Horford vs. Yi

[jerrywest]

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I wanted Yi, but I really like Horford's game. I think Horf is a tremendous addition to the Hawks. Horf is one of the two best draft picks in the BK era (and the Babs era as well).

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I would agree with this statement, I just don't think he will be better than Yi will be.

Anyhow, now what do we do with another forward? As long as we stop gap fix everything, nothing really gets fixed.

Also, we still don't have a needed potential superstar or likley mismatch advantage.

You can't play small ball and conceed other mismatch advantages skill-wise.

W

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If Marvin keeps playing like this, wouldn't he completely overshadow Yi and make him redundant, both defensively and offensively? Its been speculated that Marvin is 3 years younger than Yi.

[frosgrim]

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I wanted Yi, but I really like Horford's game. I think Horf is a tremendous addition to the Hawks. Horf is one of the two best draft picks in the BK era (and the Babs era as well).

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I would agree with this statement, I just don't think he will be better than Yi will be.

Anyhow, now what do we do with another forward? As long as we stop gap fix everything, nothing really gets fixed.

Also, we still don't have a needed potential superstar or likley mismatch advantage.

You can't play small ball and conceed other mismatch advantages skill-wise.

W

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I think the Hawks do have that potential superstar in MW, but we can disagree on that one, as neither of us will change positions on it at this point in time.

In regards to small ball. Its what the drafts gave the Hawks. I am not sure what center the Hawks passed over that made sense to take that the time. Bynum was/is way too raw to include with Smith. Other than that, I don't see who we passed over in terms of a big man.

The Hawks should have made a harder push for Chandler and/or Curry though.

[coachx]

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If Marvin keeps playing like this, wouldn't he completely overshadow Yi and make him redundant, both defensively and offensively? Its been speculated that Marvin is 3 years younger than Yi.

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Of course it would and this exactly what we talked about for a month before the draft.

Are asking Walter to apply logic ?

[jerrywest]

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If Marvin keeps playing like this, wouldn't he completely overshadow Yi and make him redundant, both defensively and offensively? Its been speculated that Marvin is 3 years younger than Yi.

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Of course it would and this exactly what we talked about for a month before the draft.

Are asking Walter to apply logic ?

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Actually, before the draft there was plenty of doubt about the future of Marvin. I know its a small sample, but Marvin's improvements are mostly with his attitude, and there is no going back for him. New pathways have opened up in his game which can take him to the top echelon if he wants to.

[Sothron]

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I was wondering about you!

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Thanks. My wife and I were almost killed in a car wreck (not our fault) and the recovery is not fun. I had to have surgery to repair a torn labrum that will take months to heal back which means I can't type without pain.

[jerrywest]

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I was wondering about you!

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Thanks. My wife and I were almost killed in a car wreck (not our fault) and the recovery is not fun. I had to have surgery to repair a torn labrum that will take months to heal back which means I can't type without pain.

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Sorry to hear that. Glad you are OK.

Everytime it hurts, think about how much worse it could have been. You are a very lucky man.

[BusBoyIsBack]

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Horford is used to the american game, older, and isn't making any international transitions.

Yi was a perfect compliment to JS at the forward positions

IMO and has superstar potential. Horford has been PROVEN to be an NBA Pf. As wonderful as he is, he won't be more wonderful than Yi, he won't be a superstar or represent a mismatch advantage, and he doesn't play a position that will trump Yi's current and especially future player advantages.

W

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I think your confused compliment with redundant

Yi was a perfect compliment? You have to be kidding me. That would give us TWO perimeter oriented slashing guys down low with Smoove and Horford. How is that complimenting?

We needed a guy who preferred to play IN THE PAINT including comfort with his back to the basket.

While you're wishing upon a Yi in 3 years we shouldn't need his offensive abilities with Marvin and Acie Law emerging as well as Horford.

[Guest Walter]

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We needed a guy who preferred to play IN THE PAINT including comfort with his back to the basket.

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No. We needed an NBA CENTER who prefered to play in the paint. I never said that drafting Yi was the final piece, but Horford (and Law) may continue to make us two pieces away. Instead of being just a center away we are a center and potential superstar, likely mismatch advantage away. It certainly helps us to have more to trade from, but it doesn't solve our problems, just put a weak band-aid over the center position, one that won't ever hold up in the playoffs.

