Legler talks about Woody and other coaches

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On NBA Fastbreak, he talks about coaches calling their simpliest play at the end of games. They showed clips of JJ, Kobe, and Vince all taking tough shots at the end of games. All those teams lost. Turkolgu takes the same type shot, but hits the shot for Orlando to win.

He calls this a popular trend among NBA coaches. He also says that teams that struggle or coaches who don't trust their role players, tend to just put it in their best player's hands, and live or die by them at the end.

Like I told you guys, we're not the only team that plays it just like that.

Legs then goes on to illutrate how it should be done. He uses the Mavericks vs the Clippers.

In the game for Dallas: JT, Eddie Jones, Stackhouse, Dirk, Brandon Bass

- Bass is under the left side of the basket

- Jones is in the far left corner

- Stack is on the top left wing

- Dirk is on the right elbow, about 16 feet away

- JT has the ball on the top right wing with the clock clicking down

5 seconds left.

JT passes to Dirk, who then backs his man down. If no double team comes, he's going to shoot his turnaround jumper over Tim Thomas

4 seconds left.

Brevin Knight, who was guarding JT, drops down to double Dirk. Dirk immeadiately kicks the ball out to JT. As soon as Dirk passed the ball, Eddie Jones races along the baseline to go to the opposite corner, his man goes with him. If JT is open, he takes the shot.

3 seconds

JT, seeing Corey Maggette ( I think ) who was guardng Stack, rotate toward him to contest a potential shot, immeadately swings the ball to Stack on the left top side.

2 seconds

Kaman, who was guarding Bass under the goal, races out to contest Stack's shot. But with Stack behind the 3 point line, he's way too far away to get to him. He's wide open to take the shot.

( Legler points out that the reason why Stack is so wide open, is because of Eddie Jones taking his man to the opposite corner. If he doesn't do this, Eddie's man could rotate up to Stack and contest the shot. Instead, Stack is wide open, and the only guy able to get to him, is 20 feet away )

Stack makes the shot at the buzzer. Mavs win.

For the Hawks to execute something like this, you need JJ in the same position as Dirk, with shooters all around him. AJ, Lue, and Marvin would have to be on the floor, with a guy like Smoove under the goal.

Yesterday, on the possession with 33 seconds left, here's where our guys were on the floor:

- from the jump, the worst thing about this play, is that JJ is literally 40 feet away from the basket when AJ gives him the ball. Hawks are spread completely on the outside with JJ up top with the ball.

- Chill is in the left corner

- AJ is on the left wing

- Smoove is on the right wing

- Marvin is in the right corner

- Woody makes a motion for JJ to go with 10 seconds on the shot clock.

- WOW . . I think this play is set up for Smoove, of all people, to take this shot.

The reason I say that, is because JJ deliberately drove toward Aldridge, who was guardng Smoove on the wing. When Aldridge challenged JJ's dribble, Smoove put his hands up at his waist, ready to receive the pass. He had his hands up before JJ lost control a bit. But Aldridge disruped JJ's dribble enough to throw him off. That's when JJ went into scramble mode. Marvin, who was in the corner, didn't move a muscle.

If JJ doesn't lose his dribble, he's probably passing this ball to Smoove. It would've been interesting to see if he shoots, or passes it to Marvin in the corner.

As for the last play, JJ runs Roy through a double screen at the free throw line. AJ actually screens two people. He screens Outlaw who as guarding Smoove at the top of the key, and Roy at the free throw line.

That double screen has JJ wide open for a 3, except for one thing.

Travis Outlaw.

He blew that play up.

When he went to follow Smoove, AJ picks Outlaw off. At the very last millisecond, he sees that Roy is nowhere near JJ, and peels back to the top of the 3-point line, to go get him. Travis is completely out of control trying to get to JJ, but he recovers just enough to jump at him when JJ releases his shot. JJ also has to contend with James Jones leaving Chill, as he jumps at him as well.

[Diesel]

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On NBA Fastbreak, he talks about coaches calling their simpliest play at the end of games. They showed clips of JJ, Kobe, and Vince all taking tough shots at the end of games. All those teams lost. Turkolgu takes the same type shot, but hits the shot for Orlando to win.

