Can Hawksquawkers be trusted as EYEWITNESSES?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

NO. At least 75% of you can't be trusted as a credible eyewitness.

Not when you see some of the comments made about how the Pistons got back into the game. Before I blow the innacuracies about that stretch right out the water with FACTS, I must commend the Hawks on playing a gritty, gutty game last night. Like most of you, I thought the Hawks might be in for a long night when they fell behind by 10. But Woody and the players didn't panic, and really put on one of the best defensive efforts I've seen out of the Hawks in a long time.

Remember guys, this is the same Pistons team that went to the "supposed" up and coming team in the East, Orlando, and literally blew them out of the water . . without Hamilton in the lineup.

Take your hat off to the Pistons, who buckled down defensively, and made life a living hell for us in that 4th quarter.

But back to the topic at hand.

I don't like calling out people personally, but BusBoy especially, and some of the other normal "Woody haters", did this board a total disservice last night, with their railings on Woody after the game. They put total blame on Woody for the Pistons coming back into the game. So let's explore what REALLY happened during that stretch.

First off, the stretch the Pistons got back into the game, was actually only a 3 minute stretch in the 4th quarter, not some 6 - 7 minute one. But that's just a trivial sidebar to what really caused the Hawks mini-meltdown last night.

FACT #1: The Hawks held their own against the Pistons starters for the rest of the 3rd quarter, even after JJ went to the bench.

At the 2:02 mark of the 3rd quarter, the Hawks had a 66 - 60 lead, with Shelden Williams at the FT line after a great feed from Acie Law led to him being fouled going for a lay-up. Between the 1st and 2nd FT, Joe Johnson goes out of the game, replaced by Marvin Williams. Hawks lead 67 - 60 after Shelden hits 1 of 2 FTs.

Lineup for both teams at this point: Starters are in bold

Hawks: Law, Chill, Marvin, Smoove, Shelden

Pistons: Murray, Billups, Prince, Maxiell, Wallace

The only points scored the rest of the quarter, was via Sheed fouling Shelden, after Smoove found him on a good pass along the baseline. So that group actually held their own against 3 of the Pistons starters. Hawks lead 69 - 60 after 3.

FACT #2: At NO TIME during this stretch, was JJ, Smoove, and Horford ALL out of the game at the same time.

Start of the 4th quarter lineup:

Hawks: Law, Chill, Marvin, Smoove, Shelden

Pistons: Murray, Hamilton, Hayes, Maxiell, McDyess

This pretty much means that Smoove was in the game as the 4th quarter started. And remember, we're up 9 at this point. And when Horford came in, he came in for Smoove at the 10:17 mark. By this time, Maxiell is making his 2nd FT, to cut the lead to 71 - 67.

FACT #3: The rookies, Horford and especially Law, made mistake after mistake during this stretch, to get the Pistons back in the game

Horford had 2 turnovers in this stretch. One happened in the 3rd quarter, in which Horford had received the ball off the backboard from a deflected pass by Smoove. He then tried to quickly outlet the pass to Marvin, but it was way too far out in front of him.

His 2nd turnover came when the Hawks were only up by 4, almost immeadiately after he came back into the game. It was a very lazy pass to Chill, in which Hamilton stole and was fouled by Childress.

As much as I love Acie Law, he was flat out HORRIBLE during this stretch. Acie had 2 of his 5 turnovers during this stretch, and probably should've had 3 turnovers. In consecutive plays in the 4th quarter, Acie

- tried to drive too fast to the hole, tripping over Hamilton's feet. Luckily for us, the called the foul on Rip.

- The very next play, Acie tries to throw the ball to Chill, but the pass was behind him and it goes out of bounds. Chill says that it was his fault for the turnover, but Acie's pass was behind him.

- The very next play, Acie fouls Murray going to the hole. It was at this time that Woody calls Acie over to him, and literally tells him to SETTLE DOWN. Even after this point, the Hawks are still up by 5, and if they execute just one time on the other end, they can buy JJ some more time on the bench.

Acie's last turnover, was the turnover that got him out the game. It was his hesitatin drive, then slip, that cause him to lose the ball. Murray then converts the lay-up on the other end. Because of this, Woody calls a timeout, and goes to Lue, to get Acie out of the game. Hawks are now only up by 2, 71- 69.

FACT #4: NOT A SINGLE DETROIT STARTER SCORED A POINT DURING THIS STRETCH!!

It was ALL Jason Maxiell ( 5 points and 2 offensive rebounds ) and Flip Murray ( 4 points ).

FACT #5: JJ re-entered the game at the 10:02 mark, which means that he was only out for exactly 4 MINUTES.