W

[gsuteke]

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I got a chance to talk with Ty at the game yesterday and he thinks Horford will be a perennial All Star in 2-3 years.

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And Yi is already equaling if not bettering him despite a MUCH greater tansition and less time to adjust. Hmm? Makes you wonder.

W

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Yi is doing a good job making open jumpers but he is not scoring inside at all. I dont recall you mentioning a perimeter shooter who doesn't drive or post as being a good compliment to Smith.

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another case of either distorting the facts or ignoring the obvious.

I would like to see both Diesel and Waldo's case for Yi being a Hawk outside of PPG and FG%. I want to see the case for Yi relative to how he would fit in with the current squad minus Horford and give us a better chance to win.

They'll have to step their game up as well. Horford isn't a Center isn't going to cut it. If you want to use that hair ball argument against Horford you better damn well not say we should have drafted Yi then if that's our big need. I keep hearing all this talk about "skill sets." We've got enough perimeter players on the team already. I guess argument #2 is going to be his skin tone. Eventually we may get back around to how he gives us a better change to win. Eventually.

I personally don't think they can do it without the melodramatics. I'm sure one of them will take me up on the challenge though. At the very least this should be entertaining.

[coachx]

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We needed a guy who preferred to play IN THE PAINT including comfort with his back to the basket.

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No. We needed an NBA CENTER who prefered to play in the paint. I never said that drafting Yi was the final piece, but Horford (and Law) may continue to make us two pieces away. Instead of being just a center away we are a center and potential superstar, likely mismatch advantage away. It certainly helps us to have more to trade from, but it doesn't solve our problems, just put a weak band-aid over the center position, one that won't ever hold up in the playoffs.

W

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And what NBA center was there to draft ? Do you have a magic lamp with a genie ? Is it that hard for you to see the logic that Horford was then next best thing. A physical 6'10'' bruiser that loves to play inside. When you all had was ZaZa and Sheldon, I'd say that is a good logical move.

S. Williams, who the Nets took around #17 is the only other center I am aware of who was cut from a defensive mold (but he is only 6'10'' himself). The 19 year the Kings got just had his 3rd knee surgery.

[Nicholasp27]

unless yi can outrebound horford, why would we want to take him again?

and we have TWO potential superstars in marvin/smoove...yi plays the same positions as those two...why would we want to have THREE 'potential superstars' in 2 positions?

horford CAN play center against playoff teams like mavs/suns/pistons/nets/celtics...wait, those are some of the top playoff teams...it's very likely we will have to face either pistons/nets/celtics in 1st round if we make playoffs this year...

he can also backup the 4 much more effectively than yi could

i wanted yi as well, but horford has proven to me that he CAN play center on most nights in the current nba environment and that he is a better player than i thought and is possibly an allstar in the making

[Guest Walter]

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And what NBA center was there to draft ? Do you have a magic lamp with a genie ? Is it that hard for you to see the logic that Horford was then next best thing. A physical 6'10'' bruiser that loves to play inside. When you all had was ZaZa and Sheldon, I'd say that is a good logical move.

S. Williams, who the Nets took around #17 is the only other center I am aware of who was cut from a defensive mold (but he is only 6'10'' himself). The 19 year the Kings got just had his 3rd knee surgery.

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Never said there was one. At some point we must be willing to accept that to get the integral pieces we have to make deals, bold moves, moves of conviction. It would seem that with all our PIECES that this offseason (or the previous one with cap space) would have provided more opportunity to finalize our team than all but 1 or 2 teams have. Oh well. Let's be ecstatic we've got 5 prospect forwards again. I always love that.

W

[gsuteke]

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I got a chance to talk with Ty at the game yesterday and he thinks Horford will be a perennial All Star in 2-3 years.

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And Yi is already equaling if not bettering him despite a MUCH greater tansition and less time to adjust. Hmm? Makes you wonder.

W

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Yi is doing a good job making open jumpers but he is not scoring inside at all. I dont recall you mentioning a perimeter shooter who doesn't drive or post as being a good compliment to Smith.

