What do we do about Joe Johnson???

[exodus]

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I play at the courts.

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Really? We never would have guessed.

You forgot to mention that you have been a fan for 100 years. Major oversight on your part.

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How exactly is he a star?

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Maybe because he played on the National Team and the

All-Star team. Not to mention averaging 25 ppg and coming through in clutch situations over and over.

[Traceman]

a backseat to him in order for the team to be successful Antoine Walker). Pierce was also surrounded with VETERANS such as Walker, Kenny Anderson, Eric Williams, Rodney Rogers, Tony Delk, Tony Battie and Vitaly Potapenko when he led the team to the EC Finals. There was also a young rookie named Joe Johnson who played about 21 mpg on that team.

Pierce's situation in no way compares to ANYTHING that JJ has faced here. I don't blame JJ for wanting veteran help if that is what the team promised him, I just hope he continues to play hard if the team decides not to fufill that promise and goes with the young guys.

[AtLaS]

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Careful PB, there's probably somebody lurking in the bushes to take you down for "bashing" players.

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If you constantly post negative things about players (which is all I've seen from you), YES you are bashing players.

This is what you said.

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For a team that, over the past few years, continually loses a lot of close games, there's a glaring need for that "killer instinct."

Joe doesn't have it and never has.

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You were absolutely 100% wrong, and were bashing Joe for something that he is not guilty of, because he HAS been one of the clutchest players in the league the past 2 years. If you are going to call a player out, at least get your facts straight.

[TheFormerJJBacker]

Hello All,

Long time, no squawk.

I'm back to lend a helping hand with regard to Joe. For those that don't remember me (and why should any of you) - I live in Phoenix, and have had Suns season tix since post-Barkley days (the only time over the past 15 years you could get season tix). Growing up, in addition to my hometown Suns, I liked the Hawks because I've always been short (I'm 5'7")... Spud Webb was my hero as a kid. I loved Nique, too... but Spud was my boy from afar.

Joe was my fav Suns player over the past 10 years (even though his stay wasn't overly long). I liked him at Arkansas, and was excited when the Suns acquired him from the Celtics for Tony Delk and Rodney Rodgers. I always appreciated his quiet game and personality. I was at a point when I was growing tired of "me-first" superstars, and his demeanor was huge with me.

Joe was never really loved by many Suns fans for the same reasons. People thought he didn't care, or that he lacked fire because of the way that he carried himself. He was always well-liked among his coaches and teammates because he was such a good guy.

I re-joined my Hawks fan status after Joe was traded to the Hawks. It was my own personal way of sticking it to Robert Sarver (whom I hate). I still have season tix - I couldn't bail on my team like that... but once a year - I rock a JJ Hawks jersey to US Airways Center.

Enough about me... I'm just here to give the facts:

(1) Joe did not leave the Suns to "be The Man." His situation with the Suns was all about his relationship with Robert Sarver. Joe was a restricted free agent in 05 as a result of not striking a deal prior to the 10/31 deadline before the 04/05 season started. Joe (and Arn Tellem) wanted 6 yrs/$50 mil. The Suns offered Joe 6 yrs/$45 mil. This particular summer was the first summer with Robert Sarver as acting owner. This same summer the Suns signed Nash to his deal and Q-Rich to his deal. Q got 5 yrs/$45 mil. One can understand why Joe would want 6 yrs/$50 mil. After the Suns (Robert Sarver wouldn't sign off on it) didn't extend Joe both Jerry and Bryan Colangelo came out and said that it was a mistake and that it was essentially Sarver's first rodeo. The perception in Phoenix was that had the Colangelo's still been "in power" - Joe would have been signed.

After the 04/05 season - the Suns' stated that it was their chief priority to resign Joe. Their first offer - 6 yrs/$50 mil. When Joe and Arn balked (because it was the offer they wanted a year ago), Sarver told Joe and his agent to go find an offer so the Suns would know what he wanted. Joe and Arn tried to talk to the Suns, but were told to go find an offer.

That same summer, Ray Allen, Michael Redd, and Larry Hughes also were FAs. Both Ray and Redd explored Cleveland, but (as we're all aware) eventually resigned with their home teams for the (then) max deal of 6 yrs/$90ish mil. Hughes signed with Cleveland for the "non-home team" max deal of 5 yrs/$70ish mil. That was the market in the Summer of 05, folks. Joe was younger than all three. He was better than Hughes then. He was seen to have the potential to be in the same class as Allen and Redd at some point.

The Hawks made a serious push for Joe. Joe and his agent's relationship with the Suns deteriorated. Joe liked the idea of playing in the South. The end.

