Hawks need Marvin to become strong(er) 2nd option

[HAWKS1986]

On the surface, if you look at his stats, he is averaging close to 16 points a game, and has improved each year. However, the Hawks need more from the former #2 pick. This is his third season, and its time for him to start stringing together consecutive games of 20 or more points and being more forceful offensively.

Marvin only took SEVEN SHOTS against the Pistons. Marvin needs to be in that 18 to 20 range nightly and outside of Joe Johnson has the best offensive skillset on the team.

I want to see Marvin start to dominate games and get the opposing player in foul trouble.

The Hawks are not going to stay at .500 if Marvin can not take his game to a higher level on a consistent basis.

[bumpyphish1]

The progress Marvin has shown is encouraging, imo. Very few "superstars" are superstars a quarter into their 3rd seasons. Marv is progressing nicely, imo. Not saying he will ever be a "superstar" but not saying he won't either. One thing I know is true, Marvin will still only get better and his stats will be significantly better when he tops out, which he has clearly not. Still growing into that long body.

Oh, and one might argue that he needs better PG play or a better system to get him better looks.

[HAWKS1986]

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The progress Marvin has shown is encouraging, imo. Very few "superstars" are superstars a quarter into their 3rd seasons. Marv is progressing nicely, imo. Not saying he will ever be a "superstar" but not saying he won't either. One thing I know is true, Marvin will still only get better and his stats will be significantly better when he tops out, which he has clearly not. Still growing into that long body.

Oh, and one might argue that he needs better PG play or a better system to get him better looks.

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I agree, he is progressing. However, he has to take his game to another level. Other young players who have been in the league two or three years and under 23 are contributing are viable second options and helped their team secure playoff berths: Deron Williams, Ben Gordon, Carmelo Anthony, Dwight Howard, Monta Ellis, etc.

Marvin has a skillset, but he has to have a more aggressive approach instead of being content of being in the background on some nights.. You're it Marvin!!!

There are too many 'background' guys on this team (Chiilz, ZaZa, Shelden, etc.) and when this team is challenged by a good team like Detroit or Boston, we don't know what to do (for a quarter and a half and lose control of the game).. This is where Marvin has to step forward and be an example and use his talents and maximize his skillset..

[DJlaysitup]

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...Marvin only took SEVEN SHOTS against the Pistons. Marvin needs to be in that 18 to 20 range nightly and outside of Joe Johnson has the best offensive skillset on the team....

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Well if our hero - JJ - wasn't hogging the ball maybe Marvin would get more shots. I'm beginning to think the cross between JJ and JS isn't what it sounds like. JS and Marvin get along. Maybe our "all-star" is the problem. Just maybe JS and Marvin could get along just fine.

[HAWKS1986]

I don't think JJ is hogging the ball like Lue had done or Kobe had done..However, Joe is the team's best player and of course he is going to take more shots, but Marvin has to have a willingness to make plays himself.. Does he want the ball at crunch time? Marvin seems to fade in and fade out..

If Marvin is able to get the job done, I believe Joe will gladly defer to Marvin..but marvin hasn't decided to take that proverbial brass ring.. Nobody is going to give it to you, he is going to have to take it

Josh Smith was once described as Vince Carter with HEART back in 2004, but Smith's ballhandling and three point shooting hasn't quite developed (and may never will).. Josh's game is limited,but this is where Marvin has to pick up the slack..

Marvin has a better offensive skillset, but lacks the intensity and will to win that Josh has always had since he has enter the league..I am not sayig Marvin needs a 'heart transplant', but the day the Hawks go over .500 is the day Marvin decided its time for him to LEAD...

[DJlaysitup]

Well you can't "lead" if you don't touch the ball on offense - it's as simple as that and I watch every game...start to finish. A lot of times JJ has been "pounding" just like Lue. No ball movement. It's the truth. I watched. Eye witness.

[TheDude]

Well one thing I've noticed is Marvin IS being more aggressive (see that nasty attempt at a dunk over a Piston player) and does attempt to take over at times.

It always seems that in the 2nd quarter it looks like he will automatically finish with 20 points or more but almost never does strangely.

But he's not aggressive on a more consistent basis throughout the game. He only tries to take over in spurts as opposed to continuosly looking for that advantage (even if the advantage is passing the ball, don't want him to become a ballhog). Right now he seems to play more of a "ok, it's your turn" type ball where he doesnt want to go for it cuz it's not his turn.

[Diesel]

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Very few "superstars" are superstars a quarter into their 3rd seasons.