He calls this a popular trend among NBA coaches. He also says that teams that struggle or coaches who don't trust their role players, tend to just put it in their best player's hands, and live or die by them at the end.

Like I told you guys, we're not the only team that plays it just like that.

Legs then goes on to illutrate how it should be done. He uses the Mavericks vs the Clippers.

In the game for Dallas: JT, Eddie Jones, Stackhouse, Dirk, Brandon Bass

- Bass is under the left side of the basket

- Jones is in the far left corner

- Stack is on the top left wing

- Dirk is on the right elbow, about 16 feet away

- JT has the ball on the top right wing with the clock clicking down

5 seconds left.

JT passes to Dirk, who then backs his man down. If no double team comes, he's going to shoot his turnaround jumper over Tim Thomas

4 seconds left.

Brevin Knight, who was guarding JT, drops down to double Dirk. Dirk immeadiately kicks the ball out to JT. As soon as Dirk passed the ball, Eddie Jones races along the baseline to go to the opposite corner, his man goes with him. If JT is open, he takes the shot.

3 seconds

JT, seeing Corey Maggette ( I think ) who was guardng Stack, rotate toward him to contest a potential shot, immeadately swings the ball to Stack on the left top side.

2 seconds

Kaman, who was guarding Bass under the goal, races out to contest Stack's shot. But with Stack behind the 3 point line, he's way too far away to get to him. He's wide open to take the shot.

( Legler points out that the reason why Stack is so wide open, is because of Eddie Jones taking his man to the opposite corner. If he doesn't do this, Eddie's man could rotate up to Stack and contest the shot. Instead, Stack is wide open, and the only guy able to get to him, is 20 feet away )

Stack makes the shot at the buzzer. Mavs win.

For the Hawks to execute something like this, you need JJ in the same position as Dirk, with shooters all around him. AJ, Lue, and Marvin would have to be on the floor, with a guy like Smoove under the goal.

Yesterday, on the possession with 33 seconds left, here's where our guys were on the floor:

- from the jump, the worst thing about this play, is that JJ is literally 40 feet away from the basket when AJ gives him the ball. Hawks are spread completely on the outside with JJ up top with the ball.

- Chill is in the left corner

- AJ is on the left wing

- Smoove is on the right wing

- Marvin is in the right corner

- Woody makes a motion for JJ to go with 10 seconds on the shot clock.

- WOW . . I think this play is set up for Smoove, of all people, to take this shot.

The reason I say that, is because JJ deliberately drove toward Aldridge, who was guardng Smoove on the wing. When Aldridge challenged JJ's dribble, Smoove put his hands up at his waist, ready to receive the pass. He had his hands up before JJ lost control a bit. But Aldridge disruped JJ's dribble enough to throw him off. That's when JJ went into scramble mode. Marvin, who was in the corner, didn't move a muscle.

If JJ doesn't lose his dribble, he's probably passing this ball to Smoove. It would've been interesting to see if he shoots, or passes it to Marvin in the corner.

As for the last play, JJ runs Roy through a double screen at the free throw line. AJ actually screens two people. He screens Outlaw who as guarding Smoove at the top of the key, and Roy at the free throw line.

That double screen has JJ wide open for a 3, except for one thing.

Travis Outlaw.

He blew that play up.

When he went to follow Smoove, AJ picks Outlaw off. At the very last millisecond, he sees that Roy is nowhere near JJ, and peels back to the top of the 3-point line, to go get him. Travis is completely out of control trying to get to JJ, but he recovers just enough to jump at him when JJ releases his shot. JJ also has to contend with James Jones leaving Chill, as he jumps at him as well.

It's true the the NBA is changing... However, putting the ball into the hands of your stars is not something unusual. Think of the many times Jordan pulled it out for the Bulls or Larry for the Cs or Magic for the Lakers. What is ideal is a "Star" who is capable of finding somebody who can score in leiu of himself (see Bulls vs. Suns... Jordan to Grant to Paxson)...

Usually, our problem is that there's no time on the clock when we draw up the last play.

[frosgrim]

Maybe I am not following your post, but it seems like you just showed why Woody doesn't have a clue. He doesn't trust anyone on the team except JJ. Second, he doesn't set the plays up correctly (as you point out).

Thus, your post seems to go against your previous defense of Woodson. Again, maybe I am mis-reading.

