Is our depth necessarily a good thing?

[BHayley]

1) ZaZa and Shelden are nothing less than garbage. At least Shelden sometimes can play well, but ZaZa is possibly looking worse this year than any other player I've EVER seen on this team. WTF is up with him taking 5 shots in what seemed like 20 seconds? Does this guy think he's our go-to man?

2) We need a legitimate rugged 7-footer, as the Cavs played Volleyball on the offensive glass

3) We have so many players in our rotation that it's hard to pinpoint players who have momentum. We have T.Lue getting more minutes than Acie when Acie is supposed to be maturing (In other words, the return of Lue will interfere with Law's growth), Lorenzen should have been getting more minutes, and West didn't play at all.

I'm much more content with playing our starting 5, Wright, Mario, Childress, and Acie. Forget ZaZa and Shelden.

[Plastic Man]

It seems, other than Chillz, our bench doesn't know their role when they get in the game. I KNOW Salim and Shelden are much better than they are playing. Heck even Zaza was considered a bargain not long ago.

I would like to see what actually goes on during practice. I don't know what Woody tells them but it seems like he gives them 5-10 minutes in the game to prove they belong there. Or maybe they ignore Woody and do their own thing, resulting in doghouse minutes.

[Peoriabird]

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It seems, other than Chillz, our bench doesn't know their role when they get in the game. I KNOW Salim and Shelden are much better than they are playing. Heck even Zaza was considered a bargain not long ago.

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Not too long ago other players were struggling and we gave them a chance to get their game together. Lets show the same kind of patience with Zaza and Shelden! I don't know about Salim though.

[TheTruth]

In response to the original poster, as we all know, depth is a wonderful thing. However, depth does little good if:

1) They do not know their role

2) They come in and do more harm than good

3) They are not used correctly to maximize their talents

Here lies one of the main issues with Woodson. I get the feeling that he is failing miserably on #3 and because of #1, #2 starts occurring.

Many of us grew concerned when we heard "The Closer" was coming back from injury (If I hear Smitty call him that one more time, I swear, I'm gonna shoot myself. The only thing he does is close out the shot clock to damn near zero with his incessant pounding of the ball). Anyway, I digressed, we wondered if Woodson would be able to effectively manage his players with a near-full bench at his disposal.

So, what happened? Lorenzen Wright!!! got too many minutes, Al Horford was taken out the game for minutes at a time for no apparent reason, West was nowhere to be seen, T Lue played WAY too many minutes, Acie Law only got 8 minutes coming off a relatively good game at Dallas, Pachulia...dont get me started, and thus it continues...

In response to your recent post PB, I agree to a degree about giving people a chance. However, give them a chance as long as they show flashes. Yes, Shelden should get a break because, although inconsistent, can still bang inside and get near double-double numbers on great days. Other times, you wonder why he is even in the game. At least those are flashes. Same for Salim. He can shoot the hell out the rock one game and go ice cold the next (a product of inconsistent PT more than anything imo--plus, it's not like he gets a chance to take many FGs either). However, I disagree when it comes to Zaza. He has proven time and time again that he DOES NOT belong on the court. Someone mentioned that he used to be a bargain. Something is only a bargain when you are paying below market value for something that can provide acceptable service. Zaza's pay is below most other bigs, but his service is simply and utterly unacceptable. A big is supposed to rebound and play defense--he consistently does not do the former and gets a boost of the latter due to offensive rebounds of his poor missed shots. Problem is, he did this last year (along with an alarming rate of turnovers). I have said it before and will say it again regarding the bench:

1) Give Shelden Zaza's minutes and either play Solomon or ship him off to the D League. Dude doesnt play and needs to get a chance somewhere to develop since Woodson apparently refuses to play him.

2) Don't put Lue in there unless you just have NO OTHER choice

3) Give Salim like 5-10 mins near every game instead of letting him ride the pine 4 games out of 5. He will likely shoot better if he gets more consistent PT. He wasnt regarded as the best shooter in his draft for no reason...

And most importantly

4) KNOW YOUR ROLE! Woodson needs to make sure he communicates the role each player plays. For players to play their best, they must know what their specific role is.

[Peoriabird]

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1) Give Shelden Zaza's minutes and either play Solomon or ship him off to the D League. Dude doesnt play and needs to get a chance somewhere to develop since Woodson apparently refuses to play him.

2) Don't put Lue in there unless you just have NO OTHER choice

3) Give Salim like 5-10 mins near every game instead of letting him ride the pine 4 games out of 5. He will likely shoot better if he gets more consistent PT. He wasnt regarded as the best shooter in his draft for no reason...

And most importantly

4) KNOW YOUR ROLE! Woodson needs to make sure he communicates the role each player plays. For players to play their best, they must know what their specific role is.

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Here is the thing...Zaza had some very good games last year and some games he looked like the best player on the court. Shelden had some very good games this year especially the Orlando game. Lue had some very big games last year. At the beginning of the season last year, he was definitely our second scorer. Salim on the other hand doesn't play team basketball. His shot has been awful this year and every time he gets a chance to play, he looks terrible. His +/- has to be near the bottom on the team.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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In response to the original poster, as we all know, depth is a wonderful thing. However, depth does little good if:

1) They do not know their role

2) They come in and do more harm than good

3) They are not used correctly to maximize their talents

Here lies one of the main issues with Woodson. I get the feeling that he is failing miserably on #3 and because of #1, #2 starts occurring.

