Marvin vs. Smoove: The "IT" Factor

[khaos7]

When we drafted Josh Smith and I saw him play a few times, I was like man, all this cat can do is dunk and block.He was stiff, lost focus (still does!), and didn't have any offensive moves.

When we drafted Marvin Williams, I was in awe of his form and his court awareness. It seemed that he knew where to be and when to be there. He came from the heralded UNC program. Most of their highly touted players went on to be forces in the league (MJ, Worthy, Stack, even Sheed has a championship).

However, although Josh's game was awkward, disjointed, and undisciplined, he had something Marvin didn't, in my view: IT.

"It" is what Larry Bird and Magic had. What they lacked in athleticism, they made up in intuitive instinct and saavy.

By no means am I comparing Josh to Magic/Bird or bashing Marvin. But "it" is this unexplainable aura a player has when he steps on the court, that allows him to make plays.Different players have "it" at different degrees. MJ had more "it" than Dominique for instance. But both guys had it. I've watched both players for 4 years (3 for Marvin) and I still don't see "it" in Marvin.

When Tracy McGrady was in Toronto, I didn't think he was better than Vince Carter. But I thought he had "it". Thus, I thought they could go on to be the next Jordan/Pippen combo with McGrady being Scottie. Being Scottie wasn't a bad thing. Although he was 2nd to MJ, Scottie had "it." In my opinion, sans injuries, Tracy became the better all around player and justified my assessment.

When a player has "it", they possess that special talent that allows them to stand out on the court and make unbelievable plays, although they still have much to learn about the game. I haven't seen that in Marvin, during his formative years, the way I saw it in Josh. It it extends beyond dunks; it's an athletic arrogance a player possesses as Jim Mora Jr. used to say.

As a kid, you always bumped into one or two players who had "it". Other players could shoot better. Some had better handles. But these guys always got picked to be on somebody's team and always seemed to dazzle and make plays. People gravitated to some portion of their game.

Josh Smith has "it", but from what I've seen of Marvin, I don't believe he has does. I love that he's going to the line more. He's one of the better players on the team at doing that. But sometimes the refs are going to swallow their whistles. When that happens, how will you compensate for the lost of FT attempts? He doesn't finish well and I saw that he still gets blocked a ton, when I went to the scrimmage. Josh, on the other hand, will block shots if his scoring is down, rebound when his blocks are down and will score now if the rebounds aren't there.

I'm not trying to pick on Marvin. However, being the 2nd pick in a draft usually means that scouts thought you had "it" and justified the potential of your "it" with the position you were drafted at. Smith was drafted in the middle of the round and is showing people that he should have been picked early than guys like Livingston and his own teammate Childress.

Our Hawks team (Smith vs. Williams for instance) is a perfect example of how the intangibles you bring to the table can outweigh shooting form and the ability to shoot from behind the arc. I believe the Hawks better sign Josh soon. Otherwise, other teams will notice his "it" factor and drive up his price. However, in Marvin's case, I don't see "it". I know he's young. I know he's still learning the game. I know this season hasn't started yet. I believe he'll have a long NBA career. But my gut tells me, he just doesn't have "it". I hope I'm wrong for the Hawks sake.

[DJlaysitup]

The thing I enjoy most about JS is when he screws up on the offensive side of the court he comes down on the defensive side with a vengence. Gets p!ssed and blocks everything

[Diesel]

I hate to disagree with you... But I do.

I think the difference that is obvious to everyone is this:

1. Josh Smith makes a difference when he is on the court. Marvin doesn't.

When Josh is on the court, regardless of what team is out there, he's going to do something to try to make a difference. While Marvin is indifferent most of the time.

2. Josh smith's game is evolving while Marvin's is not.

Josh is adding pieces to his game. A turn around, ball handling, three point shooting, better passing. He's actually growing right before our eyes. Marvin's game is at a standstill. Sure he has a pretty shot, but he don't have anything to go with it. Fans realize that any old Sf could have done the same thing.