This also means that the Hawks still have trouble surviving without JJ on the floor. Hell, you can make an argument that they can't even FUNCTION, without JJ on the floor. And some of you want his minutes cut? Well, someone else MUST STEP UP, in order for that to happen.

FACT #6: Neither Smoove nor Marvin scored during this stretch

As a matter of fact, I think Marvin LITERALLY touched the ball just 2 times during that stretch. Smoove's only attempt was directly from an offensive rebound off of Shelden's missed FT back in the 3rd quarter, right when JJ went out of the game.

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As for Lue staying in the game during the 4th quarter, people can only make a slight argument for that. Forget about Woody, would ANY COACH stick with a rookie PG, after he had made 4 consecutive mistakes in a little over a minute span?

If Woody didn't go to Lue, his only options were to either put Salim in the game, and go with a JJ - Salim backcourt, or play a JJ - Chill backcourt, with Marvin, Smoove, and Horford in.

If you go the JJ - Chill option, you either have to trust that Chill can handle the pressure at the point, or that JJ at the point can find the open man and have that man knock down a shot . . something that only Marvin was doing at that time. It would've helped on the defensive end, because Hayes or Billups wouldn't have been able to post up Chill, like they were doing Lue.

If you go with the Salim option, you literally would have to tell him to shoot the ball as soon as he got it, becuase outside of JJ, he's the best on the team in creating a shot. Of course, on the other end, you still have the matchup problem because Detroit would've immeadiately posted up Salim, just like they did Lue.

Woody played the early stretch in the 4th quarter EXACTLY how he should've played it. We needed JJ to rest as much as he could, so that he'd be fresh at the end of the game. The Pistons got away with doing that, because Maxiell, Hayes, and Murray allowed Prince, Billups, and Wallace to rest a full 6 minutes in that quarter, while Prince rested almost 8 minutes.

Remember what I told you Hawksquawkers . . . RECORD ALL OF THESE GAMES!!

It'll keep you from making ridiculous statements about what went on.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Thanks for setting the record straight.

But with that said, Horford and Smoove were not on the floor at the same time. SO maybe that's why I felt like they were both out.

I knew we were getting destroyed down low.

In reality, what hurt us was the ball simply not bouncing our way.

That double bounce Sheed got vs the shot Lue took that went off the rim pretty much sums it up.

I just hope we can recover from that devastating loss.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

No problem Bus. Like I said, I don't like calling people out like that. But it seems as if people just flat out hate on Woody, without actually seeing what's going on. Sometimes, like in a movie, you have to watch it 2 - 3 times, to actually see why he's doing what he's doing.

Personally, I would've loved to see him put in Salim to start the 4th quarter, and tell him to see if he can bust the game wide open. But that's just me. Salim might have actually got them back in the game quicker, but who knows?

[Traceman]

Great post! I almost posted something similar earlier. I love Acie but I too understand why Woody went with T Lue down the stretch. I just wish that Woody would have either went to the immediate double on Billups (or Hayes) when he posted up or that he had gone with Chillz at PG. Both strategies had some risk but I don't think either strategy was any riskier than Leaving T Lue one on one in the post with a guy who was 4 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier.

[gsuteke]

*crickets*

[Plainview1981]

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Great post! I almost posted something similar earlier. I love Acie but I too understand why Woody went with T Lue down the stretch. I just wish that Woody would have either went to the immediate double on Billups (or Hayes) when he posted up or that he had gone with Chillz at PG. Both strategies had some risk but I don't think either strategy was any riskier than Leaving T Lue one on one in the post with a guy who was 4 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier.

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I think it's easy to see why Lue was in toward the end. Lue has made alot of 4th period plays for this team since he has been here.

[Plainview1981]

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No problem Bus. Like I said, I don't like calling people out like that. But it seems as if people just flat out hate on Woody, without actually seeing what's going on. Sometimes, like in a movie, you have to watch it 2 - 3 times, to actually see why he's doing what he's doing.

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It's always the coach or the refs fault.

[yardbird]

Great Post! I still don't understand why Marvin doesn't get the ball more in a position to score when he's playing so well. It would really open things up for Joe.

[jerrywest]

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Great Post! I still don't understand why Marvin doesn't get the ball more in a position to score when he's playing so well. It would really open things up for Joe.

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Ditto. Even when JJ is sitting, MW still doesn't get the ball. He is on "ignore user" much of the time, which I just started using on a certain poster.

[DJlaysitup]

T-Lue just doesn't hit shots on the road. Simple as that.

[exodus]

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As a matter of fact, I think Marvin LITERALLY touched the ball just 2 times during that stretch.

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That is a big problem to me. Smart teams recognize who has the hot hand and get them the ball. There is no reason Marvin shouldn't have gotten more touches at the end.