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This is BS right??

First, I think Marvin and Superstar should not be used in the same paragraph... Maybe even thread.

Second. your statement is blatanly wrong.

You can't find one "superstar" who wasn't a superstar by his 3rd year... Especially not given the playing time that Marvin has been given.

Last night, late into the game, the Pistons announcers showed our big three. And Marvin was at his average... and didn't score after that.

[Diesel]

If Marvin got the game, then let him be a ball hog. How many superstars wasn't ball hogs at one point or another (besides PGs like Kidd and Nash)??

Part of being a superstar is wanting the ball in your hands when the game is on the line or when your teams needs you...

Marvin is not that.

[gsuteke]

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If Marvin got the game, then let him be a ball hog. How many superstars wasn't ball hogs at one point or another (besides PGs like Kidd and Nash)??

Part of being a superstar is wanting the ball in your hands when the game is on the line or when your teams needs you...

Marvin is not that.

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How did Joe and Josh shoot last night? I don't have it in front of me.

How did Marvin fare?

[exodus]

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If Marvin got the game, then let him be a ball hog. How many superstars wasn't ball hogs at one point or another (besides PGs like Kidd and Nash)??

Part of being a superstar is wanting the ball in your hands when the game is on the line or when your teams needs you...

Marvin is not that.

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How did Joe and Josh shoot last night? I don't have it in front of me.

How did Marvin fare?

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Marvin played fine. He was 4-7 from the field (although he did miss an open dunk on the break) and got to the line 10 times.

Meanwhile Smith was 4-15 with 5 turnovers (the rest of the team had 6).

JJ started off cold but finished 9-20 from the field, not bad against the Pistons.

[Diesel]

I don't have the stats.. Exodus can give them to you.

However, I know that Josh was like 2-12 going into the late fourth.

Joe was pretty consistent. He hit some... he missed some. HE was especially off in the first quarter, but by the third he had really warmed up.

We really looked good in the third and almost made me believe we were going to win.. I thought we were going to win when AJ stole the ball from Billups in the upon court and went for the dunk. I thought that then we recognized that Billups is not a great ball handler... We were hustling.. and then JJ blew two free throws. It was then I recognized we wouldn't win.

I really can't fault our guys for the loss because everytime we'd get a run going it was either a Smoove bad shot or a WOody sub bringing in no defense playing Zaza!!

[thesheedera]

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On the surface, if you look at his stats, he is averaging close to 16 points a game, and has improved each year. However, the Hawks need more from the former #2 pick. This is his third season, and its time for him to start stringing together consecutive games of 20 or more points and being more forceful offensively.

Marvin only took SEVEN SHOTS against the Pistons. Marvin needs to be in that 18 to 20 range nightly and outside of Joe Johnson has the best offensive skillset on the team.

I want to see Marvin start to dominate games and get the opposing player in foul trouble.

The Hawks are not going to stay at .500 if Marvin can not take his game to a higher level on a consistent basis.

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Not easy getting shots when you're forward counterpart's going 4-15.

You're right that Marvin has leaps and bounds to go to be a superstar, but he's not the reason we've been losing half our games. We may have won those games if Marvin were playing like a superstar, but the bigger issue is other Hawks players playing flat out POORLY in those games.

[Admin]

If Smoove could consistently bring what Marvin brings every game we would be a better team. If Smoove could consistently bring what he does during his superstar games (like his 26 point 10 rebound player of the week games) we would be a significantly better team. Instead he plays out of his mind for a few games and then comes back with an absolutely horrible game like he had last night and the game before when we played the Pistons.

In his past 3 games Smoove is a combined 13-46 (.282%) with 44 points while Marvin is a combined 16-32 (.500%) with 50 points. Image if Marvin had been given those 46 shots instead of Smoove? Going by his recent and close to it season FG% he would have made 10 more shots than Smoove for roughly 20 more points and considering our point differential over those past 3 games has been -22 in the losses and +11 in the wins we might have won one of the two losses.

That doesn't even take into account the fact that JJ has been damned inconsistent as well and has struggled mightily getting his shots off without someone almost always being in his face. I don't put that on him as much I do the coaching staff for not running him off of multiple screens but his poor production lately has definitely hurt us.

The bottom line is that Marvin is doing a fantastic job of being our #3 scorer. He is a year younger than Smoove and has been in the league a year less and he shouldn't be expected to outperform Smoove and honestly I don't believe he can when they are both playing at the top of their games. The problem is that while Marvin almost never has a great game he almost never has a bad game either but the same cannot be said of Smoove or JJ. If either (or can you imagine both) of them scored at or near their season average in points with a 40% or better shooting percentage 90% of the time we would be twice the team that we are now.