For me, though, the Legler article shows exactly what I have said several times. You have to set up other guys to win the game. In the military you have three plans A, B, and the gone to hell plan. The GTH plan is usually the one that gets used as all other plans fail when in contact with the enemy. Woodson really needs to understand that philosophy.

[TexasPete]

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Maybe I am not following your post, but it seems like you just showed why Woody doesn't have a clue. He doesn't trust anyone on the team except JJ. Second, he doesn't set the plays up correctly (as you point out).

Thus, your post seems to go against your previous defense of Woodson. Again, maybe I am mis-reading.

For me, though, the Legler article shows exactly what I have said several times. You have to set up other guys to win the game. In the military you have three plans A, B, and the gone to hell plan. The GTH plan is usually the one that gets used as all other plans fail when in contact with the enemy. Woodson really needs to understand that philosophy.

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I think what Ncyde is saying is that because other teams do it wrong and go one on one, that lets Woodson off the hook. Woody just is following the trends.

Thats the old "everybody is doing it" argument. JJ is hardly in the same class as Kobe or Wade or {insert superstar]. JJ is a very poor man's superstar but Woody doesnt get that part.

We would be much better making them play 5 guys, something totally above Woodys head.

[thesheedera]

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I think what Ncyde is saying is that because other teams do it wrong and go one on one, that lets Woodson off the hook. Woody just is following the trends.

Thats the old "everybody is doing it" argument. JJ is hardly in the same class as Kobe or Wade or {insert superstar].

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Plus, he isn't 100% and wasn't having a dominating kind of night.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Maybe I am not following your post, but it seems like you just showed why Woody doesn't have a clue. He doesn't trust anyone on the team except JJ. Second, he doesn't set the plays up correctly (as you point out).

Thus, your post seems to go against your previous defense of Woodson. Again, maybe I am mis-reading.

For me, though, the Legler article shows exactly what I have said several times. You have to set up other guys to win the game. In the military you have three plans A, B, and the gone to hell plan. The GTH plan is usually the one that gets used as all other plans fail when in contact with the enemy. Woodson really needs to understand that philosophy.

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What I try to do Frog, is not defend Woodson. I just try to illustrate to people that the things he does througout a game, are more of the norm of what everybody else does, rather than him being totally clueless. That's why I contend that he's an average coach, and not the worst coach in the league.

It's like the example in the thread yesterday I gave, about how NFL coaches play with the lead toward the end of a game. 75% of coaches do nothing but run the ball when the clock goes under 3 minutes, to either run the clock down, or force the other team to burn their timeouts. Only the coaches who are supremely confident in their players or offensive system, will attempt a pass to get a first down, which will potentially seal the victory.

It's pretty obvious that Woody trusts two people on this team durnig late game situatons . . JJ and sometimes Lue. It was just interesting to see on the play that we ran with 33 seconds left who was on the floor and the play that was ran. It was almost like JJ wanted to draw the double, so he could pass the ball off. With that amount of time left, I'd much rather give the ball to JJ exactly where Avery had Dirk get the ball.

What Dallas did on their last play, is an example of what great coaching and trust in all of your players, can get you. If Avery can get that team to play tough all the time, he's going to win a title very soon.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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I think what Ncyde is saying is that because other teams do it wrong and go one on one, that lets Woodson off the hook. Woody just is following the trends.

Thats the old "everybody is doing it" argument. JJ is hardly in the same class as Kobe or Wade or {insert superstar]. JJ is a very poor man's superstar but Woody doesnt get that part.

We would be much better making them play 5 guys, something totally above Woodys head.

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Yeah . . sort of.

It's not like JJ always fails when his number is called at the end though. He's made many shots over the last 2+ years here in the final minute, that have either got us back in a game or won it. He's also passed to other people, mainly Smoove, so that he can take a late game shot. He's done that twice this year at least. He has shown to possess some of that same clutch play that the superstars have.

But like you said, Woody doesn't trust the other players on the court to make plays. If they do make a play, it's because JJ has passed them the ball, instead of forcing up a tough shot.

Woody would rather give JJ all of the options to either take the shot, or make the play for others, instead of drawing up a ply in which JJ is a decoy for a guy like Smoove or Marvin to get a wide open look.

