Horf Value with Hawks fans.

[Diesel]

I've been checking the trade boards and Horf has value everywhere.... Except with Hawks fans. Sure, we think he's good but he's not a must keep in the starting lineup nor has he earned the label (with all Hawksqauwkers) as untradable.

Really, since December, his value amoung Squawkers has decreased... For at one point, he was the best prospect on the team. Now, he's just another guy. What has happened?

Do you believe that Horf is playing more tentatively after what Happened with TJ Ford??

I think somebody out to sit down with Horf and explain to him that Ford is the "Mr. Glass" of basketball.

Moreover, I see Horf as PF of the future.

I guess that makes it hard for those of you who want to say that Smoove is a PF.

But this team can't go on with Horf as C. I mean, we will win a few but we will continue to be outrebounded by bigger stronger Centers.

I'm hoping that BK can make a deal and bring in Dalembert without giving up a core player!!

For us, having Dalembert at C and Horf at PF would be a sweet fix.

[frosgrim]

Quote:

---

I've been checking the trade boards and Horf has value everywhere.... Except with Hawks fans. Sure, we think he's good but he's not a must keep in the starting lineup nor has he earned the label (with all Hawksqauwkers) as untradable.

Really, since December, his value amoung Squawkers has decreased... For at one point, he was the best prospect on the team. Now, he's just another guy. What has happened?

Do you believe that Horf is playing more tentatively after what Happened with TJ Ford??

I think somebody out to sit down with Horf and explain to him that Ford is the "Mr. Glass" of basketball.

Moreover, I see Horf as PF of the future.

I guess that makes it hard for those of you who want to say that Smoove is a PF.

But this team can't go on with Horf as C. I mean, we will win a few but we will continue to be outrebounded by bigger stronger Centers.

I'm hoping that BK can make a deal and bring in Dalembert without giving up a core player!!

For us, having Dalembert at C and Horf at PF would be a sweet fix.

---

For me Horford is untouchable. The kid has all the right skills. His fundamentals are sound and his head is in the right place. I agree that the Ford situation has made him less agressive, esp. in defending the fast break. In time, he'll get over that.

Another thing that everyone needs to keep in mind, is that the NBA rookies have just played a full season of college games. They are hitting their conditioning and mental wall. The NBA is grind and players have to learn how to deal with. That Horford is not playing as energetically as he did early in the season, is of no surprise.

I do agree that Horford is much better suited as a PF than a C. I thought he could be an effective C in the NBA, but it is very clear now that Horford is a PF.

As far as a trade, my preference is for Gasol as I think he brings much more to the table than Dally. Gasol makes the half-court offense work, Dally doesn't improve the offense at all. Dally, however, does improve the team rebounding and defense. It will be interesting to see if BK actually can make a move...

[Diesel]

I think that definitely Gasol is a better Big than Dally... However, Gasol will cost us at least one core player.

But we may be able to get Dally with expiring contracts.

The fact that he fixes our defense and allows us to go back to playing natural positions means that we may be able to be a team that is once again very hard to beat. Offense really isn't our problem. Rebounding is.

[macdaddy]

Horford is our Dwight Howard. Horford's game is better than Howard's first year, but Horford just isn't as big. I'm disappointed we aren't running more (or any) post plays for Horford as I think he could develop into a force there. Plus, he runs the floor like a 3 and can knock down a 15 footer.

I hate to make everything about Woody but this offense just isn't geared toward involving the bigs. They are just supposed to rebound and set high picks.

To me the problem with running a front line of Smoove/Horford/C is our outside shooting gets even worse than it is now. Maybe if we posted up a little more that'd be ok.

[AHF]

Horford is definitely not "just another guy" in my book. He, Josh Smith and JJ are the three guys I consider to be the most valuable players on the team. He is essential to the success of the 2007-08 Hawks and should be better in the next few years - especially offensively.

[coachx]

I think everyone respecs Horford's value.

You never see ANYONE post a lets trade Al Horford thread.

BUT

We do see lets trade JJ, Marvin & Smoove threads ALL the time.

[LongTimeHawksFan]

Here's an idea. How about Smoove for Dalembert and Andre Miller. That would give us a point guard and a center finally. Horford could be the PF and still have Marvin at SF. I know nobody wants to give up Smoove but lets face it there are just too many forwards on the team. Zaza sucks and Lorenzen is old and has no offense whatsoever. And Horford isn't tall enough to take on 7 footers. Dalembert would give us the shotblocking that we lose from Smith and more rebounding. I'm sure not everyone would agree but I think it makes alot of sense. Miller might be kind of old but is still really good and Dalembert is young, so that would sure up the center position for a long time.