However - during the 04/05 season - Joe was working with Q-Rich on building a house in Paradise Valley, AZ (a burb of PHX). Q knew about building homes because he had just built a house for he and Brandi to live in. Shawn Marion also owns a home in Paradise Valley. All three of them were very close. Joe had no intention of leaving Phoenix - he left after getting "mis-treated" by Robert Sarver. I posted on here a long time back about a conversation I had with Joe's mom at halftime during Joe's first game back to Phoenix 2 years ago. She was crying because everyone was booing. She stated (and I quote): "Joe never wanted this. He loves all those guys. In Atlanta they want him to be something he's not. He's always just wanted to play basketball. They want him to talk and yell at teamates - he's never really done that. It's hard."

I know this pretty much makes Joe look like a puss - but it is what it is. He never left to "be The Man." He left because he didn't like his boss. He liked his teammates (he and Shawn still talk all the time), he liked his coaches (he and Phil Weber and Mike D'Antoni are all still very close), and he liked his GM (he and Bryan Colangelo, not to mention his dad, Jerry, are still close). In fact it was a big deal in Phoenix when Joe was on the USA Roster because it essentially showed that the only reason that Joe wasn't still a Sun was due to Robert Sarver.

So... yeah - that's point #1 - Joe didn't leave Phoenix to "Be the Man."

(2) JJ pouting isn't a good thing - don't get me wrong. However, the only free agent activity that has occurred while Joe has been here have been:

- Traded Al to Indy

- Signed Speedy

- Signed Lo Wright.

That's it. Who wouldn't complain? That's no knock on Smoov, Marvin, nor Chillz - but Speedy and Lo Wright? That's all we've done? In two summers? I love Horford. I think Law will be fine. I think Marvin and Smoov are nice pieces, too. But when you're the "vet" and the only other vets coming in are Speedy and Lo Wright? I'd be annoyed, too.

(3) The ownership garbage still isn't settled... It got this way when they acquired him (better said: AS A RESULT of acquiring him) - and it's still there lingering in the background. It limits the contracts they can give, etc.

(4) Both Josh's not getting extensions. It's exactly what happened to him. Chillz was shocked. Smoov's pissed. The Hawks made an offer (according to Smoov's agent) early in the summer... and never made another offer. If you're Joe what does this remind you of? Remember how JOe got to ATL - he was a RFA... the Suns didn't want to pay him, so they traded him. If you're Joe aren't you imagining playing next year with Acie at point, JJ at SG, Marvin at SF, with a frontcourt of Shel, Al and ZaZa? WTF is that? He'll be in the fourth year of his deal and that's his squad? The Hawks have shown over the past 2 offseason's they're unable to get their stuff together enough to sign a quality FA... why would it change next summer?

(5) This still doesn't excuse Joe for pouting, I understand. If he's the max guy the Hawks are paying him to be, he just needs to shut his mouth and play. Unfortunately, this is all he ever wanted to do... but everyone wants him to be vocal. Make up your minds! Should he just shut up and play or should he be a max-player and whine? What do you want from him?

(6) These claims that he's not clutch, or that he's not on the same level as other superstars is silly. No he's not Kobe. Nor TMAC. Nor D-Wade. Comparing him to the best individual player in the NBA isn't fair - noone is Kobe. TMAC hasn't gotten out of the first round, has had more talent around him (in Houston, at least), and is injury-prone. D-Wade had Shaq (and a Dallas meltdown), and is also injury prone. Does anyone realize JJ was 9th in the league in ppg last year? (and he did it efficiently) This idea of not being clutch - did the Dallas game not happen this year? Did his 2 threes in Detroit not bring the Hawks back into that game? (Of note - didn't Marvin commit the foul on Billups that lost us that game?) Was it not occuring over the past few years where JJ had the most unassisted game-tying or winning buckets in the NBA? (More than Kobe, D-Wade, TMAC, Billups, or whoever else you want to name?)

In short (and apologies for the length) -

JJ is a good dude.

The Hawks FO is a mess.

JJ didn't leave the Suns to "Be the Man"

The Hawks don't sign free-agents

The Hawks don't extend their young talent either

JJ was an All-Star last year

JJ hits plenty of big buckets

JJ plays with plenty of emotion (watch his reaction after hitting the icing shot vs. the Mavs)

JJ will be shooting 45% from the field by the end of the year.

JJ will be dropping 25, 5, and 5 (or thereabouts) by the end of the year.

JJ will still be quiet.

The Hawks still won't sign anyone.

etc.

