Marc Stein Espn NBA Chat

[TexasPete]

True, but he's a knucklehead more off the court than on. He is actually the polar opposite of Arenas on the court, he did all the dirty work. And he did it better than almost anyone. He didn't care about stats on the offensive end, he just wanted to win.

His rebounding numbers were incredible and he defended with all he had on every possession.

If I wanted to have a beer with a decent guy I'd pick Arenas. If I wanted to win a championship and desired a player who would give me all of the gritty intangibles that lead to titles...it's Rodman all day.

Gil just hasn't figured out the correlation between defense and winning. Sone guys are about rings, others want the stats. Arenas will never win a title because he doesn't know what goes into winning one.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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You realize you just typed that huge essay to show how bad Gilbert's BBIQ is and how bad his shot selection is yet he is still a more efficient scorer than Joe WHILE taking tougher shots. There is no way Joe is as good as Gilbert.

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Gilbert takes tougher shots because he is a chucker . . plain and simple. He doesn't even try to get his points within the flow of the offense. And because he's the PG, he can dang near shoot the ball anytime he wants.

Gilbert is almsot a master of getting to the hole. He can dang near do it as well as D-Wade. That's the big difference between JJ and Gilbert socring-wise. Gilbert can get to the hole almost anytime he wants, and get fouled in the process. JJ gets his points by being an efficient shooter.

But this is then where you have to factor in Gilbert's BBIQ as a player. His BBIQ almost eliminates the points he gets from the FT line, because he's liable to miss 15 - 20 shots in a game. And most of his misses are via long jumpshots, which turn into long rebounds that can be more easier to retrive by the other team.

And those misses give the opponent more scoring opportunities on the other end. That's why when Gilbert is off, but still gunning and getting his points, he's not helping his team at all. He's making his efficiency numbers look good though, even though the team is losing.

If he's hot, everything is cool. If not . . the Wiz almost always lose. There is almost no in-between with Gilbert. He's either on, or off.

So I guess it's what type of player you prefer. Do you prefer a player that can get you 30 points a night, regardless of how he's shooting? Or do you prefer a player that can get you 25 points a night, and have the comfort of knowing that he's not going to shoot you out of a game on most nights?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Seriously, if he read this thread, he'd go out of his way to drop 40 on us every game this season. And he'd probably do it too. The dude is crazy.

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You mean like this game, in which Arenas scored 37 and Kobe scored 39 . . but the Wiz still lost by 16 points?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=270203027

I'll take games like this from Gilbert any day of the week.

[TroyMcClure]

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True, but he's a knucklehead more off the court than on. He is actually the polar opposite of Arenas on the court, he did all the dirty work. And he did it better than almost anyone. He didn't care about stats on the offensive end, he just wanted to win.

His rebounding numbers were incredible and he defended with all he had on every possession.

If I wanted to have a beer with a decent guy I'd pick Arenas. If I wanted to win a championship and desired a player who would give me all of the gritty intangibles that lead to titles...it's Rodman all day.

Gil just hasn't figured out the correlation between defense and winning. Sone guys are about rings, others want the stats. Arenas will never win a title because he doesn't know what goes into winning one.

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Seconded. Except I'd choose to have that beer with The Worm any day. He seems like a real decent guy. Quite humble, too.

[TexasPete]

I'd probably rather have a beer with the worm as well...

As long as he wasn't in a dress.

[TroyMcClure]

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There's not a single GM in the league that would take Joe over Arenas.

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Wrong. There is no way in hell that Utah would choose him over Joe. I don't think San antonio or Miami would either. Or the Cavs. No team with Championship desires would take Arenas over Joe.

[Plainview1981]

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There's not a single GM in the league that would take Joe over Arenas.

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Wrong. There is no way in hell that Utah would choose him over Joe. I don't think San antonio or Miami would either. Or the Cavs. No team with Championship desires would take Arenas over Joe.

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You keep forgetting that Gilbert has lead Washington to the playoffs and Joe hasn't led the Hawks to squat. Gilbert has proven he can win and get into the playoffs as a number one guy and JJ has failed to prove he can do the samething.

[Plainview1981]

If I remember correctly, we went through sort of the same kind of arguments about JT/Baron Davis some years ago. You want to talk about shooting, but you can also look at FT's and the fact that Gilbert almost doubles JJ in ft attempts.

The top notch offensive players/1st options often get to the ft line alot. Even Michael Redd almost averages 2 more FT's per game than JJ. That means when JJ's jumpshot is off, he can't score.

[TexasPete]

Gilbert has had a much better supporting cast than Joe. That isn't even debatable.

Gil is a chucker who plays no defense. JJ may not have better physical tools and can't create offense like Arenas, but so what? Gilbert's style is not conducive to winning.

And he has raisins in the sack when big games are on the line. Why don't you attend and game and watch Arenas play defense before you start spouting how "great" he is?

[Plainview1981]

JJ is a better support player and Gilbert is a better number one guy. It's hard to lead a team as a number one guy with pretty much a jumpshot being your only tool on offense.

JJ doesn't have the post game of a Steve Smith or the breakdown ability of a Dwayne Wade to go along with his jumpshot. That's the biggest weakness in JJ's game and it's a big weakness when you're talking about first options.

Washington was garbage before Gilbert got there and Bulter wasn't all that great before he got to Washington either. In fact, I was starting to wonder if Bulter was going to turn into a journeyman before his breakout year last year.

Tell me, what number one guy is leading his team to the playoffs while being unable to get to the fouline?

[TexasPete]

You don't understand the dynamics of basketball very well. You like the better one on one player but you ignore how the chucking PG hurts the offense. Further, you ignore how Arenas deplorable defense hurts his team.