This part is Major:

3. Josh Smith has passion, Marvin seems to lack it

The thing that people notice about Josh most of all is that he hates to lose. You have to love that trait in players. A player who wants to win above all will work harder. That may be your "it" but it's really just passion. There are no passionless champions. Even Duncan shows passion!

[thesheedera]

Thanks for the refreshing new perspective!

As they won't be playing against each other any time soon, I'm not sure why comparing them one vs. the other makes much of a difference. IF you're right about Marvin, he'll likely weed himself out of the rotation and NBA soon enough.

[Dexmethylphenidate]

How's the guy stiff if he can dunk and block?

[khaos7]

I compared Marvin to Josh, specifically, because they both entered the league around the same age, neither had much collegiate experience (in Josh's case none), and both are looked upon as the future of the team. All things equal, I looked at Marvin and I've been trying to figure out what's missing in his game. People debate about it back and forth on the blog and elsewhere. I've just determined (and I hope that I'm wrong), that maybe he doesn't have that special intangible piece to his game that will make him what we all want him to be. This isn't a "boy we should have picked Paul/Deron" post. Rather, it's a "maybe he's not as special as we hoped he'll be" type deal. I used Josh for an example, because he's a guy that some people (Jay Bilas) said didn't have "it". But, he's proving him and others wrong. Chad Ford declared to the entire world that Marvin had "it" and more. Lo and behold, Josh and Marvin are two examples of how pundits have to look beyond pre-draft workouts to see if a player is special.

[khaos7]

I said he "was" stiff. Past tense. In his first season, just my observation, he looked stiff in terms of getting into the flow of the game. Standing around. Getting blown past on defensive assignments. Now his still developing game is becoming more fluid. I know he was just a rookie with a learning curve. But there was no guarantee that he would develop into what he is now. He very easily could have become a D-leaguer.

[AHF]

It was obvious from his rookie season that Josh Smith had "it." I also haven't seen "it" from Marvin yet. "It" in my mind means the ability to impose your will on a game.

[Duff_Man]

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How's the guy stiff if he can dunk and block?

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Manute? Eaton? Laimbeer?

[AHF]

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How's the guy stiff if he can dunk and block?

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Manute? Easton? Laimbeer?

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Deke!

[DrReality]

I agree with the passion part, but different players show it in different ways. Smoove is tougher than Marv, one area he needs to bone up.

I propose we put D on bashing Marvin restriction. He can only do it three times a week.

[BossTweed]

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3. Josh Smith has passion, Marvin seems to lack it

The thing that people notice about Josh most of all is that he hates to lose. You have to love that trait in players. A player who wants to win above all will work harder. That may be your "it" but it's really just passion. There are no passionless champions. Even Duncan shows passion!

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Took the words right out of my mouth Diesel.

[TheDude]

well i think that Marvin has had some IT plays but just not as many as josh...marvin's shot over the backboard at the buzzer at the end of the first half in a game last year was phenomenal, as was his dunk over camby....he just hasnt had near the amount of josh

i think the main thing when it comes to looking for something from a guy, regarding an IT type factor, is having some games where they just go off. marvin has scored nicely in some games, but none where he was just going off..

i still think he'll be nice by mid-season but so far that's my opinion.

[thesheedera]

I'll grant you this, he doesn't consistently play with the fire that he consistently played with as a freshman in college.

My opinion is that has to do with comfort level, and that he was more ready for college ball as a freshman than he was for NBA ball as a rookie and as a second year player. If I'm right about that, then consistent intensity will creep back in as he is less overwhelmed.

I saw a more active, focused and aggressive player as last season came to a close. I expect to see that trend continue.

It HAS been frustrating though, I'll grant you that. I expected a 8+ rebounding effort from the beginning after watching the way he played at UNC. The dirty work, the extra effort, and the passion were the least of my concerns about him. Right now they're my only concerns about him.

[drzachary]

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I'll grant you this, he doesn't consistently play with the fire that he consistently played with as a freshman in college.