[coachx]

Thanks for adding some genuine insite to the board.

We don't see enough of this anymore around here.

[JackB1]

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On NBA Fastbreak, he talks about coaches calling their simpliest play at the end of games. They showed clips of JJ, Kobe, and Vince all taking tough shots at the end of games. All those teams lost. Turkolgu takes the same type shot, but hits the shot for Orlando to win.

He calls this a popular trend among NBA coaches. He also says that teams that struggle or coaches who don't trust their role players, tend to just put it in their best player's hands, and live or die by them at the end.

Like I told you guys, we're not the only team that plays it just like that.

Legs then goes on to illutrate how it should be done. He uses the Mavericks vs the Clippers.

In the game for Dallas: JT, Eddie Jones, Stackhouse, Dirk, Brandon Bass

- Bass is under the left side of the basket

- Jones is in the far left corner

- Stack is on the top left wing

- Dirk is on the right elbow, about 16 feet away

- JT has the ball on the top right wing with the clock clicking down

5 seconds left.

JT passes to Dirk, who then backs his man down. If no double team comes, he's going to shoot his turnaround jumper over Tim Thomas

4 seconds left.

Brevin Knight, who was guarding JT, drops down to double Dirk. Dirk immeadiately kicks the ball out to JT. As soon as Dirk passed the ball, Eddie Jones races along the baseline to go to the opposite corner, his man goes with him. If JT is open, he takes the shot.

3 seconds

JT, seeing Corey Maggette ( I think ) who was guardng Stack, rotate toward him to contest a potential shot, immeadately swings the ball to Stack on the left top side.

2 seconds

Kaman, who was guarding Bass under the goal, races out to contest Stack's shot. But with Stack behind the 3 point line, he's way too far away to get to him. He's wide open to take the shot.

( Legler points out that the reason why Stack is so wide open, is because of Eddie Jones taking his man to the opposite corner. If he doesn't do this, Eddie's man could rotate up to Stack and contest the shot. Instead, Stack is wide open, and the only guy able to get to him, is 20 feet away )

Stack makes the shot at the buzzer. Mavs win.

For the Hawks to execute something like this, you need JJ in the same position as Dirk, with shooters all around him. AJ, Lue, and Marvin would have to be on the floor, with a guy like Smoove under the goal.

Yesterday, on the possession with 33 seconds left, here's where our guys were on the floor:

- from the jump, the worst thing about this play, is that JJ is literally 40 feet away from the basket when AJ gives him the ball. Hawks are spread completely on the outside with JJ up top with the ball.

- Chill is in the left corner

- AJ is on the left wing

- Smoove is on the right wing

- Marvin is in the right corner

- Woody makes a motion for JJ to go with 10 seconds on the shot clock.

- WOW . . I think this play is set up for Smoove, of all people, to take this shot.

The reason I say that, is because JJ deliberately drove toward Aldridge, who was guardng Smoove on the wing. When Aldridge challenged JJ's dribble, Smoove put his hands up at his waist, ready to receive the pass. He had his hands up before JJ lost control a bit. But Aldridge disruped JJ's dribble enough to throw him off. That's when JJ went into scramble mode. Marvin, who was in the corner, didn't move a muscle.

If JJ doesn't lose his dribble, he's probably passing this ball to Smoove. It would've been interesting to see if he shoots, or passes it to Marvin in the corner.

As for the last play, JJ runs Roy through a double screen at the free throw line. AJ actually screens two people. He screens Outlaw who as guarding Smoove at the top of the key, and Roy at the free throw line.

That double screen has JJ wide open for a 3, except for one thing.

Travis Outlaw.

He blew that play up.

When he went to follow Smoove, AJ picks Outlaw off. At the very last millisecond, he sees that Roy is nowhere near JJ, and peels back to the top of the 3-point line, to go get him. Travis is completely out of control trying to get to JJ, but he recovers just enough to jump at him when JJ releases his shot. JJ also has to contend with James Jones leaving Chill, as he jumps at him as well.

