Time to air some dirty landry!

[AHF]

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"We are better playing poor defense, not rebounding and turning the ball over"

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There are teams that play poor defense, turn the ball over and not rebound but still win

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With our personnel we shoul definitely do a good job playing defense and rebounding. Until we get a better point (or Law develops into a real presence on this team) we are probably going to have issues with turnovers. We should clearly not be a team that plays poor defense, turns the ball over, and doesn't rebound, IMO.

[DrReality]

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i say we make P-Bird the coach, he looks a lot smarter than woody for one thing, and he makes a lot more sense to me.

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there may be nothing left to argue about? Good post. Consise and i agree, except for the one about the pg. What system is it that Woody uses that he's supposed to run????

[Diesel]

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I said in our system the point guard's role is to bring the ball past mid court. We don't score anymore tthan we normally do when the point guard penetrate because kicking it to Smith on the peremeter does not make us more efficient!

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I think this really is a point that cannot be made until you see us with a good PG. ON those OCCASIONS that AJ or Acie drive and penetrate, we are a much better team. A lot of times however, they don't and we look like a team standing around. I would think that a better PG would do the things that work more consistently. It's no slight to Acie because he's still young. It's not really a slight to AJ because that's not his game. So in the absence of good PG play, you can't say that we don't need a good PG.

It may be that a Good PG makes us a dominant team instead of a mediocre one.

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Marvin on the other hand, thus far, is only a third or 4th option who has problems creating for himself.

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Take the D_mn blinders off please

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Actually, if you would be more honest with yourself... On the pecking order... Marvin comes behind JJ, Smoove, and sometimes Horf.... DOES HE NOT??

Moreover, unless somebody passing to Marvin while he's in his spot, he usually doesn't create opportunities for himself does he?? As of this moment, Marvin is working on putting the ball on the floor, but for the most part his shot is still the standstill jump shot off the pass. That's not creating. Smoove has spurts of not being able to create and until last night, I figured out what it is. However, he is showing that he can attack the basket pretty consistently when he doesn't settle. Marvin is less consistent at that.

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Never said that we couldn't run but we can't win games by being out rebounded or out shot like Phoenix can

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This of course is a diversion. You make the wrong assumption that running means no rebounding. We must rebound to run. I don't support running like Phoenix does because we don't have the shooters or the PG that Phoenix do. They can afford to be unorthodox in their uptempo game because they can cover up for the short comings with great shooting and passing. US on the otherhand have to be more traditional with uptempo meaning that job one is rebounding. Job two is filling lanes and knowing your assignments. Job three is all out attack on the rim. Our main struggles right now is one of Philosophy. The untaught believe that uptempo is just bringing the ball up quickly. That's not uptempo, that's just using more shot clock to set your offense. True uptempo is an all ought attack on the rim with everybody having an assignment in that attack and nobody missing their duty.

[Diesel]

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Diesel, you are flat wrong about Marvin not being able to create. He had a sweet bucket where he took one dribble forward and then stepped back for a jumper. Also, he is getting fouled alot driving to the basket. If he didn't know how to create, then why are defenders fouling him??

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I didn't say that Marvin is not working on it. What I said is that right now, he's not.

That is to say that he doesn't consistently put the ball on the floor and create. Moreover, the question of why Marvin gets fouled is this... He's very unorthodox in his drive. He drives with his head down and he always looks like he's about to stumble. There's no good defense for that. However, let's go back to remember what creating for yourself really means.

James Worthy... You know the guy people Said that Marvin would be like... Worthy would get the ball from anywhere on the court, he could dribble through traffic and past his man for a score. Defenses had to prepare for Worthy by not giving him a baseline drive.

Modern Day: Tmac, Kobe, Vince, Baron, Bron, Especially Wade, Pierce, JJ, Parker, Ginobili, etc.

These guys have the body control, vision, and ball handling skill to put the ball on the floor in any circumstance, get to the spot that they want to shoot from and punch holes in a defense. IF MARVIN Could create for himself, then Zone defenses would not give us trouble.

[Diesel]

I see that the Marvin lovers jumped out to protect Marvin however, I want them to look at what I have said with an understanding of the facts.... Here's what I said:

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IF this were to lead to Horf playing PF then it's true. Regardless of how good Marvin can shoot the safe shot... Smoove has the ability to play both sides of the court. When he plays going to the basket, he's a nightmare. Marvin on the other hand, thus far, is only a third or 4th option who has problems creating for himself.