[oiatlhawksfan]

I'm not scared to say it, i think Marvin will be a superstar! But only 7 FA, c'mon Marv you should be shooting atleast 15 times a game, or more than Smoove atleast.

[gsuteke]

The Hawks look terrible against teams that play solid defense.

The Hawks look pretty good against teams that try to score alot of points.

It seems as if either Woodson or Knight would have figured it out by now.

I predict a W tonight.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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If Smoove could consistently bring what Marvin brings every game we would be a better team. If Smoove could consistently bring what he does during his superstar games (like his 26 point 10 rebound player of the week games) we would be a significantly better team. Instead he plays out of his mind for a few games and then comes back with an absolutely horrible game like he had last night and the game before when we played the Pistons.

In his past 3 games Smoove is a combined 13-46 (.282%) with 44 points while Marvin is a combined 16-32 (.500%) with 50 points. Image if Marvin had been given those 46 shots instead of Smoove? Going by his recent and close to it season FG% he would have made 10 more shots than Smoove for roughly 20 more points and considering our point differential over those past 3 games has been -22 in the losses and +11 in the wins we might have won one of the two losses.

That doesn't even take into account the fact that JJ has been damned inconsistent as well and has struggled mightily getting his shots off without someone almost always being in his face. I don't put that on him as much I do the coaching staff for not running him off of multiple screens but his poor production lately has definitely hurt us.

The bottom line is that Marvin is doing a fantastic job of being our #3 scorer. He is a year younger than Smoove and has been in the league a year less and he shouldn't be expected to outperform Smoove and honestly I don't believe he can when they are both playing at the top of their games. The problem is that while Marvin almost never has a great game he almost never has a bad game either but the same cannot be said of Smoove or JJ. If either (or can you imagine both) of them scored at or near their season average in points with a 40% or better shooting percentage 90% of the time we would be twice the team that we are now.

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Marvin has shot less than 40% FG in 4 games this year, Smoove in 10 games, JJ in 11 games.

But go deeper.

While he's shot less than 40% FG in 10 games, Smoove's also shot less than 30% FG in 8 of those 10 games. And less than 25% FG in 6 of those games.

When you look at JJ, he's shot less than 30% in 3 out of those 11 games. JJ's sub 40% games are usually games in which he's shooting just under 40% . . like around 37 - 38%. Of the 11 games in which he shot under 40%, 6 of those games have been in that 37% - 39% shooting range. That would roughly be one of those 8 - 21 FG games that he's had on occasion this year.

Marvin has only done it one time . . a 1 - 5 FG game vs Chicago.

Now go the other way.

Marvin has shot 50% FG or better in 10 games, Smoove in 9 games, JJ in 4 games.

But go deeper here as well.

When you talk about having one of those 60% + shooting games, Marvin has done it 4 times, Smoove twice, and JJ once.

CONCLUSION:

Marvin is the most consistent shooter on the team, and shooting well on most nights. JJ is below what he ususally is, and is slightly below average when you look at the entire league. Smoove is either great, or horrible, but takes the same number of shots regardless of how hot or cold he is.

For Smoove, if he was a CONSISTENT 40% FG shooter, instead of doing like Arenas does, and have three horrible games to offset the two great games he had, we would be much better off as a team.

So who's numbers drop off the most when we win, compared to when we lose?

Marvin in wins

15.9 ppg . . 6.4 rebs . . 49.6% FG . . 70.2% FT . . 1.3 TOs

Marvin in losses

15.6 ppg . . 5.1 rebs . . 47.7% FG . . 81.6% FT . . 1.3 TOs

So when you look at Marvin, his numbers are pretty much constant across the board, with the exception of rebounding and free throw shooting. The 5 rebounds in losses is way too low, because we're usually losing the game because we're not hitting the boards.

JJ in wins

22.2 ppg . . 4.8 rebs . . 5.4 asst . . 42.3% FG . . 29.4% 3FG . . 82.8% FT . . 3.3 TOs

JJ in losses

19.8 ppg . . 3.3 rebs . . 4.9 asst . . 39.2% FG . . 32.4% 3FG . . 85.7% FT . . 2.2 TOs

JJ's numbers are a little better in wins, than losses. Also what is not shown here, is that JJ's FTA's are up in wins ( 6.4 fta ) compared to when we lose ( 3.5 fta ). But the fact that even when we win, he's likely to shoot just 42%, is a big problem.