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Great post Northclyde....my main problem with that LAST playcall was that were were only down by 1! Why go for a three unless it's there and wide open? Try and find someone cutting to the hoop and if you don't make the shot you probably draw the foul. What we need is a "PLAN B" for when J.J. is smothered and J.J. needs to recognize it before he loses control. We have one of the most athletic players in the league in Smoove and we don't take advantage of it. How about setting a pick for Smoove along the baseline and send him up for an alley-oop in that situation. If it didn't work, I would be like "wow, at least they tried something different". JJ can't be the bail out man EVERY TIME.

[Diesel]

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I think what Ncyde is saying is that because other teams do it wrong and go one on one, that lets Woodson off the hook. Woody just is following the trends.

Thats the old "everybody is doing it" argument. JJ is hardly in the same class as Kobe or Wade or {insert superstar]. JJ is a very poor man's superstar but Woody doesnt get that part.

We would be much better making them play 5 guys, something totally above Woodys head.

---

Yeah . . sort of.

It's not like JJ always fails when his number is called at the end though. He's made many shots over the last 2+ years here in the final minute, that have either got us back in a game or won it. He's also passed to other people, mainly Smoove, so that he can take a late game shot. He's done that twice this year at least. He has shown to possess some of that same clutch play that the superstars have.

But like you said, Woody doesn't trust the other players on the court to make plays. If they do make a play, it's because JJ has passed them the ball, instead of forcing up a tough shot.

Woody would rather give JJ all of the options to either take the shot, or make the play for others, instead of drawing up a ply in which JJ is a decoy for a guy like Smoove or Marvin to get a wide open look.

I can't really point the finger of blame on Woody for starting with JJ.

Some of you guys are really fickle.

If Woody had plays drawn up for Lue to shoot the final shot or for the ball to go into Horf or Young Vlade...... You guys would complain that JJ is the star and he should have the last shot... However, when the ball goes into JJ and he decides what to do... You guys barf at that too. For years, I watched Jordan get the ball on the last possession. Now I watch Kobe, James, and Wade get the ball. This is true for most cases. The star usually gets the ball to make the decision.

[thesheedera]

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I think what Ncyde is saying is that because other teams do it wrong and go one on one, that lets Woodson off the hook. Woody just is following the trends.

Thats the old "everybody is doing it" argument. JJ is hardly in the same class as Kobe or Wade or {insert superstar]. JJ is a very poor man's superstar but Woody doesnt get that part.

We would be much better making them play 5 guys, something totally above Woodys head.

---

Yeah . . sort of.

It's not like JJ always fails when his number is called at the end though. He's made many shots over the last 2+ years here in the final minute, that have either got us back in a game or won it. He's also passed to other people, mainly Smoove, so that he can take a late game shot. He's done that twice this year at least. He has shown to possess some of that same clutch play that the superstars have.

But like you said, Woody doesn't trust the other players on the court to make plays. If they do make a play, it's because JJ has passed them the ball, instead of forcing up a tough shot.

Woody would rather give JJ all of the options to either take the shot, or make the play for others, instead of drawing up a ply in which JJ is a decoy for a guy like Smoove or Marvin to get a wide open look.

I can't really point the finger of blame on Woody for starting with JJ.

Some of you guys are really fickle.

If Woody had plays drawn up for Lue to shoot the final shot or for the ball to go into Horf or Young Vlade...... You guys would complain that JJ is the star and he should have the last shot... However, when the ball goes into JJ and he decides what to do... You guys barf at that too. For years, I watched Jordan get the ball on the last possession. Now I watch Kobe, James, and Wade get the ball. This is true for most cases. The star usually gets the ball to make the decision.

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I don't have any problem with the "who", it's the "how". At no point in the final minutes did it look like we were executing something that agve us a good chance to score. JJ's our most accomplished end of game performer, so he SHOULD have an opportunity to make a play. But we went to the iso over and over and over again and it simply wasn't working. No screens, no passing, no nothing. Just dribble out the clock and hope JJ drills the fade away jumper.

It's possible that JJ just didn't execute as Woody drew it up, or that he abaondoned the play altogether, but it looked to me like there simply wasn't a plan.

[TheDude]

sounds like the entire thing comes down to passing to whose open...simple stuff it seems....guy gets doubleteamed, somebody is open, pass it until somebody has the best look...

[Diesel]

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I think what Ncyde is saying is that because other teams do it wrong and go one on one, that lets Woodson off the hook. Woody just is following the trends.

