Ball Players vs. Athletes

[AnakinJoe]

Toronto has a bunch of ball players. Guys who have the basic fundamentals of being able to dribble, pass and shoot.

Our guys seem to struggle dribbling from point A to B. Too many lazy passes and of course, inconsistent shooting (that's being kind). Sure, we're as athletic as any team in the league. But we just saw what happens when an athletic team with few players without complete skills, faces a team full of fundamentally skilled players.

[bumpyphish1]

I think part of our team's lack of "ballplayer-ness" is our youth. Marvin and Smoove's skills will continue to drastically improve. But, I see your point.

[TroyMcClure]

All of that stems from a lack of respect towards certain types of players by our GM and coach. A lot of it seems to be race related, imo. That's not entirely fair. We passed on Raja Bell, too. Wait a minute, what color is he exactly? Who cares. He would make us a solid 4 seed, I know that. We've had Doleac, Barry, Prizbilla, Pollard, etc. They weren't athletic enough for us, yet they are somehow still in the league except for Barry. And he contributed for Houston after getting needles in his butt here. I'm not saying anyone has been racist. I just think that the slower, less athletic player and his skill set, no matter the color, have been overlooked by this organization for quite a while.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you let people who were losers as pros run your organization, there is a strong possibility that your org will lose.

[ncthompson11]

agreed. Our GM would probably would take Marcus Camby over Dirk just because Camby is black. I know thats not a good camparison but oh well. BK would take Jameer Nelson over Steve Nash and his excuse would be Nash is older. Its just stupid and its never going to change with him. He always drafts guys who arent very skilled but can make up for it with athleticism. Look at Solomon Jones. Hes a project and we could have taken an International guy who no one knows about and be looked at as a steal. Instead we take guys who dont have any skills and would take 5 years to be even worth anything.

[DJlaysitup]

I agree to a point but I really don't think race is the main factor. There have been white athletes without sufficient skills in this league and black players who are skilled and not that athletic.

I think BK is just a weird bird...too much of a dreamer. I mean - everybody and their brother wanted Milsap in the second round - ditto (at least for some of us) with Big Baby Davis (although we had already traded that pick for AJ). Anyway, bottom line is those guys are on the Jazz and the Celtics and doing well and BK is still searching for his "Diamond in the rough".

All GM's occasionally make a mistake - nobody is perfect - but the way it usually works is - you make too many mistakes and they show you the door.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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All of that stems from a lack of respect towards certain types of players by our GM and coach. A lot of it seems to be race related, imo. That's not entirely fair. We passed on Raja Bell, too. Wait a minute, what color is he exactly? Who cares. He would make us a solid 4 seed, I know that. We've had Doleac, Barry, Prizbilla, Pollard . . .

( wow, so those guys make us better? )

. . . etc. They weren't athletic enough for us, yet they are somehow still in the league except for Barry. And he contributed for Houston after getting needles in his butt here.

I'm not saying anyone has been racist. . . .

( lol . . yeah you did, in the 2nd sentence you typed )

. . . I just think that the slower, less athletic player and his skill set, no matter the color, have been overlooked by this organization for quite a while.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you let people who were losers as pros run your organization, there is a strong possibility that your org will lose.

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This is by far your weakest argument of all time. Throwing out the race card? Come on man, you can do better than that.

BK is the same guy that contemplated Yi @ #3 . . would've taken Bargnani @ #5 if he were available . . drafted Cenk . . brought in Batitisa, Zaza . . and Matt Freije . . and Edwards . . Collier happen to die . . and he either drafted Dickau or Eminem ( Travis Hansen )

. . yet, the best you can do is cite the white guys that weren't retained to back you your claim that BK has a conspiracy against white pkayers? White guys who are ALL riding the pine for the most part, for their respective teams? White guys that didn't help us win jack ish when they were here?

( in my Eddie Murphy Italian voice )

GTFOH !!!!

[TroyMcClure]

I'll accept your racist remark because you are black and I guess you can do that.

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White guys that didn't help us win jack ish when they were here?