[DrReality]

I think Horf's value will climb for years to come. He has all the physical and intangible skills we could want. If he had a decent center to play next to him . . . . he could be unstoppable.

[coachx]

Quote:

---

I think Horf's value will climb for years to come. He has all the physical and intangible skills we could want. If he had a decent center to play next to him . . . . he could be unstoppable.

---

I agree. Smith, Horford, Center = one hell of a 3 headed monster in the post.

[JackB1]

Quote:

---

I've been checking the trade boards and Horf has value everywhere.... Except with Hawks fans. Sure, we think he's good but he's not a must keep in the starting lineup nor has he earned the label (with all Hawksqauwkers) as untradable.

Really, since December, his value amoung Squawkers has decreased... For at one point, he was the best prospect on the team. Now, he's just another guy. What has happened?

---

Diesel, I don't know where you get this stuff from? How did you determine that Horford's value has gone down among people on this board? I don't know what you are smoking, but I want some. Horford has continued to improve every week. He grabbed like 17 rebounds or something a week or so ago...a new record for rookies this year. I shudder to think where the Hawks would be without him this year. Imagine Zaza or Sheldon getting 40 mins per game. You think we are getting outrebounded now? In my mind, Horford's value has continued to increase every week and yes, he is not an ideal #5 at 6'9", but he is clearly out best Center right now. He has not been embarrassed by anyone out there...even Shaq.

p.s. I can't wait until the trade deadline passes so we don't have to listen to your nonsense trade proposals day after day.

[JackB1]

If we got a quality center and moved Horf to #4, then clearly we have a problem with Smith and Marvin at the #3. Out of those 2, I would keep Smith, but that would leave us without a good spot up shooter. I don't think we can trade Marvin unless we also acquire a outside shooting threat in a PG.

[cordele]

why do we keep talking about replacing smooth with al at the 4 spot. smooth is one of the top power forwards in the nba. many think he should be a allstar this year. it is not his play as a small forward. nobody at orlando or with the sun is calling for there under seven foot center to be move to the 4 spot. royal ivey got 8 rebounds the other day not because al needs to play power forward but be cause our jumps shot were not falling and causing long rebounds.al is adv. close to 10 rebounds,smooth close to 9 and if you watch al he and smoth can score in the post when given the ball. there are only stiffs at center over 7 ft. he will outplay them for years to come.

[thesheedera]

I haven't been around as much lately but I don't see anyone getting down on Horford, other than the minority of posters who were skeptical to begin with or just jump from hating one player to another.

Personally I rank our team like this: 10 being untradeable, 1 being worthless. And this is gut-reaction, not much thought put into it.

8.5 - JJ - almost untouchable but for a All NBA kind of guy he's on the block

8 - Horford & Smith - only trade for absolute studs, difficult to upgrade on what they bring and what they can become

7.5 - Marvin & Law - you could more easily upgrade on these guys, but they can also be important pieces on a championship type team, either as the role playing starter or the 6th man who gets starter minutes. Law will slip to 7 or below if by the end of the season he doesn't make more of an impact and start to take control of the team.

Diesel Disclaimer: I suggested Marvin as a "role player" only when qualified by a phrase like "on a championship type team"

7 - Childress - I just can't picture him ever being a starter on a championship level team, so he's just a notch below Marvin and Law, but he's certainly the kind of guy I can see as a 6th man for that kind of team

6 - Mario, AJ & Solomon - Mario and Solomon for their upside at a low cost and AJ for his low cost vet presence. Mario and Sol more valuable long term, AJ more valuable short tearm as we bridge the gap with the future. These guys are bench depth on a championship level team.

5 - Lue, Salim, Shelden - They serve a purpose, but it's a purpose that you can serve easily with dozens of players that are easy to acquire. I still hold hope for Shelden (and to some degree Salim) proving to be more valuable than this, but so far it isn't looking pretty. In the right place I think they can be pretty good. Lue's another short term gap-bridger. His short term value is probably a 6, while his long term value's sub-4.

3 - Zaza - he's pretty tall - this kills me because I imagined him as an up and coming center, someone that would become like Chris Kaman one day - a surprise to all, a dependable big man than can score when needed, and does everything else just well enough to help more than he hurts. Hopefully the guy that shpwed promise in the past is just having an awful injury riddled season. Hopefully he's not just a international player with a BS age who actually peaked last season.

1 - Speedy - who?

[thesheedera]

Quote:

---

why do we keep talking about replacing smooth with al at the 4 spot. smooth is one of the top power forwards in the nba. many think he should be a allstar this year. it is not his play as a small forward.