Thats the old "everybody is doing it" argument. JJ is hardly in the same class as Kobe or Wade or {insert superstar]. JJ is a very poor man's superstar but Woody doesnt get that part.

We would be much better making them play 5 guys, something totally above Woodys head.

---

Yeah . . sort of.

It's not like JJ always fails when his number is called at the end though. He's made many shots over the last 2+ years here in the final minute, that have either got us back in a game or won it. He's also passed to other people, mainly Smoove, so that he can take a late game shot. He's done that twice this year at least. He has shown to possess some of that same clutch play that the superstars have.

But like you said, Woody doesn't trust the other players on the court to make plays. If they do make a play, it's because JJ has passed them the ball, instead of forcing up a tough shot.

Woody would rather give JJ all of the options to either take the shot, or make the play for others, instead of drawing up a ply in which JJ is a decoy for a guy like Smoove or Marvin to get a wide open look.

I can't really point the finger of blame on Woody for starting with JJ.

Some of you guys are really fickle.

If Woody had plays drawn up for Lue to shoot the final shot or for the ball to go into Horf or Young Vlade...... You guys would complain that JJ is the star and he should have the last shot... However, when the ball goes into JJ and he decides what to do... You guys barf at that too. For years, I watched Jordan get the ball on the last possession. Now I watch Kobe, James, and Wade get the ball. This is true for most cases. The star usually gets the ball to make the decision.

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I don't have any problem with the "who", it's the "how". At no point in the final minutes did it look like we were executing something that agve us a good chance to score. JJ's our most accomplished end of game performer, so he SHOULD have an opportunity to make a play. But we went to the iso over and over and over again and it simply wasn't working. No screens, no passing, no nothing. Just dribble out the clock and hope JJ drills the fade away jumper.

It's possible that JJ just didn't execute as Woody drew it up, or that he abaondoned the play altogether, but it looked to me like there simply wasn't a plan.

In that... I agree. We should at least have a plan... We squandered so much..

[frosgrim]

[quote

What I try to do Frog, is not defend Woodson. I just try to illustrate to people that the things he does througout a game, are more of the norm of what everybody else does, rather than him being totally clueless. That's why I contend that he's an average coach, and not the worst coach in the league.

It's like the example in the thread yesterday I gave, about how NFL coaches play with the lead toward the end of a game. 75% of coaches do nothing but run the ball when the clock goes under 3 minutes, to either run the clock down, or force the other team to burn their timeouts. Only the coaches who are supremely confident in their players or offensive system, will attempt a pass to get a first down, which will potentially seal the victory.

It's pretty obvious that Woody trusts two people on this team durnig late game situatons . . JJ and sometimes Lue. It was just interesting to see on the play that we ran with 33 seconds left who was on the floor and the play that was ran. It was almost like JJ wanted to draw the double, so he could pass the ball off. With that amount of time left, I'd much rather give the ball to JJ exactly where Avery had Dirk get the ball.

What Dallas did on their last play, is an example of what great coaching and trust in all of your players, can get you. If Avery can get that team to play tough all the time, he's going to win a title very soon.

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I think I understand why you contend that Woodson is an average coach, but there are multiple other factors that lead me to the conclusion that the guy is a below average head coach. Examples below:

1) Substitutions- mis-timed and at times forgetting who is on the court/bench

2) Contentiouness with players- the fact that Woodson and AJ got into it is good evidence that Woodson has some serious communication issues. AJ is reportedly an extremely easy going and nice guy. To tick-off AJ takes work.

3)The staunch refusal to change philosophy. The assemblage of players dictates one type of game, yet Woodson insists on playing his way. Good coaches tend tailor their teams to their players' strengths.

The list can go on, but I think we've aired these issues for a while.

The real crux of the matter comes down to: Can the Hawks find a better coach than Mike Woodson? If the answer is "yes", then that avenue should be pursued.

[bonethugz]

this is a young team that's growing. why not give it to somebody else besides jj? somebody needs to learn how to shoot the last shot. i like the idea of getting josh smith for an alley-oop. or why not let marvin shoot a 15 footer? maybe law for a cutting basket? or heck get salim to shoot a 3

[Atlantaholic]

The whole time I'm thinking... give Marvin a shot coach... He has pretty much made 65% of his shots the last two games