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another case of either distorting the facts or ignoring the obvious.

I would like to see both Diesel and Waldo's case for Yi being a Hawk outside of PPG and FG%. I want to see the case for Yi relative to how he would fit in with the current squad minus Horford and give us a better chance to win.

They'll have to step their game up as well. Horford isn't a Center isn't going to cut it. If you want to use that hair ball argument against Horford you better damn well not say we should have drafted Yi then if that's our big need. I keep hearing all this talk about "skill sets." We've got enough perimeter players on the team already. I guess argument #2 is going to be his skin tone. Eventually we may get back around to how he gives us a better change to win. Eventually.

I personally don't think they can do it without the melodramatics. I'm sure one of them will take me up on the challenge though. At the very least this should be entertaining.

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In typical "Drama Queen" fashion Waldo doesn't address the question

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If you want to talk about Yi atleast do it in good faith. Discuss Yi relative to how he would help out this Hawks team as constructed minus Horford. And please come up with something better than he would have offered a "Mike Vick distraction."

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At least if you want to make an ass out of yourself do it in good faith. Discuss my discussion of Yi as a "Mike Vick distraction" as it was posted...a POST SCRIPT! That deserves a good 'ol "LOL".

I also posted this but you couldn't read past your Walter love/hate...

The whole world could insist Horford is an NBA Pf but it would seem lost on many here. We didn't address our center need because we couldn't in this year's NBA draft and if Yi is already MORE productive...

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708MIL.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708ATL.HTM

...despite learning a new culture, basketball style, etc. with less time to do so, then we got punked by BK again and too many people ALWAYS fall for it like "consensus (or non-consensus in the cases of JC and SW) lemmings".

It would seem since you can't argue the facts, you debate the post-script (poorly, I might add). Nice one junior.

W

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Let's try this one more time Waldo.

I would like to see both Diesel and Waldo's case for Yi being a Hawk outside of PPG and FG%. I want to see the case for Yi relative to how he would fit in with the current squad minus Horford and give us a better chance to win.

[DJlaysitup]

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...I would like to see both Diesel and Waldo's case for Yi being a Hawk outside of PPG and FG%...

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Well............those are two pretty serious statistics in the game of basketball. Maybe the most serious as far as winning and losing goes...team with the most points wins, and FG% is key.

[Guest Walter]

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I would like to see both Diesel and Waldo's case for Yi being a Hawk outside of PPG and FG%. I want to see the case for Yi relative to how he would fit in with the current squad minus Horford and give us a better chance to win.

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First, I have ALWAYS stated our team's situation, with it lacking 2 top players able to compete with not some but ALL of the leagues' top 10 team's top 2 players, made it IMPERATIVE we attempt to address either or both of TWO needs with the 3rd overall pick :

1) the likeliest superstar prospect (added mismatch advantage, even better)

2) an NBA center

Second, I have always stated that this draft did NOT offer a credible NBA center prospect (at or near the 3rd pick).

As such, we were left with a decision. Either...

1) get one of the two things this team needed and what this draft offered and then trade for the other.

2) get neither of what this team needed in yet another NBA Pf prospect that didn't project as a superstar (and most resembled SW) and didn't have a hint of mismatch advantage within him.

We did the later. It will cost us just like every other one of BK's lottery picks have. Not as much as most of them, but like all of them it will cost us.

However, I love being asked that we NOT consider FG% and PPG (WTF?!?) for a player that is supposed to represent the next Dirk Nowitski. Dirk is NOTHING without those stat lines. Hello? Yi is making the biggest transition of any player, doing so within less time, and HE IS better than Horford now. Hello? Not consider FG% and PPG?!? What about BPG too? Might as well not consider a vastly higher ROLAND RATING! Yes, Yi is (+)1.7 to Al Horford's (-)6.0.

Yi will not likely out rebound Horford in the next 2-3 years, but guess what, per48 he will likely never outrebound SW either. Guess what? We already had SW. The ROLE-PLAYING rebounder isn't hard to come by so big [censored] deal! Yi will punk them both elsewhere offensively. Defensive transition to the NBA game is slower, BUT Yi's has been thuroughly mischaracterized here for a multitude of mysterious purposes by those who (gasp) no longer (publically) call Horford a center or want (publically) the 3rd string Memphis Pg. Given Yi's already 2 BPG in <30 MPG, he can eventually change games defensively, but if that isn't enough...