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First off Smoove has the ability to play BOTH SIDES OF THE COURT...

This is obviously a comparison of Smoove and Marvin and if Horf were moved back to PF, who would we want playing Sf. My rationale for SMoove is that he is a more complete player.

Whenever the Marvin lovers talk about Marvin, they talk about his shooting percentage. That's great. Love that he's hitting shots. However, does that make the statement less true? Hell no.

Smoove is the top shot blocker in the league.

Smoove is top ten in steals.

Smoove is a pretty good rebounder.

Smoove is the most feared player playing the game when people are trying to score in transition.

What's on Marvin's defensive resume'??

Talking facts here people?

Secondly, I said when Smoove plays going to the basket, he's a night mare...

When did that stop being true? Teams give Smoove the open Jump shot because they are scared to death of him learning how to drive. WHY? because he's your worst night mare on a drive. He's big, strong, and can finish.

Third... I said "Marvin thus far is a third or fourth option on offense."

Who gets to shoot first... Marvin or JJ?

Who gets to shoot first... Marvin or Smoove?

If you said JJ and Smoove, Marvin is already 3rd option.

Who gets to shoot first Marvin or Horford??

Damn, are the facts just killing you right now or what?

One more...

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who has problems creating for himself

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note, I didn't say that he doesn't create for himself. I said has problems doing it. FOR the facts are, if he didn't have problems creating for himself:

1. He would be at least 2nd option.

2. He would score more.

3. We would see him score on drives more.

What does Marvin do?

He still scores primarily on Jumpshots off the pass. I call those easy shots because mainly he's wide open most of the time.

He's learning to put a jab stab in his game, but he's still not consistent when he drives to the hole.

So how about the FACTS??

Or will you ignore the facts and keep up your agenda??

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Good post about Marvin's offensive game. When we go through those stretches when the the offense can't function without JJ, either Marvin or Smoove are the primary scoring options on the floor. If Marvin could effectively create his shot, especially his jumper, we'd be able to rest JJ more in games. But because neither guy can create a decent shot off the dribble ( other than getting to the hole ), the Hawks struggle to score if they can't get the lay-up or the foul.

Marvin has definitely improved from last year though. When he's open, he's not passing up the shot. He just needs learn when to attack, and when to settle for the jumper. He had a situation last night in which he ended up with Damon Stoudamire on him about 15 feet from the basket, in the 2nd quarter. Instead of immeadiately attacking him and forcing Darko to defend him at the rim, he passed out to an open man . . . I think it was AJ. It was a good ball movement play, but with that midget on him, he should've attacked Damon and challenged Darko at the rim.

That's one of the drawbacks of him not staying an extra year at UNC. If he had, he would've learned some of the nuances of being a lead scorer, instead of a complimentary scorer. He has talent to be a lead scorer, but he needs to create his shot a little more and develop that lead scorer mentality. Like I said a few days ago when taking about Salim. People wish that Marvin had Salim's mentality when it comes to scoring. If he did, Marvin could be a potent offensive weapon. Right now, Marvin is Corey Maggette. I'll take that for now.

[PureGreatness]

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LOL . . I believe the Hawks were up double digits when JJ and Horford left the game. And Memphis got a little warm offensively. But in the 2nd quarter, they literally couldn't score with JJ out of the game.

Wes Welker of the Patriots is a good receiver. But because Randy Moss is on the field, Welker sometimes looks like a great receiver. A player like JJ, in which teams try to take out, enables guys like Marvin and Smoove to see one on one coverage all night. When JJ is out, the offense almost always becomes less efficent.

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that statement would be true if joe wasnt missing wide open shots. jj has tooken a step back every since that seattle game.

[MikeWilksBooth]

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that statement would be true if joe wasnt missing wide open shots. jj has tooken a step back every since that seattle game.

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Oh man Hoodstar, Atlanta Public Schools must be going down hill fast! They've really "tooken" a step back!!!!!

[TexasPete]

Corey Maggette? I don't think so. Marvin plays 10x better defense that CM. There is another side to the court.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Teams still have to account for JJ though. If JJ is 2 - 7 in a game, teams aren't going to back off from him and let him shoot. The opposing defenses are still gameplanning to limit how effective JJ can be in a game. Imagine the Hawks without JJ, and opposing defenses planning to shut down Smoove or Marvin. A good defensive team could easily do it, because creating their own shot isn't their strength.