Sorry for the length... but the bitching was killing me.

Mark

[Diesel]

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He left because he didn't like his boss. He liked his teammates (he and Shawn still talk all the time), he liked his coaches (he and Phil Weber and Mike D'Antoni are all still very close), and he liked his GM (he and Bryan Colangelo, not to mention his dad, Jerry, are still close).

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I understand that there was a big rift between JJ and the ownership... I also understand that they didn't do right by him in his negotiations when they could have signed him to a large contract and didn't. But the idea of him being the man is how the media and Sarver played it. For instance..

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It appears that Joe Johnson's wish to swap a supporting role in Phoenix for star status in Atlanta is on the verge of being granted.

Joe Johnson

Guard-Forward

Phoenix Suns

Profile

2004-2005 SEASON STATISTICS

GM PPG RPG APG FG% FT%

82 17.1 5.1 3.5 .461 .750

NBA front-office sources told ESPN.com that the Suns and Hawks have locked into serious trade discussions that could send Johnson to the Eastern Conference via sign-and-trade as early as Tuesday afternoon.

The proposed deal, according to sources, would bring guard Boris Diaw and two lottery-protected future first-round picks to Phoenix -- along with a trade exception in the $5 million range -- after Johnson signs a contract under terms established by Atlanta: $70 million over five years with an estimated balloon payment of $20 million up front.

Johnson, a restricted free agent, has been planning for weeks to sign a five-year, $70 million offer sheet from Atlanta as soon as the league's moratorium on signings is lifted Tuesday at noon. On Thursday, Johnson stunned Suns managing partner Robert Sarver by asking Sarver directly not to match the offer, telling his boss that he prefers to continue his career as a Hawk. On Friday, at teammate Steve Nash's charity game in Toronto, Johnson revealed the request to ESPN.com and spoke excitedly about the opportunity to play point guard with the Hawks.

After maintaining for weeks that it would match any offer sheet Johnson signs, Phoenix chose a new course this weekend, ultimately deciding it was better for team chemistry to pursue a sign-and-trade with Atlanta instead of investing huge sums in a player who wants to leave.

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And

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“Joe Johnson made us aware of his personal desires which just didn't fit our model of building a team. We're sorry to see Joe leave and we wish him nothing but the best in Atlanta,” Suns President and General Manager Bryan Colangelo said. “Despite losing Joe, we are pleased that we have acquired a young, talented player in Boris Diaw, two first round draft picks and additional flexibility to keep our building process moving forward.”

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[Peoriabird]

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JJ pouting isn't a good thing - don't get me wrong. However, the only free agent activity that has occurred while Joe has been here have been:

- Traded Al to Indy

- Signed Speedy

- Signed Lo Wright.

That's it. Who wouldn't complain?

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I am still trying to figure out why the above is used as an excuse for Joe's poor play this year. He is shooting 40% from the field and 26% behind the arc! His defense has not been stellar and he still doesn't get to the free throw line as much as a #1 option should. His individual play has been inadequate thus far but yet he is pouting about others. Just go out and hit some shots consistently Joe! That is all you need to worry about right now!

[TroyMcClure]

It's not about you and me, ex. It's about the Hawks. I' am so sick of your "punking". You personally attack and take things out of context to support your "argument" more than any poster on this site.

Make fun of me actually playing consistently all you want. Fact is, I'm pretty good and am obviously not afraid of the likes of you. Again, try scoring on me, or at least be good enough to not let a little guy like me deny you the ball, the next time you want to make fun of me on the court. Oh, don't get beaten by me and have to foul to prevent a basket.

The point , if you can remember what that is, is that NO ONE at the street level considers Joe a star. Where does his jersey sale rank? *crickets*, right? The everyday fan of basketball does not consider Joe a star. You can't argue with that so you try to "punk" me. Will you ever grow up? We all know the answer to that.

Again, it's not about you and me and message board battles, it's about the Hawks and Joe sulking like a baby. Try arguing with Sothron over the accuracy of his info. My guess is you won't. If the info is accurate then so are the complaints, that are levied by more than just me mind you. *crickets"? Go ahead, the facts get in the way, just attack me personally.

Be honest, I know that's asking a lot, but how many clutch situations have the Hawks been in with Joe? We've won 71 games a week into his 4th year! I wish he could be as "clutch" during the whole game as he is in your mind in the 4th qtr of meaningless games.

Being a replacement on the national team and the East squad does not make you a star. People universally recognizing you, making endorsements and such make you a star. We have won 71 games with Joe on the roster and about 8 without him last year. Really, we've won about 60 games with Joe in 3 years and he's a star?