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They were never even given the chance and some of them have gone on to win in the playoffs and even win a title. But they didn't do jack ish enough to help the Hawks? Yeah, we're too good for role players. I wasn't talking about BK directly. Pete was at fault for this kind of drafting as well. I'm talking about perception and the perception is that athletic guys are valued over basketball gym rats who can shoot and understand the game at a high level.

I'm usually the only white guy within 5 miles of a basketball court or gym. You think I don't know the deal? No black guy has ever made fun of a white person's athleticism, right? *crickets*

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I just think that the slower, less athletic player and his skill set, no matter the color, have been overlooked by this organization for quite a while.

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Why do you overlook what I'm saying and just brand me as playing the race card? If you don't think race plays a factor in people's perceptions, you are crazy. Especially considering how you have perceived something about me and felt it ok to express that with your little Eddie Murphy quote. Just because I'm white doesn't make me anything close to Itallian. But that's ok because you are not white, right?

I just said something seemed to be somewhat race related. But I'm the one playing the race card? What a double standard. Naw, you're right only white people have been racist over the whole of human existence.

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. . yet, the best you can do is cite the white guys that weren't retained to back you your claim that BK has a conspiracy against white pkayers?

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Who said "conspiracy"? I just think he is dumb and clouded by perceptions. Whether that is a perception of what a 6'9" guy can do for matchups or what someone who isn't 6'9" can't do. Either way, he's got a cloudy vision.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I'm not the one who brought up the race issue, you did. Like someone else said, BK can be criticized for maybe having a warped vision on how to build a team. But you're the one that suggest that this may have something to do with race. All I did was call you out on it.

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I'll accept your racist remark because you are black and I guess you can do that.

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LOL . . which one of my remarks were racist? I mean, it would've been one thing if you cited Bobby Sura for your rant. When Bobby was here, he was a baller. Too bad his injuries derailed his career. But Bobby doesn't fit the type of player you're talking about because Bobby had a little "streetball" in his game.

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They were never even given the chance and some of them have gone on to win in the playoffs and even win a title. But they didn't do jack ish enough to help the Hawks? Yeah, we're too good for role players. I wasn't talking about BK directly. Pete was at fault for this kind of drafting as well. I'm talking about perception and the perception is that athletic guys are valued over basketball gym rats who can shoot and understand the game at a high level.

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The entire NBA is at fault for this then, not just us. A perfect example of what you're talking about, is a guy like JJ Redick. JJ was one of the best college shooters I've ever seen. If he has room, and he is squared to the basket, his shot is usually falling.

In college, JJ was dominant over athletic guys and/or less intelligent players. In the NBA, it's a totally different world for JJ.

Here, JJ goes up against ELITE LEVEL athletes. Here, JJ has trouble even getting a decent look, because some 6 - 6 shooting guard is either all up in his grill, or is running, jumping, and closing him out so fast, that when he does get the shot off, he's slightly off.

Then on the defensive end, he has absolutely no chance of guarding an elite level athlete that can handle the ball.

The same goes for the guy who beat Team USA in the 2004 Olympics . . Sarunas Jasiikevicus. Remember him? He and that Lithuanian team made our pros look like garbage on the international level. So Indiana says . . "Hey, he played great against Team USA. Surely he can play in the NBA, right?" Umm . . wrong.

Sarunas quickly found out why he didn't drafted coming out of Maryland in the first place. Sarunas was horrible with his man defense, and the looks he got in the Olympics were ptetty much non-existant in the NBA. He had some decent games, but he wasn't good enough to keep putting on the floor.

But to show you that this has nothing to do with race, the same thing happened to these players once they arrived in the NBA:

- Rodney Monroe: Remember him from NC State? To this day, I still say that he and Chris Corchaini ( aka Fire and Ice ), were one of the baddest backcourts I've ever seen in college. Rodney was the Redick-like shooter . . Chris was Nash-like with his passing. Neither did jack ish in the NBA. We drafted Rodney in the 2nd round, bit we quickly found out that he could neither defend, nor create his own shot. I remember being so happy

- Randolph Childress: I still remember me watching his performace in the ACC tournament when that guy hit EVERYTHING he threw up. He gets to the NBA, and becomes completely useless. He's too slow to create his own shot from the PG position, and too slow to guard quick PGs.