He had 22 pts on 12 shot attempts.

[bfwolf]

I think it's faulty logic to say that Woody has to pull Law when he makes a few mistakes in a short time span. It suggests that if a player makes 4 mistakes at the beginning of a game, and then plays 20 minutes of error free basketball, he is less willing to make a mistake in the following 10 minutes than a player who plays 20 minutes of error free basketball and then makes 4 mistakes. I don't believe this is true at all. If Acie Law turns the ball over a few times in a short period of time, that is just a coincidence, not some sort of trend that you can use to extrapolate how he'll play the next 10 minutes of the ball game. He's a rookie and will make mistakes, but every thing about him suggests that he's a gamer who is mentally tough and is not going to be rattled when he makes a few errors. The team is better with him in the game than Lue and Woody is going to have to learn to turn the team over to Acie. Lue doesn't commit many turnovers because he rarely tries to pass the ball in a way that sets up his teammates for easy shots...that low turnover rate does not make him a better player than Acie who is actively getting his teammates involved with his penetration and dishing.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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I think it's faulty logic to say that Woody has to pull Law when he makes a few mistakes in a short time span. It suggests that if a player makes 4 mistakes at the beginning of a game, and then plays 20 minutes of error free basketball, he is less willing to make a mistake in the following 10 minutes than a player who plays 20 minutes of error free basketball and then makes 4 mistakes. I don't believe this is true at all. If Acie Law turns the ball over a few times in a short period of time, that is just a coincidence, not some sort of trend that you can use to extrapolate how he'll play the next 10 minutes of the ball game. He's a rookie and will make mistakes, but every thing about him suggests that he's a gamer who is mentally tough and is not going to be rattled when he makes a few errors. The team is better with him in the game than Lue and Woody is going to have to learn to turn the team over to Acie. Lue doesn't commit many turnovers because he rarely tries to pass the ball in a way that sets up his teammates for easy shots...that low turnover rate does not make him a better player than Acie who is actively getting his teammates involved with his penetration and dishing.

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BDawg, it's hard to make a case for Acie staying in that game, when the Pistons scored 4 points directly off of his miscues in that short of a timespan. I think we ran two legitimate offensive plays in the 4 minutes that JJ was out. Detroit turned up the defense on us, and they started to run people out at Acie, which made him play a little bit faster than he should've.

And it's one thing if this happens in the 1st or 2nd quarter. You could justify leaving him in during that time. But this was happening in the 4th quarter. There's no way any coach would've let their rookie PG stay out there, when you have a proven vet like Lue on the bench. Lue might not run the offense as well as Acie, but Woody trusts that he'll at least not turn the ball over trying to set up the offense.

The kid just had a bad stretch, that's all. But you don't leave him out there, when you can easily go to a vet. Not in that situation, and not on the road.

[AtLaS]

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I think it's faulty logic to say that Woody has to pull Law when he makes a few mistakes in a short time span.

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I see what you're saying, but I disagree with this. The Pistons began pressuring Law like CRAZY and he was having a tough time with it, you could tell he was out of control and really didn't know what to do. I don't disagree with Woody putting Lue in at that time because Law was overwhelmed with pressure and wasn't ready for it at that time. Plus the crowd was REALLY getting into it.

However, after Lue came back in and sucked it up, he should've put Law back in after he settled down.

[Diesel]

You've built up a case to defend Woody's taking out Acie in in the fourth... However,

When you look at the alternative:

We put Lue in.

All game long, Lue was our flow buster. With Lue in the game, ball movement stopped. The one thing that Acie did was that he would immediate pass the ball when he got in the half court. Lue on the other hand would hold the ball. Sure Acie committed more turnovers, but our offense thrives off of ball movement. Watch the body language of our players (if you want to be a witness)... When Lue comes in the game, look for our players to stop working and everybody stand still and watch Lue. When Acie is in the game, everybody is working to get a spot and moving without the ball. It's like Jekyl and Hyde. Also, I think Lue has it in his mind that he's only going to pass to certain players. You can't have that mentality as a PG. However, watch Lue again... He passes to JJ and Shelden and Smoove (when there's 6 seconds on the clock).

Be an eyewitness!

[jerrywest]

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The Pistons began pressuring Law like CRAZY and he was having a tough time with it, you could tell he was out of control and really didn't know what to do.

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Do you think Law has problem with pressue?

Some people compared Acie with Mark Jackson. I disagree. I'd say Mark Jackson was a much better passer until Acie shows me season long greatness in that department. Acie is much faster, less show-off, better shooter with more range, more physical & athletic and more clutch than Jackson though. Different types of players.