How many 30 win teams win at a higher clip with their "star" sidelined? *super, enourmous, deafening crickets*

You act like a child every time someone isn't sucking Joe's nuts. Why? You can't like the taste that much. So that leaves you and your ego. Stop trying to "punk" everyone. You are not employed by Joe Johnson. He doesn't need a Hype machine. Wait, actually he does. If he wants to be a "STAR".

And I have been a Hawks fan for a long time. Just not as long as you've been an Exodus fan.

[Diesel]

I'm not saying that it's an excuse, but JJ missed the last 25 games of the season last year due to injury. It might be that he's just not tuned up yet. Along with that, you get the frustration of not being the player that you should be AND we have bad coaching.

I think that a good thing for us to do is either:

1. Go full fledged Up-tempo and let JJ be our 2ndary shooter.

2. Start off these halfcourt games Woody likes by establishing Horford as our low post scorer and let JJ work his way into the offense.

I think it's too much pressure on JJ for us to give him the ball and say "OK allstar, do your thing".

[TroyMcClure]

I like #2 the best. It seems like Joe is crumbling under the pressure. I'm not saying it is all his fault. Woody is obviously the main problem. But Joe has some blame himself. That's why it's troubling to see him try to redistribute the blame. A leader takes it on his shoulders whether it's his fault or not.

[exodus]

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It's not about you and me, ex. It's about the Hawks. I' am so sick of your "punking". You personally attack and take things out of context to support your "argument" more than any poster on this site.

Make fun of me actually playing consistently all you want. Fact is, I'm pretty good and am obviously not afraid of the likes of you. Again, try scoring on me, or at least be good enough to not let a little guy like me deny you the ball, the next time you want to make fun of me on the court. Oh, don't get beaten by me and have to foul to prevent a basket.

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Really? So where did i call you a punk or a prick?

You are the one who has to get personal ALL the time. Every single time someone disagrees with you it is the same story. " I actually play and i have been a Hawks fan for 100 years..." ok that is swell but WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE HAWKS? NOTHING.

Do street level people determine who the stars are? How much do people talk about Tim Duncan on the street.

There are pleny of people here who play but they don't mention it in their posts because it is irrelevant to the Hawks.

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it's about the Hawks and Joe sulking like a baby.

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Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Whenever someone disagrees with you there is the automatic whining and name calling from you. You can NEVER just stick to the topic.

Grow a spine and argue your points with some logic or get yourself a pacifier.

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Try arguing with Sothron over the accuracy of his info. My guess is you won't. If the info is accurate then so are the complaints

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I have never argued with Sothron over the accuracy of his reports about anything. There is no reason for me to because i can't prove or disprove them. He has given me no reason to believe he is lying.

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How many 30 win teams win at a higher clip with their "star" sidelined?

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They didn't

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You act like a child every time someone isn't sucking Joe's nuts. Why?

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So this isn't a personal attack? That comment isn't acting like a child? Sure thing Mr Pot.

Show me one thing i have said that is as childish as these comments.

I don't care if someone is "sucking Joe's nuts". But when the best player on my favorite team gets bashed i will have something to say about it.

Your responses are the most childish on the board by a mile.

[exodus]

Typical response when someone disagrees with Troy

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I've probably been a Hawks fan longer than you've been wiping yourself.

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click

Real mature.

[TroyMcClure]

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Typical response when someone disagrees with Troy

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I've probably been a Hawks fan longer than you've been wiping yourself.

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click

Real mature.

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That is an accurate statement. That situation has nothing to do with you. I'm cool with Bus. We've respectfully disagreed before. I got a little snippy that time. oooooh. I disagree with Atlas on a number of issues. That doesn't mean I'm constantly trying to punk him. You are really the only person I argue with. Looking at your track record, you'll argue with almost anyone.

You've got to let this Joe thing go. There are more people than me that think he has some maturing to do, both in his game and his role as team leader. I like the guy. I really do. I just want to win and I had hoped he would be the main cog. It is becoming painfully clear that even with a better coach, there is a lower ceiling for Joe than I had thought.

[exodus]

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That is an accurate statement. That situation has nothing to do with you.

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And it has nothing to do with the JJ or any topic about this team since none of the current players were here before 2004.

There are plenty of people on here who have been fans a long time but they rarely bring it up because it isn't relevant to this team.

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There are more people than me that think he has some maturing to do,

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That is true. And when i disagree with them they respond to the acutual topic which you are cant seem to do.