Other guys include:

- Shawn Respert ( Michigan St )

- Trajan Langdon ( Duke )

- Mateen Cleaves ( Michigan St )

- Todd Day ( Arkansas )

- Stanley Roberts ( LSU ) . . a guy that some people had ahead of Shaq in that 1st year.

- Miles Simon ( Arizona )

- right now . . Shelden Williams ( Duke )

- right now . . Salim Stoudamire ( Arizona )

- John Wallace ( Syracuse ) . . who I thought might be a star in the pros, with the way he carried that Cuse team that lost to Kentucky in 1996

Every single one of those guys were highly skilled players in college. But because there are so many great athletes in the pros, their effectiveness has been greatly reduced. In college, you could get away with constructing an offense around those types of guys. If you did that in the pros, you'd get killed. Then when you ask these guys to be role players, they can't adapt . . with a lot of that having to do with their lack of atleticism.

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I'm usually the only white guy within 5 miles of a basketball court or gym. You think I don't know the deal? No black guy has ever made fun of a white person's athleticism, right? *crickets*

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LOL . . of course not ( sarcasm ). That's why a guy like you would take advantage of the brotha not taking you serious, and bust his azz right from the jump Then after you've hit your first 4 shots, they try to D you up. By then, it's too late because your team is already up 8 to 3.

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Why do you overlook what I'm saying and just brand me as playing the race card? If you don't think race plays a factor in people's perceptions, you are crazy. Especially considering how you have perceived something about me and felt it ok to express that with your little Eddie Murphy quote. Just because I'm white doesn't make me anything close to Itallian. But that's ok because you are not white, right?

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Because you brought the race issue up. Hard to overlook it, when you immeadately bring it up. Of course race plays a factor in people's perceptions. I just don't think this is the case for it, considering that BK hs brought in those very players that you say he doesn't.

Even Matt Freije from Vandy was a very good, highly skilled player in college. But he goes undrafted because he was too weak to play the 4, and too slow to play the position he's best suited to play . . the 3. I still thought that it was a very good pickup by BK though, because he prolifically shot the 3-ball @ Vandy. He comes to us last year, and he not only can make a 3, he couldn't defend anybody. If Matt could knock down the 3, he would be a godsend for this team right now, especially considering his size.

LOL . . that Eddie Murphy quote had absolutely nothing to do with you being white or you possiby being Italian. I had seen Eddie Murphy "Raw" a few nights ago, and thought the scene when he's describing hid fight with an Italian dude to his father, was hilarious. Eddie is funny when he does the different voices in that scene. And I like how he says GTFOH in his Italian voice. If you thought that was a dig on you, it wasn't. I apologize if you thought it was.

By the way, my opposition to you on this topic isn't personal at all. I was just surprised that you brought the race issue into this, when you and most everybody else just says that BK and Woody are just incompetent.

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I just said something

seemed

to be somewhat race related. But I'm the one playing the race card? What a double standard. Naw, you're right only white people have been racist over the whole of human existence.

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Re-read your 2nd sentence in your post, is all I say. All races can be racist. That's not even the issue here. My grandmother is somewhat racist, so I know blac people can be racist.

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Who said "conspiracy"? I just think he is dumb and clouded by perceptions. Whether that is a perception of what a 6'9" guy can do for matchups or what someone who isn't 6'9" can't do. Either way, he's got a cloudy vision.

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That's all you had to say then, not bring the racial element into the argument. Basically, you're saying tht BK would rather take a Solomon Jones than a Scott Pollard. I say, they both suck in their own way, so it's not a big deal one way oe another. Neither are players that are going to help us win a ton of games.

Don't worry Troy. I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this issue. I won't do what your "arch rival" does with you. I just found it curious how you threw race into this. You can hve the lst word, and this will be done.

[DrReality]

We haven't even begun our road trip and the board is at each other. wait until we've lost 4-5 more.

The talent is there, the coaching is not. The talent showed itself in our win streak and the coaching is showing itself in the losing.

[TroyMcClure]

This isn't something I've stewed over. Just a thought.

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Basically, you're saying tht BK would rather take a Solomon Jones than a Scott Pollard. I say, they both suck in their own way, so it's not a big deal one way oe another. Neither are players that are going to help us win a ton of games.

