Are Hawks half empty or Half full?

[f_town]

i'd be interested to see the future of Roy's recurring foot problems vs. Shelden's possible resurgence after healing the shoulder injury...should be interesting

the only thing i cant figure out about Dark Waldo is, if this is such a doomed franchise, with its overpriced losers and faulty draft picks, why would you even care to enlighten us 'part of the problem' Hawks fans with these devilishly cunning insights on every single thread regarding our upcoming demise?

I thought this was an Atlanta Hawks fan forum rather than a competition for Nostradamus of the Year?

And if so, surely such a prognasticator of such skill like Wally would be better served opining about teams that still have the slightest chance to succeed...

maybe i missed something here.

Go Hawks!

[Edgar]

the Hawks look better on paper than they have in a decade...

But Woody is still the coach.

The Owners are still trying to bomb each other.

BK is still the GM (and he ain't that bad, but he remains powerless...see above)

I still think that the Hawks will be a decent team this year, but our failures will ultimately eclipse us and those failures will rest mostly on Woody's shoulders.

With a good coach, this team would compete in the eastern conference semis at worst.

[Guest Walter]

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maybe i missed something here.

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Because you consider "succeed" as being mediocrity. We are most certainly on the path to it. Nobody questions that a team with a #17, #2, #3, #5, #6, #11 picks and JJ (next year's and other picks) shouldn't win SOMETHING. However those honest with themselves can't help but acknowledge that the decision made do not make for winning something of importance.

We have drafted VERY questionable talent in Childress, SW, and MW at their draft position and have repeatedly failed to meet team building needs drafting 7 forwards out of 8 first rd draft picks going back to DerMarr Johnson without ONCe getting a superstar or distinct mismatch advantage.

We all love the team, just some of us are an impediment to honest assessment and accountability. If you can't be honest about the team, it's management, and their (often your) personel choices, then you are part of the problem. What does ownership have to answer for if all the fans think a 30 win team is a 40 win team or a 35 win team is a 45 win team? Nothing. They can simply rely upon your own ignorance to placate you. You are your own jester and ownerships best defense against accountability.

W

[drzachary]

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Hm. You're still missing the point. Which of the following is the best:

A. belief: "I believe that my dog will die tomorrow."

event: My dog dies.

B. belief: "My dog will live to a ripe old age."

event: My dog dies.

C. belief: "I believe that my dog will die tomorrow."

event: My dog lives to a ripe old age.

D. belief: "I believe that my dog will live to a ripe

old age."

event: My dog lives to a ripe old age.

In conclusion: being right is vastly overrated.

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The point was that for the last 5 years I have accurately predicted the poor health of my dog and have sought veterinary care for it. The last 5 years you have overlooked the poor health of your dog, pretending that it is (10 games) healthier than it is and failing to seek medical attention. While you think your dog is healthier, it is more ill and will die sooner.

I-F Hawk management had been right, we wouldn't have a sick dog now.

W

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Keep the 'moronic' insults to yourself. You're clearly unable to get what should be a very simple point. You've been good at predicting the Hawks' problems. So what? Does it make you happy? Do you want a medal? I'm done discussing this with you.

[DrReality]

Geo. Carlin's line is that the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

[mrhonline]

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You've been good at predicting the Hawks' problems. So what? Does it make you happy? Do you want a medal? I'm done discussing this with you.

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[drzachary]

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Geo. Carlin's line is that the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

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I have used that line many a time

[gsuteke]

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You've been good at predicting the Hawks' problems. So what? Does it make you happy? Do you want a medal? I'm done discussing this with you.

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I think it's fitting, don't you?

[gsuteke]

I took issue with people continuously posting Vick updates as recently as this week in Falcons forum I'm a member of. Another poster made a good point about my protests.

"If you don't respond to his topics they'll be on Page 2 in no time at all."

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Hm. You're still missing the point. Which of the following is the best:

A. belief: "I believe that my dog will die tomorrow."

event: My dog dies.

B. belief: "My dog will live to a ripe old age."

event: My dog dies.

C. belief: "I believe that my dog will die tomorrow."

event: My dog lives to a ripe old age.

D. belief: "I believe that my dog will live to a ripe

old age."

event: My dog lives to a ripe old age.

In conclusion: being right is vastly overrated.

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The point was that for the last 5 years I have accurately predicted the poor health of my dog and have sought veterinary care for it. The last 5 years you have overlooked the poor health of your dog, pretending that it is (10 games) healthier than it is and failing to seek medical attention. While you think your dog is healthier, it is more ill and will die sooner.

I-F Hawk management had been right, we wouldn't have a sick dog now.

W

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Keep the 'moronic' insults to yourself. You're clearly unable to get what should be a very simple point. You've been good at predicting the Hawks' problems. So what? Does it make you happy? Do you want a medal? I'm done discussing this with you.

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[Guest Walter]

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You've been good at predicting the Hawks' problems. So what? Does it make you happy? Do you want a medal? I'm done discussing this with you.