My opinion is that has to do with comfort level, and that he was more ready for college ball as a freshman than he was for NBA ball as a rookie and as a second year player. If I'm right about that, then consistent intensity will creep back in as he is less overwhelmed.

I saw a more active, focused and aggressive player as last season came to a close. I expect to see that trend continue.

It HAS been frustrating though, I'll grant you that. I expected a 8+ rebounding effort from the beginning after watching the way he played at UNC. The dirty work, the extra effort, and the passion were the least of my concerns about him. Right now they're my only concerns about him.

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I'm treating you as the resident Marvin expert here. What you're saying, in a nutshell, is that Marvin had It but then lost It?

[frosgrim]

So for everyone who doesn't get what IT is, the this might

[thesheedera]

I don't know if you can "lose" "it" or not. Even among guys who have "it", some have more of it than others, and they seem to have it on different levels at different times.

Just another random example, as a senior in college I would say that Acie Law had as much of "it" as anyone else. He didn't have it as a freshman or sophomore, and he may not have it again until he's gotten use dto the NBA. Does that mean he's lost it? I don't know.

Does Joe Johnson have "it". I would say he doesn't have as much as Kobe, but he has enough to be a star. Did he have it his first two years in the league? If he did I don't think Boston would have let him go.

His "it" seems to have grown as he's matured as a man and a player.

Kevin Durant had more of "it" than anyone else I can recall on a college level (Jason Williams is the only guy that immediately comes to mind who had a similar amount of it as a very young college player). I didn't expect that from him after following his high school career and recruitment. I don't expect him to immediately have it as a rookie, but I think he'll have it sooner than Marvin without a doubt.

I didn't think Wade would have it so quickly, but he does.

Some guys have it right away, some need some time, some ebb and flow.

I gues sthe best way to describe my feeling about Marvin is that my expectations of have changed since draft day due to way he's played. I no longer think he has any chance of being one of the top 10 players in the NBA at any given time. I no longer think he has a chance at "greatness". I still believe he will be among the top 25 and that he will be an All Star more than once. I would describe myself as disappointed so far but still very excited and optomistic.

This all reminds me of Grampa Simpson.

"I used to be with it, but then they changed what 'it' was. Now, what I'm with isn't 'it', and what's 'it' seems weird and scary to me."

[Zone034life]

You bring up a point that I often think to myself as well. What happened to the firey freshman from North Carolina? Who hit shots at the end of the biggest college basketball or maybe rivalry period to win the game. It is one of the things that confuses me the most about the kid. How can you have passion for the game and it just goes away. I'm starting to think he just fed off of the upper classmen like Felton and May. Maybe he just wanted to impress them, roy williams and every tar heel fan. Does he not have that same desire to do it for his current teammates, Woody and the Hawks fans? Come to think of it if he did do it for everyone else and not himself I can see why he could struggle as a pro. Marvin set the bar high in his one year, even to the point experts called him a can't miss prospect. Now we as Hawks fans have the right to want to start seeing some consistent returns on the franchises investment.

I believe Acie Law has "it" as well. This season the team will have Josh Smiths passion, Horfords toughness, Laws leadership, JJ's all star calibur game and J chillz consistency. Now the team needs the rest of the bunch to find what they will bring to the table.

[thesheedera]

If you believe those former UNC players and Roy Williams, Marvin was THE ONE who instilled the fire and passion into that team. That's why I have a hard time thinking it's gone forever.

They credited Marvin with bringing an edge to practice that wasn't there before, and most importantly it helped light a fire under May's ass. His work against May day in and day out helped May shed the soft lable, and by the end of the season May was playing like a complete beast.

Marvin was never physically outmatched until he was a rookie. I think the reality of playing with the big boys had a bigger effect on Marvin than he expected.

I hope his increased physical maturity will help bring back that firey kid who wore blue and white back then.

[khaos7]

I certainly hope you're right. Perhaps he will prove me wrong. I just don't see that special intangible we call "it" in his game.