---

If you can get a REAL center it wouldn't hurt the team AT ALL to move Horford to his natural NBA position at the 4.

If you keep Marvin and Smith, either

1 - Marvin comes off the bench and can spell either Josh or Al. If he spells Josh, he plays SF with Al at the 4. If he spells Al, Josh slides to the 4, but Marvin and Josh play as they have been - a two forward tandem.

2 - Josh comes off the bench and can spell weither one, easily sliding into either position.

If you keep Childress and Smith, the same can basically happen but he's less help defending a team with two strong post players at forward.

Either a three forward rotation of Al, Josh and Marvin or Al, Josh and Childress would be incredible alongside a legit center. There are NO problems with those scenarios - at all.

While Josh isn't as consistent with the J as Marvin is, you don't HAVE to have a jumpshooter at SF. You can have a slasher or a guy that posts other SFs up.

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

why do we keep talking about replacing smooth with al at the 4 spot. smooth is one of the top power forwards in the nba. many think he should be a allstar this year. it is not his play as a small forward.

---

If you can get a REAL center it wouldn't hurt the team AT ALL to move Horford to his natural NBA position at the 4.

If you keep Marvin and Smith, either

1 - Marvin comes off the bench and can spell either Josh or Al. If he spells Josh, he plays SF with Al at the 4. If he spells Al, Josh slides to the 4, but Marvin and Josh play as they have been - a two forward tandem.

2 - Josh comes off the bench and can spell weither one, easily sliding into either position.

If you keep Childress and Smith, the same can basically happen but he's less help defending a team with two strong post players at forward.

Either a three forward rotation of Al, Josh and Marvin or Al, Josh and Childress would be incredible alongside a legit center. There are NO problems with those scenarios - at all.

While Josh isn't as consistent with the J as Marvin is, you don't HAVE to have a jumpshooter at SF. You can have a slasher or a guy that posts other SFs up.

For once... We agree!!!

I think what people have to realize is that Josh Smith can be almost allstar at the Sf just as easily as he could at the "PF". (He's really being a slasher Sf people)... We use those positions interchangably...

I think that we put either Marvin or Smoove on the bench based on matchup. and we'd have a strong bench with Law, Chillz, Marvin, Solo, and Shelden.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

why do we keep talking about replacing smooth with al at the 4 spot. smooth is one of the top power forwards in the nba. many think he should be a allstar this year. it is not his play as a small forward.

---

If you can get a REAL center it wouldn't hurt the team AT ALL to move Horford to his natural NBA position at the 4.

If you keep Marvin and Smith, either

1 - Marvin comes off the bench and can spell either Josh or Al. If he spells Josh, he plays SF with Al at the 4. If he spells Al, Josh slides to the 4, but Marvin and Josh play as they have been - a two forward tandem.

2 - Josh comes off the bench and can spell weither one, easily sliding into either position.

If you keep Childress and Smith, the same can basically happen but he's less help defending a team with two strong post players at forward.

Either a three forward rotation of Al, Josh and Marvin or Al, Josh and Childress would be incredible alongside a legit center. There are NO problems with those scenarios - at all.

While Josh isn't as consistent with the J as Marvin is, you don't HAVE to have a jumpshooter at SF. You can have a slasher or a guy that posts other SFs up.

For once... We agree!!!

I think what people have to realize is that Josh Smith can be almost allstar at the Sf just as easily as he could at the "PF". (He's really being a slasher Sf people)... We use those positions interchangably...

---

While I don't agree that Josh Smith fits as naturally at SF as PF on either end of the floor, offensively having JS at SF with a big center and Horford causes problems that JS at PF doesn't. Specifically, there is room on the floor for Horford in the post and Josh Smith slashing but if you put Chris Kaman or someone at C and then had Horford in the post and had Josh Smith trying to slash there would not be a very good balance or enough room in the post for all those guys. If Josh's jumper continues to improve this may not be a problem but he is a long way away from being someone who should rely on their jumper outside of the post to spread the spacing on the floor.

(Some of my issues with JS at SF is that he won't be able to drive on SFs like he does on PFs and that his perimeter defense is not as effective as his post defense, IMO.)

[coachx]

quote]

While I don't agree that Josh Smith fits as naturally at SF as PF on either end of the floor, offensively having JS at SF with a big center and Horford causes problems that JS at PF doesn't. Specifically, there is room on the floor for Horford in the post and Josh Smith slashing but if you put Chris Kaman or someone at C and then had Horford in the post and had Josh Smith trying to slash there would not be a very good balance or enough room in the post for all those guys. If Josh's jumper continues to improve this may not be a problem but he is a long way away from being someone who should rely on their jumper outside of the post to spread the spacing on the floor.