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Two things I hope you are in agreement with.

Delusional about the Hawks? No. Accurate about them? Yes.

Two things you cannot say about yourself.

W

[Guest Walter]

13 out of GSUteke's last 19 HOMECOURT posts have been about or related to ME!

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A lesson we all can learn from HomeCourt gsuteke 10/07/07 08:55 PM

I've decided to debut a new sig HomeCourt gsuteke 10/07/07 08:46 PM

Re: Jermaine O'Neal HomeCourt gsuteke 10/06/07 08:20 AM

Re: What nonsense. HomeCourt gsuteke 10/06/07 08:17 AM

Re: What nonsense. HomeCourt gsuteke 10/05/07 11:54 PM

Re: NBA SGs: Where is Joe Johnson on your list? HomeCourt gsuteke 10/05/07 11:51 PM

Re: NBA SGs: Where is Joe Johnson on your list? HomeCourt gsuteke 10/05/07 05:53 PM

Re: Better to be right than wrong, PERIOD! HomeCourt gsuteke 10/05/07 05:51 PM

Re: NBA SGs: Where is Joe Johnson on your list? HomeCourt gsuteke 10/05/07 05:10 PM

Re: What nonsense. HomeCourt gsuteke 10/05/07 05:03 PM

NBA SGs: Where is Joe Johnson on your list? HomeCourt gsuteke 10/05/07 02:46 PM

Lovefest continues: SI.com Hawks most improvet HomeCourt gsuteke 10/05/07 02:37 PM

What an @sshole HomeCourt gsuteke 10/05/07 02:11 PM

What a [censored]-up YOU are! HomeCourt gsuteke 10/05/07 12:10 PM

I wish like hell we had drafted Sene HomeCourt gsuteke 10/04/07 08:54 PM

Re: We've LOST this coming year's pick? HomeCourt gsuteke 10/04/07 08:43 PM

We've LOST this coming year's pick? HomeCourt gsuteke 10/04/07 08:19 PM

Re: Interesting how you respond to me that way HomeCourt gsuteke 10/04/07 05:35 PM

WRONG! HomeCourt gsuteke 10/04/07 03:44 PM

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SIXTY-NINE PERCENT of what you've posted here in the last 3 days involves your hate towards or an attack by you on me. Sadly, that is not even a hate record for you. Your behavior is shall we say, ugly and obsessive. Wash your hands of it 1000 times or however many it takes.

GSUteke's therapy/punishment?

W

[f_town]

"Because you consider "succeed" as being mediocrity."

???

i said that when?

my whole point that you seem to be alot more oriented towards self-congratulation about your pessimistic projections, rather than any real insight or empathy for those involved with team and their fans. And if essentially all of our draft choices in the last 5 years have been such a series of critical errors as you say, then i cant see what you get out of your participation on this forum except to compete for some Internet Doomcryer of the Year award during our unavoidable crash & burn this upcoming season. Since there is no real hope for the team, wouldnt your time be better spent on a team with a chance for success?

As far as i can tell, your point is that unless we are all following your pattern of mind-numbingly repetitive negative posts and threadjacking of any even mildly positive sentiments, that this message board is singlehandedly supporting and continuing the current disastrous regime?

This argument is nebulous at best.

I can only conclude you get some weird self-gratification from this negative and ultimately self-defeating behavior, and wish that you arent pulling this kind of behavior everywhere you go online and in RL. Its just sad IMHO.

Go Hawks!

[Guest Walter]

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As far as i can tell, your point is that unless we are all following your pattern of mind-numbingly repetitive negative posts and threadjacking of any even mildly positive sentiments, that this message board is singlehandedly supporting and continuing the current disastrous regime?

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No. My posts aren't negative nand they are repeated due to the equally constant inaccuracy of projection prevalent here. They reality of the last 10 years (or did you miss it?) is not one of rainbows and sunny days. However, even I was "optimistic" last year. I projected 34 wins. An optimistic projection it would seem, just not so far outside of reality as some here would have it.

My point is that the bulk of the forum is PROVEN too far to the other extreme. Numbing the pain of the last 10 years with repeated 10-15 game off win total projections and repeated initial blind draft pick support. Almost to the point of being motion-seeking, living-dead "fans". Sure, they complain about something EVENTUALLY when their unrealistic 40-45 win total seasons repeatedly aren't met, Coach Woody this or that, but Woody was there all along or BK was drfting all along, it wasn't Woody or BK who made such ridiculous win total projections or their own draft pick desires, and these individuals in general continue to fall in line behind the 40-45 win seasons.

It's so rampant that these individuals should simply not be believed. The fact is that these individuals usually fall back in line with reality somewhat. GSUteke? He proposed a 2-win improvement over his projection of 40 wins last year. The same two win improvement I chose. Is GSUteke being overly negative not expecting greater than a 2-win improvement with the additions of Law AND Horford over a 40 win projection he (and others) insists we would have reached if not for injuries? At some point here there is a serious disconnect between what people SAY they believe and what people actually believe such that they would back up their belief.

