLaS]

Just because a team has a defensive coach doesn't mean that they can magically turn their team into a good defensive one just because of a "defensive mindset." The fact is that PJ Brown, Chandler, Big Ben, Kirk Hinrich and Luol Deng are all GREAT defenders, regardless of what teams they would play on. Nocioni and Duhon are also good defenders, and Tyrus Thomas and now Joakim Noah will also be very good..

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

The fact is that PJ Brown, Chandler, Big Ben, Kirk Hinrich and Luol Deng are all GREAT defenders, regardless of what teams they would play on.

---

Not sure that Chandler, Hinrich, and Deng were know for being great defenders coming out of college/high school.

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

The fact is that PJ Brown, Chandler, Big Ben, Kirk Hinrich and Luol Deng are all GREAT defenders, regardless of what teams they would play on.

---

Not sure that Chandler, Hinrich, and Deng were know for being great defenders coming out of college/high school.

---

Coming out of high school, it's basically impossible to tell if someone's going to be a good defender since they haven't played any kind of significant competition.

And YES Kirk Hinrich was considered a great defender before he was drafted. Here's one predraft writeup on him. It's the same with Luol Deng, read the strengths in both of their profiles. Both were considered very good defenders in college.

[Johnnybravo4]

I think we are the Toronto of this year. In fact, I think that we are better this year than Toronto was last year. 45 wins.

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

I think we are the Toronto of this year. In fact, I think that we are better this year than Toronto was last year. 45 wins.

---

I agree, I also have high expectations for this team. I also think Toronto WAY over-succeeded (is that a word?) last year and wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even make the playoffs this year.

Bosh is really the only player they have, they have 2 pretty good PGs, but everyone else on their roster is extremely average. Bargnani is GARBAGE, and I hear they are planning on playing him at center this year. That's absolute DEATH for their defense and rebounding. Who's going to score inside for that team? Who's going to rebound? Who's going to play interior defense? They have a lot of HUGE question marks.

[DJlaysitup]

Quote:

---

..Bosh is really the only player they have, they have 2 pretty good PGs, but everyone else on their roster is extremely average. Bargnani is GARBAGE, and I hear they are planning on playing him at center this year. That's absolute DEATH for their defense and rebounding. Who's going to score inside for that team? Who's going to rebound? Who's going to play interior defense? They have a lot of HUGE question marks.

---

As do we. They have two 7-footers and a 6-10 stud at the 4. They also have quality at the PG. They are probably even with us (at least) at the 3. I wouldn't count them out. I hope we crush them though.

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

And YES Kirk Hinrich was considered a great defender before he was drafted.

Here's

one predraft writeup on him. It's the same with

Luol Deng

, read the strengths in both of their profiles. Both were considered very good defenders in college.

---

The write ups about Horford, Childress & Shelden William were similar! Joe Johnson & Speedy were also know for their defense.

From Nba.net

All in all Josh is a super prospect with the athletic ability teams drool over and the defensive skills teams die for.

Tremendous wingspan allows him to play like a 7 footer ... A real defensive presence, a shot blocker who won national defensive player of the year as a junior ... Averages close to 4 blocks per game as a senior ... Should be able to guard centers in the NBA ... Great rebounding ability, boxes out well ... Understands how to defend, has become disciplined (blocks a ton of shots without fouling out very often)

Defensively Horford is a very strong post defender able to use his body strength to disrupt opposing players from setting up … Solid shot blocker thanks to his timing and great anticipation skills

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

..Bosh is really the only player they have, they have 2 pretty good PGs, but everyone else on their roster is extremely average. Bargnani is GARBAGE, and I hear they are planning on playing him at center this year. That's absolute DEATH for their defense and rebounding. Who's going to score inside for that team? Who's going to rebound? Who's going to play interior defense? They have a lot of HUGE question marks.

---

As do we. They have two 7-footers and a 6-10 stud at the 4. They also have quality at the PG. They are probably even with us (at least) at the 3. I wouldn't count them out. I hope we crush them though.

---

I'll take our frontcourt of Horford/Smith over Bosh/Bargs ANY DAY of the week. Just think about how bad Bosh/Bargs will be defensively. Think about how horrible they will be at rebounding. Bosh is a good rebounder but he won't be able to make up for Bargnani's 3.9 rebounds per game if Bargs plays the center position.

How are their SFs equal to ours? Joey Graham is complete garbage. I'm not a Marvin fan but him and Chill >>>> Graham. Joe Johnson is MILES ahead of Anthony Parker at the SG position. They have us at the PG position though, but again Ford and Calderon are horrible defensively.

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

The write ups about Horford, Childress & Shelden William were similar! Joe Johnson & Speedy were also know for their defense.

From Nba.net

All in all Josh is a super prospect with the athletic ability teams drool over and the defensive skills teams die for.