LOL . . . some of you act like JJ is a liability or something. If that were the case, he wouldn't have to play 40+ minutes every night. It's the same thing that went for Smoove last month. Yeah he was struggling big time offensively, but it's not like we can do without the guy. His deal was that he just needed to stop taking shots and slow down a little. And he's our best playmaker, everyone talking bad about JJ seems to forget that.

With JJ, he just needs to make a point to get to the hole early in games, to see if he can get going, instead of trying to knock down 3's right off the bat. But he definitely doesn't need to stop shooting. Shooters shoot themselves out of slumps.

[Peoriabird]

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LOL . . . some of you act like JJ is a liability or something. If that were the case, he wouldn't have to play 40+ minutes every night.

It's the same thing that went for Smoove last month. Yeah he was struggling big time offensively, but it's not like we can do without the guy.

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You JJ and Smith apologist kill me! Last month Smith was playing poorly and we were loosing! He is playing better this month and we are winning! What is so hard to understand about that simple concept? As far JJ is concerned, anyone shooting 35% from the field and taking the majority of the shots on your team is a liability!

[NJHAWK]

#15. Billy Knight is a bad GM. Hell no, BK has built one of the most talented teams in the league after getting rid of contracts that were close to impossible to dump. Not only are we loaded with talented players but they are all young and keep getting BETTER AND BETTER.

[AtLaS]

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#15. Billy Knight is a bad GM. Hell no, BK has built one of the most talented teams in the league after getting rid of contracts that were close to impossible to dump. Not only are we loaded with talented players but they are all young and keep getting BETTER AND BETTER.

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You are right, he has managed to draft so bad that he has been rewarded with high picks every year. He has drafted so bad that he lucked up and fell ass backwards into a top 3 pick this year. He has GMed so horribly that our entire franchises future rested on a 30-40% chance that we got to keep our pick. He should be applauded for being lucky as hell.

[Guest]

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#15. Billy Knight is a bad GM. Hell no, BK has built one of the most talented teams in the league after getting rid of contracts that were close to impossible to dump. Not only are we loaded with talented players but they are all young and keep getting BETTER AND BETTER.

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You are right, he has managed to draft so bad that he has been rewarded with high picks every year. He has drafted so bad that he lucked up and fell ass backwards into a top 3 pick this year. He has GMed so horribly that our entire franchises future rested on a 30-40% chance that we got to keep our pick. He should be applauded for being lucky as hell.

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And I guess BK's sub .300 winning percentage is proof that he is a good GM? I will never understand why BK gets so much credit from posters for producing nothing. He has only accumulated talent because of high draft picks which are a result of being a bad team. And this last draft could have been a disaster as Atlas points out, we had roughly a 30-40% chance of getting a pick and we got lucky.

I was told once by an old tennis coach that "I'd rather be lucky than good" and I guess BK fits this.

[NJHAWK]

Did he draft Joe Johnson or did he trade Diaw and two 1st round picks, one which he aquired for Antoine Walker to get Joe. Was Smoove drafted with a high pick or was he picked with a 1st round pick that was aquired by essentially DUMPING the horrible contracts of Reef and Ratliff. Did Bk or did Bk not get rid of Glenn Hog Dog fat Bog Robinsons contract and actually GET a little something for him. Where and when has BK drafted bad? I guess you can say Shelden since he really doesnt play a whole lot yet. I guess we could have taken Roy and had him play 5 minutes a game behind JJ and Chills. Im sure Marvun will be talked about but every gm wanted Marvin. Almost every scout said in 5 years when the draft is looked back at Marv will be the best player from it. We 3 years in Marv is starting to show that they may be right after all. I know, I know if we drafted Paul we would have started winning and making the playoffs already, lol just like the Hornest have these last 2 years. Sure we could use Paul on offense, there is no doubt about that. Problem is he is as bad if not worse than TLue on defense. Marv is a borderline great defensive player and he is getting better. HE IS FAR FROM A BAD DRAFT PICK. SMOOVE IS FAR FROM A BAD DRAFT PICK. JJ was stolen from the Suns for bad draft picks lol. Unless you want to insert the name of some great talent we gave up for JJ cause I see no one on the Suns who qualifies. CHILLS IS FAR FROM A BAD DRAFT PICK. Chills is right there with Iggy and Deng and if we were in as sorry situation as Philly is now and needed Chills to be our go to guy he could put up #'s like Iggy. Thank God we have talent everywhere on this team and Chill can be one of the leagues best 6th men. HORFORD AND LAW ARE NOT BAD DRAFT PICKS. At least right now it looks like BK has grabbed us 2 more solid players.