Anyhow, this year I project 36 wins and Horford was the closest I've seen to BK actually getting it anywhere near right IMO since JS. Still I prefered and prefer Yi (and Critt), but the difference is much less than in the past. I'm even optimistic and hold out hope that my fears about such an undersized/skilled frontline will be overcome (However, to the point of changing basketball history? Doubtful.). Still, I too measure my predictions to reflect what I actually believe, not what I WANT to believe. If you want to know what I HOPE for don't ask for a prediction. If you want to know what I believe, do. That cannot be said for at least a good few at this site.

W

[bfwolf]

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Keep the 'moronic' insults to yourself. You're clearly unable to get what should be a very simple point. You've been good at predicting the Hawks' problems. So what? Does it make you happy? Do you want a medal? I'm done discussing this with you.

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While Walter can be abrasive, I think he's made his point on this thread rather eloquently, which is that the accuracy of how one views a sports team is not just a matter of being a told-you-so jerk, but actually allows you to impact the future of the team.

A GM with the view that the team is close to achieving upper-echelon status will make very different decisions than a GM with the view that the team will never be more than slightly above average.

Since people on hawksquawk like to "play" GM with their suggestions on moves the Hawks should make, the accuracy of their views on the current status of the team are relevant in whether we should listen to what you have to say or ignore you.

If fandom to you means that you are just a rabid optimist, then I would love to go to Philips with you to root on the team, but I have no interest in reading your opinions on the Hawks since they will invariably be based on false assumptions.

[gsuteke]

The season hasn't started yet Sugar Britches. When the first game tips off my post count will rise as yours begins to dwindle.

I do have one last post for ya though Sweet Pea.

[drzachary]

Bdawg,

Part of the problem is that we're discussing two different things. Ol' Wally is saying that it's better to predict accurately than falsely, which is fine. I'm saying that it's better to be wrong when you're predicting something bad, so the idea that 'being right is always better' is just plain foolish. I also question the fandom of someone who derives greater benefit from being right about the team doing poorly than being happy about a team doing well! (Not that we've had the latter...)

[TexasPete]

Walter, the honest truth is that if the Hawks ever turn this thing around, you won't know what to do with yourself. Seriously, guys like you live for the rolling in crap stuff. You know it and most on here know it.

Your not "happy" unless your miserable. There isn't one guy on this board who doesn't understand the depth that the Hawks have been into the last 7 years. EVERYBODY knows how bad this franchise has been.

But, you never have anything good to say about anybody. A compliment to you is just the absence of criticism. You live by the creed that if you don't have anything lousy to say...then don't say anything.

[Diesel]

I don't know if it's wrong... I think it's realistic and best informed.

That's what part of the reason we all come to the board. Sometimes many of the squawkers get into this mode of being overly critical (I call it hotlanta syndrome) and sometimes they get into the mode of being overly optimistic (haven't found a name for that yet)... however, there are some here who won't always go with "the crowd" because "the crowd" is not always right either. But everyone fluctuates between critical and optimistic on every subject which makes for debate.

The true problem on this and every message board is when people abandon the conversation (debate) and move to try to devalue the opposing point by either character assassination, strawman, insults or just plain ole crowd mongering.

Someone with a good point never needed a crowd, nor did they ever need to insult, character assassinate, or strawman to validate their point.

The other thing is that to say somebody on any messageboard has an agenda is an oxymoron. Everybody on a messageboard has an agenda. The Hawksquawk messageboard defines the parameters for agenda: "The Essential messageboard for Fans of the Atlanta Hawks." Therefore, it's likely that every poster's agenda is to see the Hawks be the best Hawks that they can be. We all have different ideas of how that agenda is carried out, but that's what makes the debate worthwhile.

[drzachary]

Diesel,

I agree with virtually everything you've said, except:

"Therefore, it's likely that every poster's agenda is to see the Hawks be the best Hawks that they can be."

Self-promotion can sometimes trump Hawk fandom. That's the smaller point I'm making in the midst of the greater point, which was absolutely lost

[Diesel]

I don't really see how that can be though...

There's no real benefit in self promotion. Not true self promotion. I think everybody (except maybe Greymule (maybe he's old enough to know better)) falls into the trap of "I told you so".. That's not really self promotion.. That's ego. Every man has one. Some are more in tuned to their egos than others. Moreover, some people use their ego to help qualify their positions or disqualify the positions of others. I don't know the name of that error but it's scribbled all up and down the messageboard too. i.e. "I was right about that other thing, I must be right about this too"... In my mind, each topic is it's own entity. unrelated to what was said elsewhere... i.e., just because you were right before, doesn't make you right now... and just because you were wrong before, doesn't make you wrong now. I think it's for every reader to determine for him or herself what's right based on the facts of that topic and really nothing else. Because anybody can have an opinion.