Many of us grew concerned when we heard "The Closer" was coming back from injury (If I hear Smitty call him that one more time, I swear, I'm gonna shoot myself. The only thing he does is close out the shot clock to damn near zero with his incessant pounding of the ball). Anyway, I digressed, we wondered if Woodson would be able to effectively manage his players with a near-full bench at his disposal.

So, what happened? Lorenzen Wright!!! got too many minutes, Al Horford was taken out the game for minutes at a time for no apparent reason, West was nowhere to be seen, T Lue played WAY too many minutes, Acie Law only got 8 minutes coming off a relatively good game at Dallas, Pachulia...dont get me started, and thus it continues...

In response to your recent post PB, I agree to a degree about giving people a chance. However, give them a chance as long as they show flashes. Yes, Shelden should get a break because, although inconsistent, can still bang inside and get near double-double numbers on great days. Other times, you wonder why he is even in the game. At least those are flashes. Same for Salim. He can shoot the hell out the rock one game and go ice cold the next (a product of inconsistent PT more than anything imo--plus, it's not like he gets a chance to take many FGs either). However, I disagree when it comes to Zaza. He has proven time and time again that he DOES NOT belong on the court. Someone mentioned that he used to be a bargain. Something is only a bargain when you are paying below market value for something that can provide acceptable service. Zaza's pay is below most other bigs, but his service is simply and utterly unacceptable. A big is supposed to rebound and play defense--he consistently does not do the former and gets a boost of the latter due to offensive rebounds of his poor missed shots. Problem is, he did this last year (along with an alarming rate of turnovers). I have said it before and will say it again regarding the bench:

1) Give Shelden Zaza's minutes and either play Solomon or ship him off to the D League. Dude doesnt play and needs to get a chance somewhere to develop since Woodson apparently refuses to play him.

2) Don't put Lue in there unless you just have NO OTHER choice

3) Give Salim like 5-10 mins near every game instead of letting him ride the pine 4 games out of 5. He will likely shoot better if he gets more consistent PT. He wasnt regarded as the best shooter in his draft for no reason...

And most importantly

4) KNOW YOUR ROLE! Woodson needs to make sure he communicates the role each player plays. For players to play their best, they must know what their specific role is.

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These players know their role. The coach defines their roles. It's just that the players, other than Childress, are inconsistent as hell.

Law is a rookie, but he still should be playing a little better than what he is right now, especially scoring the basketball. With the 2nd unit, I think Woody would love for him to be one of the main scoring options. But Acie just isn't finishing when he gets to the rim. Skill-wise, he's definitely our best PG. But he's too inconsistent for Woody to trust right now.

I root for Salim, but he should not play before Lue. At some point, you have to perform on the court. There are plenty of players in this league that are in the same positon as Salim, and some of them are able to come right in and contribute. If your designated hired gun off the bench, steps into a game and goes 1 - 5 FG in 7 minutes, that's not good.

Same goes with Shelden. A guy like a Jason Maxiell off our bench would be a godsend forthe Hawks. Even if he's not scoring, you know Jason is going to be active as hell. I can't say the same about Shelden. I was all for the Hawks taking Shelden over Roy because of his reputation as a defender and rebounder in college. So if that's what you're known for, you should be able to do it on a nightly basis. And he just doesn't do it, point blank.

Zaza represents one of the few big bodies on this team. But he doesn't use his body to his advantage on either end of the floor. The fact that Zaza played 5 or so minutes last night, probably means that Woody is about to give up on him. Who would've thought that Zaza would regress so much?

Which brings us to Lorenzen. It's amazing to believe that he could actually be back ahead of Zaza on the depth chart. But he just might be. Lorenzen isn't going to rebound, block shots, or score. What he will do, is play positon defense well enough to possibly enable one of our forwards to grab a rebound off a missed shot. But the fact that he doesn't rebound or score or block shots, makes him a liability as well.

Solomon Jones, in my opinion, is probably getting dominated in practice by the "bigs". If he had shown any indication that he could contribute, then he'd be playing. If this is the case, he probably shouldn't play either. Yes, he's athletic and can block a shot from the weak side, but he's a hatchet and pretty much a liability offensively. And his other problem is that you can't play him at center. He has to play PF. You don't take minutes away from Horford, Smoove, or even Marvin when he plays the 4, just to get Solo on the floor.

As for Lue and AJ, always remember this about them . . . they are vets that know how to play. Their main problem is that they don't have the physical skills to play consistently on a nightly basis. Both are slower than what they ued to be, making them a liability on defense, and turning them into spot-up shooters on offense. But the one thing that both have going for them, is that Woody trusts them, no matter how much the fan base hates that he does.