After the Wizards game i commented that it looked like a temper tantrum from JJ and that was before Sothron made his post.

If you think other stars don't have attitude issues you are deluded. Jordan was notorious for his tantrums in practice and publicly against the GM.

Kobe got mad at management because the plane they provided for him to go back and forth to Colorado for his rape trial was too small.

[TroyMcClure]

See, this is what I'm talking about. I started a Why can't Joe shoot thread. We were just talking. Clearly, I was not attacking, just commenting on what I perceived to be the problem and how to correct it. Then, totally unprovoked, you insult my memory and give me your *crickets* garbage trying to punk me.

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Since your memory doesn't last longer than [Re: TroyMcClure]

#261551 - 11/10/07 09:45 AM Edit Reply Quote

24 hours i thought i would recap the first two games of the season.

11-2 vs Dallas JJ was 12-22 for 28 pts including 6 pts and an assist in the final 2 minutes.

11-4 vs Detroit. JJ was 9-17 for 23 pts. In the first half JJ only scored 6 pts and started the game 1-5.

In the second half he scored 17 including back to back 3s with a minute left to pull the Hawks within 1.

What does Troy have to say about JJ after these games?

*crickets*

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So, what were you saying about not being a total ass? *crickets*

[exodus]

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See, this is what I'm talking about. I started a Why can't Joe shoot thread. We were just talking. Clearly, I was not attacking, just commenting on what I perceived to be the problem and how to correct it. Then, totally unprovoked, you insult my memory and give me your *crickets* garbage trying to punk me.

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Since your memory doesn't last longer than [Re: TroyMcClure]

#261551 - 11/10/07 09:45 AM Edit Reply Quote

24 hours i thought i would recap the first two games of the season.

11-2 vs Dallas JJ was 12-22 for 28 pts including 6 pts and an assist in the final 2 minutes.

11-4 vs Detroit. JJ was 9-17 for 23 pts. In the first half JJ only scored 6 pts and started the game 1-5.

In the second half he scored 17 including back to back 3s with a minute left to pull the Hawks within 1.

What does Troy have to say about JJ after these games?

*crickets*

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So, what were you saying about not being a total ass? *crickets*

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Again with the name calling. So who's being childish? You just can't stop yourself.

Again my post pointed out the fact that JJ had just had two very good shooting games against title contenders where he came up clutch both times.

But you don't pay attention to good games. you are only interested in the bad ones. That has been the case from the time you started posting on here.

Did you see me mention anything about my playing ability or how long i have been a fan, as you do every time? No, because it has no relevance.

[TroyMcClure]

Can you respond to anything? Why is it ok for you to attack me out of the blue?

Who cares what you TRIED to point out? You're talking about relevance?

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Did you see me mention anything about my playing ability or how long i have been a fan, as you do every time?

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We've been over this. You argue like a 12 yr old brat. I've got 1200 posts.

The point is you attacked me. Unprovoked. IT is fact. It's on record in the thread. How do you respond, sir?

[exodus]

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Can you respond to anything? Why is it ok for you to attack me out of the blue?

Who cares what you TRIED to point out? You're talking about relevance?

The point is you attacked me. Unprovoked. IT is fact. It's on record in the thread. How do you respond, sir?

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I attacked you?

You have called me a prick, a punk, an ass, a brat and insane in a very short time span.

What name did i call you?

The only thing i said is that you forgot about the first two games of the season where JJ shot very well. You call that an attack?

[TroyMcClure]

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I attacked you?

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More of a jab, in reality. But why?

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You have called me a prick, a punk, an ass, a brat and insane in a very short time span.

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And you act like all of those things on a regular basis. I stand by that.

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What name did i call you?

The only thing i said is that you forgot about the first two games of the season where JJ shot very well.

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McClown. Repeatedly

You also implied that I have nothing good to say when he plays good or that I somehow don't actually cheer for the Hawks, but that I truly wish they play bad to support my arguments. That is completely untrue. I don't know how you were raised or what kind of dishonest people make up your life, but if that's how you presume everyone to be, it's really sad for you. I'm a Hawks fan and I won't have that questioned by you.

[exodus]

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And you act like all of those things on a regular basis. I stand by that.

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And i stand by my contention that you are the most childish poster here by a mile. There is nothing more childish than name calling.

You come on here bashing the players and when someone disagrees you whine like a kid who just got his favorite blanket taken away.

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You also implied that I have nothing good to say when he plays good

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so why don't you find some of your quotes praising JJ after a good game?

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McClown

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I have said it once in months, and that was after you had just called me a prick.

[gsuteke]

I can feel it!