[Diesel]

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Almost every scout said in 5 years when the draft is looked back at Marv will be the best player from it. We 3 years in Marv is starting to show that they may be right after all.

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Do you really believe that Marv will ever be on the level with Paul and Deron?

The same argument you make for Marv, I hear from Milwaukee fans about Bogut.

The truth of the matter is that Paul and Deron are franchise changing players. Marvin is a player that we have to surround with good players and quality coaching to see something close to star ability. With NOTHING Paul was a star.... Just like in College. There's a great difference.

[Guest]

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Did Bk or did Bk not get rid of Glenn Hog Dog fat Bog Robinsons contract and actually GET a little something for him.

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Please elaborate on this, I would love to hear what you have to say about this "a little something" for him.

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JJ was stolen from the Suns for bad draft picks lol.

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We gave him a max contract and sent them essentiall 3 first rounders, how is that stealing? You really blow my mind with some of this stuff.

I like how your main defense has been "XXX HAS BEEN FAR FROM A BAD PICK", it is as if you have to defend things from being bad as opposed to affirming anything good that has happened. You also fail to address BK's winning percentage and only give claims about future maybes for this team.

None of your "argument" (if you can call jumbled thoughts put together and argument) has anything original or compelling that would make anyone change their stance from the "myth" that BK is a bad GM.

[TexasPete]

NJ Hawk is reaching just a little on BK I think. We were extremely lucky to get the 3rd pick this year and that was simply luck. You don't pat a guy on the back because he got lucky. It's like hitting a golf ball 100 yards wide of your target, having it hit a big tree, and deflecting onto the green. Is that a good shot? Hell no.

BK has screwed this team over and over. The Chill pick, the Marvin pick, the unreal Shelly pick, the fact we still don't have a ready PG, keeping Woodson, ignoring talents like Monte Ellis and Lou Williams for Salim, trading a pick for Anthony Johnson, etc.

He is a lousy GM by any objective measure but his employers are just as incompetant. And that is LUCKY for BK.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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You JJ and Smith apologist kill me! Last month Smith was playing poorly and we were loosing! He is playing better this month and we are winning! What is so hard to understand about that simple concept? As far JJ is concerned, anyone shooting 35% from the field and taking the majority of the shots on your team is a liability!

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Your focus is only on the offensive side of the ball. We're winning because we're playing better team defense. Even though Smoove was struggling, he's still a vital part our defense. When he's rebounding and blocking shots, we're more likely to win, than when he's scoring a lot.

Go check his game log. In the losses, the one thing that really sticks out, are the number of rebounds he grabs. Just like when JJ goes out the game and the offense grinds to a halt, Smith has almost the same effect on the defensive end, when he goes out the game. As a team, we can survive a poor a shooting performance from JJ or Smith, if we're playing D and crashing the boards.

And you forget that JJ is our best playmaker. He had a 3 - 17 performance against Phooenix, but still had 15 points mainly because he got to the line. But more importantly, he dished out 10 assists. And he did these things in the 4th quarter of that game,when it really counted.

The number JJ needs to reach every night, is 30 - 35 points either scored or created for us. In the Phoenix game, that number I think was 37 points created. He's a playmaker and a scorer. Guys like that can't come out the game, just because they have a bad shooting night. LOL . . . his assist number should probably around 7 assists a game, but the team as a whole tends to miss open shots in bunches.

[Peoriabird]

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Your focus is only on the offensive side of the ball. We're winning because we're playing better team defense. Even though Smoove was struggling, he's still a vital part our defense. When he's rebounding and blocking shots, we're more likely to win, than when he's scoring a lot.

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Smith has not been rebounding the ball well this month but yet we've been winning.

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Just like when JJ goes out the game and the offense grinds to a halt,

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Then please explain to me why our scoring average and shooting percentage went up the last month of the season last year over the team's seasonal average when Johnson didn't play one minute!