Tremendous wingspan allows him to play like a 7 footer ... A real defensive presence, a shot blocker who won national defensive player of the year as a junior ... Averages close to 4 blocks per game as a senior ... Should be able to guard centers in the NBA ... Great rebounding ability, boxes out well ... Understands how to defend, has become disciplined (blocks a ton of shots without fouling out very often)

Defensively Horford is a very strong post defender able to use his body strength to disrupt opposing players from setting up … Solid shot blocker thanks to his timing and great anticipation skills

---

We don't know how good Horford will be defensively, so I won't comment on that, although I am expecting him to be a good defender. You are basically agreeing with me, I don't see what you're arguing.

The reason we sucked defensively the past 2 years is because we couldn't stop penetration from the PG position, and Zaza is a horrible, horrible defensive center. Chicago doesn't have that problem, and has NEVER had that problem since the baby Bulls made the playoffs. My point (as I stated earlier), is that we could get Skiles to install his "Defensive mindset" or whatever with our 05-06 and 06-07 teams and they would still be HORRIBLE defensively. Chicago has had the players and defensive talent (at key positions) to be a good defensive team, we haven't. THAT is moreso why they have been a good defensive team than Skiles implementing a "defensive mindset" or whatever.

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

I don't see what you're arguing.

---

Who's arguing? Just don't see how Chicago's players are much different from ours defensively except Wallace.

Quote:

---

The reason we sucked defensively the past 2 years is because we couldn't stop penetration from the PG position, and Zaza is a horrible, horrible defensive center.

---

I agree with the Zaza assessment but I don't think that Hinrich is a better defensive point guard than Speedy. My point is there should have not been that much of a discrepancy if you look at both team's athletic talent. If you looked strictly at player's individual defensive abilities, Dallas for example would not have been 4th in the league in team defense last year. Which was better than Chicago! Therefore you have to conclude that the coaching staff has a major influence on its team's willingness to play good defense!

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I don't see what you're arguing.

---

Who's arguing? Just don't see how Chicago's players are much different from ours defensively except Wallace.

---

You are right, but Speedy missed 40 games last year. And Deng is a MUCH better defender than Marvin/Childress. But the difference b/t Wallace/Chandler and Zaza defensively is SO big that it will skew the final results.

PG and Center are really the 2 most important positions to have good defenders, and the Hawks simply haven't had that in a long time. Chicago has.

I'm not saying that coaching doesn't play a role in good team defense, because it does. But it doesn't matter WHO you have coaching your D if you don't at least have adaquate defenders to implement your scheme with.

[T21]

43!

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

PG and Center are really the 2 most important positions to have good defenders, and the Hawks simply haven't had that in a long time. Chicago has.

---

O.K. then explain how Dallas had a better defense than Chicago last year! Are you going to tell me that JT and Dampier were better individually than Hinrich and Wallace?

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

PG and Center are really the 2 most important positions to have good defenders, and the Hawks simply haven't had that in a long time. Chicago has.

---

O.K. then explain how Dallas had a better defense than Chicago last year! Are you going to tell me that JT and Dampier were better individually than Hinrich and Wallace?

---

In fact, the top 5 defensive teams from last year didn't have a point guard or center voted to the 1st or 2nd all defensive team. The top defensive teams were;

San Antonio

Detroit

Houston

Dallas

Cleveland

So I'm not sure whether your theories are correct regarding the importance of individual defenders to team defense. Certainly the point guard and center positions are not the key based on last years results.

[exodus]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

PG and Center are really the 2 most important positions to have good defenders, and the Hawks simply haven't had that in a long time. Chicago has.

---

O.K. then explain how Dallas had a better defense than Chicago last year! Are you going to tell me that JT and Dampier were better individually than Hinrich and Wallace?

---

Teams shot 44.7% against Dallas compared to 43.5% against Chicago. Dallas just played at a slower pace which made their defense look better than it is.

Keep in mind that Dallas has two centers, Diop and Dampier, who have size and can play D. We have none.

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

Teams shot 44.7% against Dallas compared to 43.5% against Chicago.

---

O.k. what about Houston? Teams shot 42.95% against them and no one from their team was named to the 1st or 2nd all defensive team last year. In fact only one person on the entire team received any votes and that was Shane Battier. Please explain!

[exodus]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Teams shot 44.7% against Dallas compared to 43.5% against Chicago.

---

O.k. what about Houston? Teams shot 42.95% against them and no one from their team was named to the 1st or 2nd all defensive team last year. In fact only one person on the entire team received any votes and that was Shane Battier. Please explain!

---

If we had a 7 foot 5 guy who stays under the basket it would probably make our defense a lot better too. Not to mention they also have Deke.

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

If we had a 7 foot 5 guy who stays under the basket it would probably make our defense a lot better too. Not to mention they also have Deke.

---

I hope that you are not suggesting that Ming is a good defender are you? If so you obviously didn't see him against Boozer in the 1st round of the playoffs. My point is that eventhough Houston and other teams are not recognized for their individual defensive excellence, they still can have a superior team defense concept. And so can the Hawks!