Mario West, other than Chill, is maybe the only consistent bench performer we have. His sole role is to defend and he does that pretty well. His problem is that he's behind JJ and Chill on the depth chart. Unless one of them are hurt, it's hard to even justify him playing spot minutes. You almost have to play Mario, when JJ plays the point or plays the 3.

I'll end with this. Woody can't wait on players. He's looking for a new deal as well. He's going to play the players that he trusts, until he can absolutely not trust them anymore. AJ, Chill, Lue, and for maybe a little while longer, Zaza, are going to get the benefit of the doubt for now.

Woody needs solid contributions from the bench right now. We can't do like Phoenix, and go 7 deep, not right now. We'll wear our starters out if we did. Players have to step up, period.

Woody would love to go with Chill, Law and Zaza off the bench, with Lue being the hired gun. If not Zaza, then Shelden. But he needs 8 - 9 guys he can trust on nightly basis.

[TroyMcClure]

Excellent post, truth! Welcome to the board, btw.

I agree with virtually everything you've said. Northcyde is wrong. They don't know their roles and because of that #2 on your list happens.

Players with undefined roles:

Shelden, Zaza, Salim, Smoove, Law, AJ(till Lue was hurt)

That's six players with totally undefined roles. You never know if Smoove is going to play pf or stand on the wing jacking 3's or trying to lead the break instead of giving it up and filling a lane.

Shelden never knows when he's going to play. Same for Zaza, Salim and Law.

I'm so tired of saying this, but we have the worst coach in the league. The worst one that I've ever seen personally. None of this is going to change while he is here. It's just that simple. We may make the playoffs, but so what? There is no foundation to this group of players. We need a legitimate coaching staff in the worst way. If we had one, these problems we speak of wouldn't be there.

[coachx]

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1) Give Shelden Zaza's minutes and either play Solomon or ship him off to the D League. Dude doesnt play and needs to get a chance somewhere to develop since Woodson apparently refuses to play him.

2) Don't put Lue in there unless you just have NO OTHER choice

3) Give Salim like 5-10 mins near every game instead of letting him ride the pine 4 games out of 5. He will likely shoot better if he gets more consistent PT. He wasnt regarded as the best shooter in his draft for no reason...

And most importantly

4) KNOW YOUR ROLE! Woodson needs to make sure he communicates the role each player plays. For players to play their best, they must know what their specific role is.

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Here is the thing...Zaza had some very good games last year and some games he looked like the best player on the court.

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I am in 100% agreement with THETRUTH.

The other guy who kisses ZaZa's butt must be blind or a straight from Russia giving such blind support for ZaZa.

ZaZa has never and will never look like the best player on any basketball court any where in the world. You see guys who would ball on ZaZa at the local YMCA.

[AHF]

I am not sure if it is due to injury or what but this is definitely Zaza's worst season with the Hawks so far. I am not ready to throw him under the bus.

On the subject of this thread, I believe that our injuries were a blessing in disguise for Woodson since it allowed/forced him to set a consistent and predictable rotation. In that sense, our full depth can lead to some problems (although other games it will definitely be good to have guys like Lue back in action - particularly if Law or AJ go down with an injury).

[coachx]

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I am not sure if it is due to injury or what but this is definitely Zaza's worst season with the Hawks so far. I am not ready to throw him under the bus.

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ZaZa got sympathy calls on both ends of the floor the last 2 seasons that he no longer gets.

The Hawks as a team and especially ZaZa were abused night in and night out the last 2 seasons in the paint. We were out rebounded and our points in the paint were so bad that Refs bailed ZaZa out with foul shots when he made out of control shot attempts or could not finish a lay up after a miniscule amount of contact. He got these calls when we were down by 15 points every night but not in close games that are heavily contested which we find ourselves in this year. Now the refs see Horford finishing after contact so when ZaZa come is and flails his arms at the slightest touch it is even more evident ZaZa is simply acting and has no skill.

Same thing on defense. We got scored on so much in the paint the last few years it is only human nature to blow a few whistles on a few of ZaZa's flops. He no longer gets these flop calls b/c the refs have been watching Horford take the same shoves ZaZa flops to once he enters the game.

The refs as a whole seem to be making an effort to call less fouls and "acting fouls." This realy hurts guys like ZaZa who depend on bail out calls from referees.

I bet ZaZa has the lowest FG% in the paint of any center in the league over the last 3 seasons. Couple that with the fact he can't play defense or rebound anything other then his own missed shots and you see how worthless he is to a team the expects to play over .500 basketball.

[exodus]

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WTF is up with him taking 5 shots in what seemed like 20 seconds?

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LOL yeah that was scary. I didn't like him last year and i can't stand him now. I would trade him for a meatlovers pizza.

[AHF]

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I am not sure if it is due to injury or what but this is definitely Zaza's worst season with the Hawks so far. I am not ready to throw him under the bus.

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ZaZa got sympathy calls on both ends of the floor the last 2 seasons that he no longer gets.

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Zaza has never been and will never be a world beater but his decline this year is more than just about not getting the flops.

His FG% is down .106 or over 20% from last year, his turnover rate is up 33% over last year, and his assist rate is down more than 50% from what it was last year.

He just is not playing anywhere near as well.