I remember, the Knicks ended up trading Mark Jackson in his prime because he couldn't handle the full court pressure of Chicago Bulls in the playoffs. Big PGs often have that problem. Craig harassed Deron Williams in the open court last year and totally embarrassed him.

Those of you who have followed Law closely in the college, do you think Acie has weakness against full court pressure?

[coachx]

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I think it's faulty logic to say that Woody has to pull Law when he makes a few mistakes in a short time span. It suggests that if a player makes 4 mistakes at the beginning of a game, and then plays 20 minutes of error free basketball, he is less willing to make a mistake in the following 10 minutes than a player who plays 20 minutes of error free basketball and then makes 4 mistakes. I don't believe this is true at all. If Acie Law turns the ball over a few times in a short period of time, that is just a coincidence, not some sort of trend that you can use to extrapolate how he'll play the next 10 minutes of the ball game. He's a rookie and will make mistakes, but every thing about him suggests that he's a gamer who is mentally tough and is not going to be rattled when he makes a few errors. The team is better with him in the game than Lue and Woody is going to have to learn to turn the team over to Acie. Lue doesn't commit many turnovers because he rarely tries to pass the ball in a way that sets up his teammates for easy shots...that low turnover rate does not make him a better player than Acie who is actively getting his teammates involved with his penetration and dishing.

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I agree completely.

I bashed Lue yesterday but at the same time I

was honest about Law. Three of his five turnovers were bad turnovers. His last turnover should have got him taken out of the game.

I would have put Law back in after a couple of minutes. Especially seeing how bad his replacement, Lue, was playing defensively vs. Billups and the way Lue butchered any resemblance of an offensive flow.

Eventually Law did come back in but only for defense on Billups, not to run the offense.

I would rather live through the growing pains of watching Law b/c he will actually improve. Lue is the same song and dance every time. I don't want to see the "Lue Movie" anymore in crunch time. Have never been a fan of his style of basketball.

[TroyMcClure]

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I think it's faulty logic to say that Woody has to pull Law when he makes a few mistakes in a short time span. It suggests that if a player makes 4 mistakes at the beginning of a game, and then plays 20 minutes of error free basketball, he is less willing to make a mistake in the following 10 minutes than a player who plays 20 minutes of error free basketball and then makes 4 mistakes. I don't believe this is true at all. If Acie Law turns the ball over a few times in a short period of time, that is just a coincidence, not some sort of trend that you can use to extrapolate how he'll play the next 10 minutes of the ball game. He's a rookie and will make mistakes, but every thing about him suggests that he's a gamer who is mentally tough and is not going to be rattled when he makes a few errors. The team is better with him in the game than Lue and Woody is going to have to learn to turn the team over to Acie. Lue doesn't commit many turnovers because he rarely tries to pass the ball in a way that sets up his teammates for easy shots...that low turnover rate does not make him a better player than Acie who is actively getting his teammates involved with his penetration and dishing.

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I agree completely.

I bashed Lue yesterday but at the same time I

was honest about Law. Three of his five turnovers were bad turnovers. His last turnover should have got him taken out of the game.

I would have put Law back in after a couple of minutes. Especially seeing how bad his replacement, Lue, was playing defensively vs. Billups and the way Lue butchered any resemblance of an offensive flow.

Eventually Law did come back in but only for defense on Billups, not to run the offense.

I would rather live through the growing pains of watching Law b/c he will actually improve. Lue is the same song and dance every time. I don't want to see the "Lue Movie" anymore in crunch time. Have never been a fan of his style of basketball.

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overreact?

coachx, we do agree here. Everything you said. bdawg and diesel are on point as well. Northside just wasted a lot of time. I watched the game. I watch virtually every game. I watched Lue slow down and pound. He has lost a step and is not creative. He's selfish, whether he realizes it or not. Everything he does sets it up so he shoots it or gets an assist. He leaves no other options. Same old song and dance from Woody and Lue. Same old result. You have to win games that are close. That's how you become winners. Not by letting Lue pound. WTF is Tyronn Lue?

[exodus]

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WTF is Tyronn Lue?

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He is our 4th string pg who has been forced into service because Speedy is hurt, Acie is a rookie with a bad wrist and AJ has sucked/been absent.

[TroyMcClure]

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WTF is Tyronn Lue?

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He is our 4th string pg who has been forced into service because Speedy is hurt, Acie is a rookie with a bad wrist and AJ has sucked/been absent.

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Are you serious? He's better than Speedy, anyway. We didn't score a basket for 6 minutes, ex. Lue also played lazy defense on the point. I'm saying we've sucked for what, 8 years now? Why watch Lue do that again? After about 4 minutes couldn't you go to Law? What if he makes a play? We might have actually, you know, scored a basket.