You get fooled by the one on one stuff. I will grant you that Gil has better overall scoring tools. I also want him as far away from the Hawks as possible because Gil lacks what it takes to win titles.

JJ fits more into a team philosophy and also plays hard on both ends.

If you believe that the better scorer is the better player when it comes to winning then your correct in saying Arenas is the better player. If defense and how one fits into a team concept is important...I'll go with JJ. JJ is good enough and he doesn't bring mental baggage.

[Plainview1981]

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You don't understand the dynamics of basketball very well. You like the better one on one player but you ignore how the chucking PG hurts the offense. Further, you ignore how Arenas deplorable defense hurts his team.

You get fooled by the one on one stuff. I will grant you that Gil has better overall scoring tools. I also want him as far away from the Hawks as possible because Gil lacks what it takes to win titles.

JJ fits more into a team philosophy and also plays hard on both ends.

If you believe that the better scorer is the better player when it comes to winning then your correct in saying Arenas is the better player. If defense and how one fits into a team concept is important...I'll go with JJ. JJ is good enough and he doesn't bring mental baggage.

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You don't seem to get it. Show me when was the last time a team accomplished anything with a number one option with such limited skills. As a scorer, JJ is pretty much a one trick pony. It's a very good trick, but it will only carry the team so far.

I'm saying you need a guy with more offensive skills to be your lead man if you want to win. A number one guy should have some selfish to his game.

That's why guys like Kobe, Wade, Shaq, Iverson, MJ have played in finals or won championships and guys like Steve Nash and KG don't haven't even got the big game.

JJ is a number 2 guy on a really good team. That's just the way it is.

[TroyMcClure]

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you need a guy with more offensive skills to be your lead man if you want to win. A number one guy should have some selfish to his game.

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Not exactly true. Detroit has proven you can win it all with a team dynamic.

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JJ is a number 2 guy on a really good team. That's just the way it is.

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Unfortunately, this may be true. He may turn the corner as a leader this year. He's young. We'll see.

[Plainview1981]

{quote]Not exactly true. Detroit has proven you can win it all with a team dynamic.

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Exceptions don't change the rule. I surely wouldn't be looking to go that route to get to the titles. The odds are very much against you.

[TexasPete]

We don't even NEED a number one option. The truth is, and the NBA lost this awhile ago, is that basketball is a team game. Hello???

Why does the US fail to win gold medals? Because they don't have a solid "number 1" option? Or, because our system of one on one clear outs is not the way teams maximize their potential?

This thinking of we have to have a great superstar is stupid. What I like about the potential of this current team is that all 5 guys can score. If they work together AS A UNIT they can do extremely well. This number 1, number 2 option thing doesn't get to the heart of what Basketball is all about. Argentina, Spain, and Greece play together. There is no dominant option. We live in an era where chuckers like Kobe, Melo, Iverson, and Arenas are all glorified at the expense of their teams. How did the "decimated" Philly team do last year when AI left? Uh, a lot better. Hotlanta, you don't understand the game at it's core so I don't believe you'll ever see Arenas in his proper light...as a one dimensional chucker who doesn't defend.

Guys like Arenas dont win titles. You get that yet?

[Plainview1981]

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Why does the US fail to win gold medals? Because they don't have a solid "number 1" option? Or, because our system of one on one clear outs is not the way teams maximize their potential?

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The rules in stuff in those games are different.

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This number 1, number 2 option thing doesn't get to the heart of what Basketball is all about. Argentina, Spain, and Greece play together.

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This isn't FIBA. This the NBA.

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Guys like Arenas dont win titles. You get that yet?

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Number one guys that can only shoot jumpshots don't win titles. You get that yet? Even with the Pistons, Billups was the clutch scorer and he could postup aswell as shoot the jumpshot.

You can ignore the way things are in an effort to buildup a 2nd tier SG and the Hawks all you want. I've been here for years, I've read it all before.

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hat I like about the potential of this current team is that all 5 guys can score.

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All 5 guys can score, but the team averaged only 93PPG last year and there is no reason to believe they'll score more this year. They don't have guys that can create their own shot, and regardless of what you say, you do need guys that can create their own shot to win.

Also, the Hawks only have 5 guys that can score if they're able to run.

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How did the "decimated" Philly team do last year when AI left? Uh, a lot better.

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We shall see just how good Philly is this year. I've watched this Hawks team play above .500 for part of the season. That's all Philly did. It means nothing.

[AtLaS]

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Gilbert Arenas is a knucklehead. And knuckleheads don't win NBA titles. Period.

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Kobe? Sheed? BTW what has Gilbert done off the court to be a "knucklehead"?? Yes, he says all kinds of crazy things bu t he gets along great with his teammates and doesn't have problems with the law. He's basically like Chad Johnson, do you think Chad is a cancer as well?

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His defense is so bad it's embarrassing. Many times when I'm in the arena I watch Arenas on defense and it is just abyssmal. He doesn't really try.

People always forget about defense on this site when they discuss players.

Gilbert will NEVER play for a serious contender because the things that go into serious winning, he refuses to do.

He can put the ball in the hole, great. He shoots enough, thats for damn sure. He has his Adidas spots for all of the masses who think that chuckers deserve to sell shoes.

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Just so we are on the same page, I would like to see your top 10.

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I'll never forget when Lebron whispered in Arenas ear right before those two HUGE free throws in the playoffs...he told Gil that he was gonna CHOKE. He knew Gilbert. What did Gil do? He CHOKED.

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That's a horrible example because tons of star players miss clutch free throws ALL the time. The funny thing is that LEBRON does it more than anyone.