(Some of my issues with JS at SF is that he won't be able to drive on SFs like he does on PFs and that his perimeter defense is not as effective as his post defense, IMO.)

---

I agree that the chemistry would not work with a line up of:

Smith SF

Horford PF

Dalembert C

Marvin's shooting at SF is essential (especially unitl a PG starts knocking down shots).

That is why you bring Horford off the bench (under this pipe dream scenero.) (BTW, that is a luxury and not a problem). This is how the minutes break down:

Dalembert = 32 mpg at center

Horford = 16 mpg at C / 16 mpg at PF

Smith = 32 mpg at PF

Marvin = 35 MPG at SF

Chills = 13 mpg at SF / 10 mpg at SG

JJ = 38 = at SG

Law = 24 = at PG

AJ = 24 = at PG

Who cares who starts, its a solid 8 man rotation....point is we have quality talent on the court every second of every game (if you believe in Law like I do).

Teams without a Kobe, Wade, or Lebron need quality depth to be championship caliber.

[frosgrim]

I agree AHF, Smith at SF with legit post players at PF and C really unbalances a team that is already struggling from the outside. Hence, I prefer Marvin at SF due to his jumper that is getting better every year. Marvin also can drive, and his ball handling is so much better than Smith's.

From an offensive side: Marvin, Horford, Gasol is about as pure basketball as you can get. Combine them with JJ's set shot and Law's (hopeful) ability to drive and dish, then the Hawks have a very solid offense. Defensively the above rotation is not great, but not horrible either. Gasol can rebound, but he is not a great one on one defender. Horford can handle the PFs in the NBA now. In a year or two, he is going to be a force.

I am not for trading Smith per se, but if trading him brings the Hawks an all-star post player, then it has to be considered.

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

I agree AHF, Smith at SF with legit post players at PF and C really unbalances a team that is already struggling from the outside. Hence, I prefer Marvin at SF due to his jumper that is getting better every year. Marvin also can drive, and his ball handling is so much better than Smith's.

From an offensive side: Marvin, Horford, Gasol is about as pure basketball as you can get. Combine them with JJ's set shot and Law's (hopeful) ability to drive and dish, then the Hawks have a very solid offense. Defensively the above rotation is not great, but not horrible either. Gasol can rebound, but he is not a great one on one defender. Horford can handle the PFs in the NBA now. In a year or two, he is going to be a force.

I am not for trading Smith per se, but if trading him brings the Hawks an all-star post player, then it has to be considered.

What is it that you guys are smoking???

If Smoove played the role of Slasher/Sf and we actually had two good Post players, with our defense, we would be a devastating team. Let's examine this one moment... The Hawks today... Marvin is shooting 48.5%, Smoove is shooting 43.6%. That's a big difference however, Smoove is more of a scoring threat than Marvin. Moreover, if we have a post game, our PG/SG will automatically get more open Looks.

Do you know what teams do to us...

They Zone up on us. They do it because they know that we have nobody in the post who can effectively score and it will force us to shoot over them. You guys say that Marvin is a great Sf for that case... Actually, Marvin is most effected by the zone defense. That's when/why he disappears. He plays best, when he can lose his man on defense and get a wide open look. Because MARVIN doesn't shoot three point shots. ON the season, he has only attempted 6 3 pters... How is that going to beat a zone.

We get another big and this is what happens:

1. We can punch it inside.

2. We will get more offensive boards.

3. We can run pick and rolls like the old INDY teams used to do and free up our shooters.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Glad to see you come around a little to Horford, seeing how you didn't believe before the season started, that he could average close to a double-double playing center.

Part of the reason why Horford isn't scoring even more, is because he isn't having plays called for him in the offense. He also needs to refine some of his post moves as well.

Horford has come in, and done exactly what he needed to do for this team. He's the most fundamentally sound player on the team. I'm higher on him now, than I was before the season started.

As far as Dalembett goes, who is he really stopping on the defensive end? He's definitely a good shot blocker, but is he really slowing down anybody in the paint, if he doesn't block a shot? And how good is his offense? He scores, but is it because of a decent post game, or is it because he plays with a good passing PG ( Miller ) and a good passing 2-guard ( Iggy ).

I need to check to see how many of his points come via assists. For the price, Dalembert is definitely overpaid. Horford would have to develop into a Boozer-like PF, if we acquired Dalembert.