Josh Smith in wins

19.7 ppg . . 8.8 rebs . . 4.3 asst . . 44.4% FG . . 78.5% FT . . 2.5 stls . . 4.0 blks . . 3.3 TOs

Josh Smith in losses

15.5 ppg . . 6.8 rebs . . 2.8 asst . . 35.1% FG . . 73.4% FT . . 1.5 stls . . 2.8 blks . . 3.7 TOs

The blocks and steals are great, which means he's still giving out effort. The rebounding is below where it should be, especially in losses. But it's the FG% that sticks out like a sore thumb with Josh.

In wins, he's a good to great player to have for us. I'd love for him to be shooting 47% FG, but I'd definitely take 44% shooting and almost 9 rebounds from him. Instead, he's at 35% and 7 boards. That's 9% FG differece. Pretty significant.

That's the feast or famine type shooting I'm talking about. When you look at Gilbert Arenas last year, his shooting was the same way, except his FG% difference was even worse in losses. I think Arenas was like 13% lower of a shooter in losses, compared to wins.

So it's not Marvin. If Marvin increased his scoring, he's going to have to take shots away from Smoove or JJ, which might not be a bad thing.

But the real problem here is JJ not being his normal self, and Smoove being extremely schizophrenic as an offensive player. With Smoove, I'll split the difference. Just be consistent like Marvin, and give us 18 ppg . . 8 rebs . . and shoot 43% FG.

Trade in your 11 - 19 FG games and your 4 - 15 FG games . . for a consistent 8 - 18 FG game.

JJ needs to be back up around the 45% FG range every night. The 9 - 20 FG performance is something we need to see more, if Smoove and the others continue to struggle from the field.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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The Hawks look terrible against teams that play solid defense.

The Hawks look pretty good against teams that try to score alot of points.

It seems as if either Woodson or Knight would have figured it out by now.

I predict a W tonight.

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Right on the money teke. And the teams that try to score a lot of points, aren't usually good defensive teams.

So if you use that formula, and you see who the Hawks have coming up, it should go:

Bobcats - win

Jazz - loss

Miami - toss-up, probably win though

@ Washington - road win ( especially with Daniels out 2 - 4 weeks )

Indy - win, tougher game that most expect though, much tougher

@ Dallas - surely not, even with them struggling a bit . . loss

@ Cleveland - hmmm .. I'll say loss, but you never know

@ Indy - road win, although that could easily be a loss

Translation: expect more stree and discomfort from the Hawks, but don't expect us to slip out of the running. But as everybody knows, you can't accurately predict how this team will play on a nightly basis.

[gsuteke]

Well I'm certainly not worrying about the sky falling on the Hawks season right now.

I just see some holes. Hopefully BK or Woody will find a way to bridge the gap for now.

I have as much confidence in those two as I do in Bobby Petrino.

P.S. I am not a proponent of pushing the panic button. I am a proponent of making the necessary adjustments.

[bumpyphish1]

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Very few "superstars" are superstars a quarter into their 3rd seasons.

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This is BS right??

First, I think Marvin and Superstar should not be used in the same paragraph... Maybe even thread.

Second. your statement is blatanly wrong.

You can't find one "superstar" who wasn't a superstar by his 3rd year... Especially not given the playing time that Marvin has been given.

Last night, late into the game, the Pistons announcers showed our big three. And Marvin was at his average... and didn't score after that.

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Diesel, quit being a douche bag, and an ignorant one at that.

First off, way to take my quotation out of context. Nice editing, dipshit. What I said was: "Very few "superstars" are superstars a quarter into their 3rd seasons. Marv is progressing nicely, imo. Not saying he will ever be a "superstar" but not saying he won't either. " I said he might not ever be one. Your answer certainly didn't imply that.

Secondly, here's the first "superstar" that came to mind: Kobe Bryant. His year three stats? Here: (in 38 minutes per game compared to Marv's 35 his year)

19.9 PPG

5.3 Reb

3.8 Ass

1.4 Stls

Hmm...So, Diesel, you mean to tell me these are "superstar" stats? Do want to continue to embarrass yourself by making such a statement? Keep in mind, this is in 3 min more per game thann Marvin currently gets which is good for another 1-1.5 PPG for Marv to account for the diff in minutes. Why do you make such condescending and ignorant statements? Apparently, having the most posts means squat because you prove time and again you have no clue. How is that projection of Horford turning out for you, buddy? Thanks for wasting my time you big dumb prick.