...With Yi ON THE COURT Milwaulkee allows their opponents 10.2 FEWER PPG! Guess what? Only Desmond Mason has a better ON THE COURT OPPONENT PPG average for Milwaulkee than Yi!

By contrast, teams score 1.3 MORE PPG with Horford on the court. They both start for their respective teams and play similar MPG. What's the dilly-yo?

Point being, if Yi having a 7.3 higher ROLAND RATING, a higher FG%, a higher FT%, considerably more PPG, considerably more BPG, fewer TOPG (2 to 3) all in fewer MPG, and the same number of SPG in prorated MPG, ALL with the knowledge that Yi is adjusting to the american game AND the NBA game BOTH in LESS TIME...if that doesn't convince you to see me and my point past my colon you find your head up all the time GSUteke then nothing the [censored] will!

I'd rather win an NBA title. That requires better TOP talent than we have. Horford solved neither our need for top talent or a center. Yi might have and already appears poised to, in rapid, dramatic, Perry Mason-like fasion, overturn the irresponsibly argued Hawksquawk case for Horford over Yi. It seems rather evident that if you merely want mediocrity, Horford at NBA center will do in a pinch. If you want more for this franchise, as in either case, to draft either Yi or Horford meant you still had to get an NBA center somehow else. At least with Yi you've got a potential superstar nad all-time, everyday mismatch advantage. CASE CLOSED.

W

[Lawstudent101]

Walter the reasons teams are scoring more PPG with horford on the court is because Woody isn't using our team right.

For example, when Horford was getting punked by Haywood, WOody just sat there and allowed it to happen.

Why not sub in Shelden and see if he could slow him down? Why not try to double, or make ANY KIND OF ADJUSTMENT.

He didn't and we just got punked that 1st qtr and that set the pace for the rest of the game man.

Horford is clearly very good. Woody is clearly very bad.

[Guest Walter]

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Walter the reasons teams are scoring more PPG with horford on the court is because Woody isn't using our team right.

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I think when comparing relative coaching Woody and Larry K. don't stand apart.

Woody is no defense for Horford when Krystkowiak is the coach for Yi.

W

[DJlaysitup]

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[i'd rather win an NBA title. W...

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Well we all would - six or eight of them if we had our choice. But I see your point. I remember talking to my ex-boss about 3 years ago. I told him "I bet he can tear it down (BK) but I bet he can't rebuild past average".

Hope I was wrong

[Lawstudent101]

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Walter the reasons teams are scoring more PPG with horford on the court is because Woody isn't using our team right.

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I think when comparing relative coaching Woody and Larry K. don't stand apart.

Woody is no defense for Horford when Krystkowiak is the coach for Yi.

W

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Yeah Walter, but listen man.

It's unfair to look at that stat because Horford basically must defend against a mismatch with no help in terms of double teams or an adjustment.

Did you not watch the game vs Washington? Did you not see how Horford was getting killed by Haywood?

I was screaming at the TV telling Woody to do SOMETHIGN to stop it. Put in Shellhead or double team Haywood, SOMETHING! ANYTHING! But Woody didn't and he just let all the damage be dealt, like always.

[AHF]

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Walter the reasons teams are scoring more PPG with horford on the court is because Woody isn't using our team right.

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I think when comparing relative coaching Woody and Larry K. don't stand apart.

Woody is no defense for Horford when Krystkowiak is the coach for Yi.

W

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This also depends a bit on what numbers you look like. I don't think they have performed differently in a way that is meaningful from a statistical perspective.

From a +/- perspective you could also say that Horford is +2.3 PER at his position whereas Yi is -.7 at his position (because Yi has allowed opponents to rack up a MUCH higher PER at his primary position than Horford has).

Both have come out of the gates pretty strong, IMO.

Give this more time before looking at the numbers for any deep meaning. Right now, a single game could tilt this "battle" in either direction.