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Exactly, but Scott Pollard has helped a number of winning teams in his career.

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Shawn Respert ( Michigan St )

- Trajan Langdon ( Duke )

- Mateen Cleaves ( Michigan St )

- Todd Day ( Arkansas )

- Stanley Roberts ( LSU ) . . a guy that some people had ahead of Shaq in that 1st year.

- Miles Simon ( Arizona )

- right now . . Shelden Williams ( Duke )

- right now . . Salim Stoudamire ( Arizona )

- John Wallace ( Syracuse

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All of these players and others that you've mentioned, have never produced at the NBA level for winners. You're missing the point a bit. I'm talking about players that we have tossed aside, yet somehow, winning teams continue to want their services.

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The entire NBA is at fault for this then, not just us.

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Very true, but we are one of, if not the worst violator.

San Antonio can't be thrown in that group, though. Neither can Utah. They have the type of organization that I would prefer to have.

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LOL . . that Eddie Murphy quote had absolutely nothing to do with you being white

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It's all good. That Raw is some of the funniest ish ever. "He slapped all 3 of us your honor, like the three stooges. 12 million!" I paraphrased, but you remember.

[ncthompson11]

northcyde its not that JJ cant score in the NBA, because he scored 10 points in 8 minutes a few nights ago, its just the coaches have in their head he cant play on this level or defend. While he is not known for his D its really not that bad, but its clearly his biggest weakness, but thats because his offense is so good. Theres no doubt in my mind JJ could score 15 a game if he got 25 minutes every night. Especially with teams having to double team Howard in Orlando. If a team would run plays for JJ like Duke did he could score 15 or 20 without having a dominant big man.

[BusBoyIsBack]

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Toronto has a bunch of ball players. Guys who have the basic fundamentals of being able to dribble, pass and shoot.

Our guys seem to struggle dribbling from point A to B. Too many lazy passes and of course, inconsistent shooting (that's being kind). Sure, we're as athletic as any team in the league. But we just saw what happens when an athletic team with few players without complete skills, faces a team full of fundamentally skilled players.

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The difference is that Toronto has an offensive identity.

They have the perimeter game and Bosh in the low post.

There is also movement of the basketball and their players.

We don't have an offensive identity. With our fresh, young athletic legs we should be running teams out of a gym in the open court.

In the half court there should be movement with a bunch of cutters. Players like Smoove and Horford should get the ball on the low block and players like Acie Law and JJ on certain plays should camp around the there point line to create more space and options.

But we have none of that. We have the worst offensive gameplan I've ever seen

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So should we run plays for Salim, seeing that he was a very good collegiate shooter as well? See, this what I'm talking about.

If you play JJ Redick for 25 minutes a game, you better make sure that the 2-guard going up aganst him, doesn't go for 25 or 30 points. And in this league, some of your most prolific scorers play the 2.

If a guy like Joe Johnson sees Redick opposite of him, he salivates. He's way too strong of a player for Redick to handle. A guy like a Monta Ellis is hard for most people to contain. For Redick, it would be a nightmare. So if Redick has an off game, and is giving up a ton of points on the other end, that spells disaster for the Magic.

Same goes for Salim with us. Any big PG can have his way with Salim. And the quick PGs can go right by him. So if he's not completely on his game, he becomes an instant liability. That's the major complaint about Salim, and especially Tyronn Lue. Lue's defensive awareness when his man doesn't have the ball, is just absolutely horrible.

Like I said . . you can run an offense through a player like Redick in college, but it's extremely hard to do it in the pros. Most of your decent offensive threats in the pros can create their own offense.

Like Salim, you'd almost have to use Redick as a first option type player when he's in the game, just to see if you can get quick offense from him. If not, you better play defense or get him out the game real fast.

[ncthompson11]

Salim was a good shooter in college, but he was more off the dribble or spot up than JJ who came off screens better than anyone ive ever seen.

Also how many players in the league can stop guys like Kobe, TMAC, Lebron, D Wade from scoring 30 a night? Not many. How many on this team? Maybe Chillz, maybe West but he doesnt play much. The fact is no one plays too much D in the NBA except the ones who make there pay check that way. JJ is here because he can shoot and score and he hasnt gotten his chance yet.